Squad preference is going away for a month

[Tornadium]

I've never seen a group of people who buddy up ever once completely freeze out a new player who didn't know what they were doing. If someone has a question in LOOC, someone will give them their answer.

That said, personal opinion, no one's obligated to hold the hand of people playing the server for the first time. There's a reason Mentors exist, and it's not to play secretary to the Mod-team's ahelps.

If players are acting hostile to newcomers, that's not the squad preference system corrupting their good nature; they're just assholes.

I would disagree entirely, I see it quite literally every time I play with a few exceptions. I've seen everything from new players being ignored to outright letting them be killed or captured without an attempt to assist.

No one is obligated to hold anyone's hand but from personal experience and anecdotal evidence from other players, the community aspect of the game is kinda going down the shitter with the sheer amount of meta-cliques. It has nothing to do with the squad system but it's removal does make these cases more prominent and noticeable to the moderators. At least it's solid data from which to base a response from.

Well sorry to break it to ya pal, but thats how some people play the game, im one of them.

I want to shoot shit, not RP.

The RP that does exist however is from the band of regular players that do create a atmosphere,which i notice whether i want to or not.

So this is actually targeting them players, not me, as i already just stated, i wont be going about it really any differently.Almost unaffected.

Again I would disagree, This test will highlight the full extent of the problem making it more noticeable to moderators and players alike.

Obviously you play the game the way you want to, not disputing that or wanting to restrict anyone but I do believe that some kind of response to the issue is warranted.

[BillyBoBBizWorth]

There's a reason Mentors exist, and it's not to play secretary to the Mod-team's ahelps.

Interesting point you made there about the mod..i meant mentors.I get that vibe when asking a question sometimes, and im not exactly a new player.

[BillyBoBBizWorth]

Again I would disagree, This test will highlight the full extent of the problem making it more noticeable to moderators and players alike.

Obviously you play the game the way you want to, not disputing that or wanting to restrict anyone but I do believe that some kind of response to the issue is warranted.

Hey, dont get me wrong, im actually interested in the results myself, even with the length being as long as it is, it should give a clear set of notable points once its over.

Bring it on i say!

[Tornadium]

Hey, dont get me wrong, im actually interested in the results myself, even with the length being as long as it is, it should give a clear set of notable points once its over.

Bring it on i say!

It should be very interesting indeed.

I should make it clear, I by no way want people to be forced into particular play styles or be forced to play in a way they don't want to. I just feel that this change might highlight a few key issues and we may find some ways of easing the burden.

[BillyBoBBizWorth]

It should be very interesting indeed.

I should make it clear, I by no way want people to be forced into particular play styles or be forced to play in a way they don't want to. I just feel that this change might highlight a few key issues and we may find some ways of easing the burden.

Agreed,
Another interesting thing is how much effort and time goes into these whole "meta-buddy" type issues, but simple gun changes dont get half the kind of attention or even results...that would result in better gameplay globally because the players would actually enjoy using the stock standard guns they are provided with, that aren't pieces of shit.
Maybe something like this can change the ongoing war against the buddies that meta!

Can we all sit down and talk about stuff like that for a moment? Maybe later you say, ok.

[Rohesie]

If players are acting hostile to newcomers, that's not the squad preference system corrupting their good nature; they're just assholes.

I would disagree entirely, I see it quite literally every time I play with a few exceptions. I've seen everything from new players being ignored to outright letting them be killed or captured without an attempt to assist.

This thread:

viewtopic.php?f=135&t=17554

Just saying...

[Bancrose]

This thread:

viewtopic.php?f=135&t=17554

Just saying...

Is there more context to this? I don't quite understand what that has to do with that.

[Symbiosis]

If you want less MP/CMP beatdowns the answer is simple. There are multiple reports up that showcase CMP’s specifically breaking Marine law (and in most cases being backed up at the Mod level) in both protocol and enforcement. Between them being unanswered and the fact Mods/Admins are stating publically they aren’t handling ahelps with MP’s it’s obvious the problem is deeper than squad preferences.

Hold CMP’s and MP’s accountable to the same degree players are - if not higher, due to their IC and OOC protections. “Punishing” the player base as an excuse for the rash of CMP beheadings is out of touch.

[Tornadium]

If you want less MP/CMP beatdowns the answer is simple. There are multiple reports up that showcase CMP’s specifically breaking Marine law (and in most cases being backed up at the Mod level) in both protocol and enforcement. Between them being unanswered and the fact Mods/Admins are stating publically they aren’t handling ahelps with MP’s it’s obvious the problem is deeper than squad preferences.

Hold CMP’s and MP’s accountable to the same degree players are - if not higher, due to their IC and OOC protections. “Punishing” the player base as an excuse for the rash of CMP beheadings is out of touch.

While I agree with everything you are saying regarding holding MPs and CMPs accountable, I don't believe (at least from personal experience) that the players are the innocent party even slightly.

Playing both MP and as a standard marine (Most often marine) I can maybe count off the number of times I've seen an unjustified arrest on one hand in over a year. Maybe I just don't play enough, or I'm lucky enough to avoid most of the garbage but the vast majority of most situations I see comes about from a Marine acting like an imbecile and thinking they're untouchable. Then whenever the MP enforces Marine Law you see the chat scrolling at the speed of light with the marine in question pouring a spout of verbal diarrhea relating to their innocent, MP corruption etc.

Maybe I just have a one sided view of it or maybe I haven't been exposed nearly enough to the problem but I really really don't see it.

[awan]

If you want less MP/CMP beatdowns the answer is simple. There are multiple reports up that showcase CMP’s specifically breaking Marine law (and in most cases being backed up at the Mod level) in both protocol and enforcement. Between them being unanswered and the fact Mods/Admins are stating publically they aren’t handling ahelps with MP’s it’s obvious the problem is deeper than squad preferences.

Hold CMP’s and MP’s accountable to the same degree players are - if not higher, due to their IC and OOC protections. “Punishing” the player base as an excuse for the rash of CMP beheadings is out of touch.

You do realize most players most often only get what in my opinion is a slap on the wrist. We are soft on punishements compared to other server. And give quite a few warnings so that people can approve.

And it is not transparant at all perhaps for good reason.

I do agree that to many marine law ahelps go unawnsered and I can blame that on 5 things. 1. Even staff does not know exactly what rahl his mindset is thus it is always up for interpertation. The dangerous part of the job. 2. A lot of mods and people dislike confrontations. You do not want to be the mod who hands out 60% more punishments or who is seen as harsh. 3. People try to refuse certain mods handeling ahelps. You dont get to choose who handles it but if you start refusing people it leads to less help. 4. These issues are getting big enough that most start will be (in) directly invovled and wont take it because of policy. 5. No one is ever happy both the player and mp will go to hell to defend their actions these are just not fun chains to resolve and take quite some energy.

!	Message from: awan
	the above is my opinion and other staff/people may disagree.

[Symbiosis]

You do realize most players most often only get what in my opinion is a slap on the wrist. We are soft on punishements compared to other server. And give quite a few warnings so that people can approve.

And it is not transparant at all perhaps for good reason.

I do agree that to many marine law ahelps go unawnsered and I can blame that on 5 things. 1. Even staff does not know exactly what rahl his mindset is thus it is always up for interpertation. The dangerous part of the job. 2. A lot of mods and people dislike confrontations. You do not want to be the mod who hands out 60% more punishments or who is seen as harsh. 3. People try to refuse certain mods handeling ahelps. You dont get to choose who handles it but if you start refusing people it leads to less help. 4. These issues are getting big enough that most start will be (in) directly invovled and wont take it because of policy. 5. No one is ever happy both the player and mp will go to hell to defend their actions these are just not fun chains to resolve and take quite some energy.

!	Message from: awan
	the above is my opinion and other staff/people may disagree.

I haven’t seen any requests from players to see CMP or MP Players be banned. Only held accountable as the rules state they will be. There are player frustrations due to the lack of any accountability on CMP’s being held to the standard they’re supposed to be.

[Kesserline]

I'll explain my point of view with a few things :

FIRST : THIS IS A VIDEOGAME. CHILL MATES.

SECOND : Metabuddies and so what ? I prefer risking to get removed from the round by attempting ANYTHING to save a marine that WORTH it. I'm tired of saving baldies and getting FFed in the back.

THIRD : If you're baldie ? Read the fucking wiki. Read all the fucking guides that many people put on the forums before, and I swear that you won't be a baldie anymore. Be curious, ask questions, don't be a silent cunt, and there will be NOBODY who will dare calling you a baldie.

FOURTH : It's a DAMN MULTIPLAYER, playing with other players. And choosing with whom you want to play is a good thing, not a fucking flaw. Look at all the MMO, look at ALL multiplayer games.

FIFTH : I'm playing Delta, all regulars of Delta are my friends. And there so many people in the other squads that are friends to me too. On the frontline, if I have to stick with some random deltas that I don't know, and some vets from other squads ? Not giving a single fuck, I'll stick with the vets. Because they will shake you when neuro, they will drag you when pounced, they will cover you when you heal. And you'll do all the same for them.

Metabuddying is not a problem. It's the sign that your community/playerbase is not just a gathering of people. It's the sign that people are being friends to each others. It's a good sign, not a fucking flaw. Having friends mean having fun. And this is the goal of any videogame, any gaming communities (except if you want to make some eSport, but I don't think this is the case here.).

You will get the contrary of what you got by removing the general comms for PFCs. You won squad cohesion, by forcing people to only have comms in their squads. You will see many marines entering other squad's preprooms to get headsets, just to play with the squad they want to play.

PLAY. WANT. People want to PLAY. People want to have FUN.

Some are cunts, some are assholes, some masturbates to the winrate ratio. But others want to enjoy themselves. Don't forget that.

[awan]

I haven’t seen any requests from players to see CMP or MP Players be banned. Only held accountable as the rules state they will be. There are player frustrations due to the lack of any accountability on CMP’s being held to the standard they’re supposed to be.

You are being quite vague imo.
What do you consider them being held accountable. Because pm's warnings notes and bans are how they are held accountable. An mp who does not list your charges does not mean you go free it means we correct the issue and let them serve neglect.

[Jeser]

Kesserline nailed it, honestly. I'm quite sure staff were fighting meta-communicating marines before effectively enough.

[Symbiosis]

You are being quite vague imo.
What do you consider them being held accountable. Because pm's warnings notes and bans are how they are held accountable. An mp who does not list your charges does not mean you go free it means we correct the issue and let them serve neglect.

I want MPs to know Marine Law. I’m not being vague. Break marine Law as an MP or CMP face the consequences.

If you’re caught with your pants down, a month job ban cooling period from CMP/MP.

As with squad preferences being removed, a month out isn’t a bad thing. Consider it a test. I’m personally still waiting on a Manager decision on the CMP law break I and the entire Almayer had to deal with. Not to mention the Moderator/Min/Developer death squad we got AFTER the bad Marine Law enforcement/Provost debacle.

All the community wants to see is accountability.

Removing Squad Preferences because MPs are getting beat up is goofy. The MP’s being beat up is a symptom of the lack of accountability that the community is witnessing.

[Rohesie]

Is there more context to this? I don't quite understand what that has to do with that.

I won't expand much on this not to derail the thread, but it's a prime example of hostility to newcomers due to meta-friendships. Read the first two lines in the thread after the greeting, and read what I quoted.

[awan]

I want MPs to know Marine Law. I’m not being vague. Break marine Law as an MP or CMP face the consequences.

If you’re caught with your pants down, a month job ban cooling period from CMP/MP.

As with squad preferences being removed, a month out isn’t a bad thing. Consider it a test. I’m personally still waiting on a Manager decision on the CMP law break I and the entire Almayer had to deal with. Not to mention the Moderator/Min/Developer death squad we got AFTER the bad Marine Law enforcement/Provost debacle.

All the community wants to see is accountability.

Removing Squad Preferences because MPs are getting beat up is goofy. The MP’s being beat up is a symptom of the lack of accountability that the community is witnessing.

In my opinion you were vague because at first you said you want them held accountable and I responded then you replied saying you do not want them banned.
And now you say you do want them banned in this post. I might be miscommunication because I bundled bans and jobbans and you did not.

It states no where you cannot be a hypocrite.
And as I stated before most people do get a slap on the wrist for about the same things.
A commander who does an improper BE most often gets a warning and does not lose their whitelist.
These are handled through player reports and are thus public.
You can look at the cmp reports and see that they often get jobbans.

If we look at the cmp reports they got:
1. Banned already for insulting staff.
viewtopic.php?f=63&t=17830
In my opinion the situation is not handled yet other staff do think it was handled.
I will not comment with my opinion of this situation since this is not the place for that.
2. Handled somewhere else.
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=17788
3. A note.
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=17638
4. dealt with already.
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=17650
5. A talk with their manager.
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=17414
6. An mp jobban
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=17489
7. Already dealt with.
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=17526
8. An mp jobban
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=17011
9. Resolved in favor of cmp.
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=17048
10. An mp jobban
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=16392
11. An mp jobban
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=16882
12. an mp jobban
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=16862
13. Resolved in favor of cmp
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=16723
14. Ic issue
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=16636
15. Resolved in favor of cmp
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=16547
16. Perma banned
viewtopic.php?f=71&t=16227

These are all reports I could find that happened this year.
2/3 Were already dealt with.
3 Were resolved in the favor of the (c)mp.
1 was perma banned from the server
1 was ruled an ic issue
5 Were jobbaned from (c)mp.
1 Got a talk with their manager
1 only got a note
1 Was handled elsewhere

To me that looks like a list of people being held accountable.
Now, try and make that list for commanders who did an improper be.
Because those commanders are getting a warning not a jobban a warning.
And most of the mp's took a player out of the round for a part of the round the commander does that for the entire remaining time in the round.
It is their right to do so but in general we are lacks on cm about these things. Both commanders and mp's only get a slap on the wrist.
Mp's are being held to a higher standard you are not seeing most of it.

[Casany]

Yes, Awan, the reports usually get handled. But the MAJORITY of players do not have an active forum account. FROM YOUR OWN WORDS only ONE was handled in game, the rest were handled out of game. This is fucking stupid in my opinion here. If I have to go out of my way to report an MP or CMP who has obviously broke the guidelines instead of just Ahelping and getting it done there, I'd be less inclined to do so. And I have a forum presence. For a lot of players who are just fucked over they don't even know this forum fucking exists.

So basically the only time a CMP or MP will be handled and have to face consequences is when they're reported, but if you ahelp them ingame nothing will be done. That's what I'm seeing. And if this is the general attitude of staff well what the fuck?

[NorthernMaple]

Hey I think the guys in req,medical and engineering are forming meta cliques, we should disable the option to willingly join those departments.I also see tons of MP's targeting the people in these departments as well so this is very evidently the most obvious solution to the problem and will 100% fix it,there is no other possible solution other then this one. In fact we should make it so that players just randomly get assigned a role, regardless if they want to do it or not.When you hit "ready" or "join game" you could be anything (except for CO, because that whitelisted duh).That way it breaks meta friends and ensures your paired up with a bunch of randoms every game! Why would we ever want squads or departments to recognize each other and from in game friendships,then they might RP as if these people trained together and see them everyday,that would be horrible. I mean in this multiplayer game we shouldn't have people playing together.

Overall i'm glad the admins are involved in the community and make decisions based off of their observations of the game,otherwise they might make wild changes that both dont fix a problem and create new ones. Thank god they don't do that

[awan]

Yes, Awan, the reports usually get handled. But the MAJORITY of players do not have an active forum account. FROM YOUR OWN WORDS only ONE was handled in game, the rest were handled out of game. This is fucking stupid in my opinion here. If I have to go out of my way to report an MP or CMP who has obviously broke the guidelines instead of just Ahelping and getting it done there, I'd be less inclined to do so. And I have a forum presence. For a lot of players who are just fucked over they don't even know this forum fucking exists.

So basically the only time a CMP or MP will be handled and have to face consequences is when they're reported, but if you ahelp them ingame nothing will be done. That's what I'm seeing. And if this is the general attitude of staff well what the fuck?

It will be done but is just not obvious. The first report the player already had a straight up ban when the report was made. Thus it was already handled. Players still do not see the ban and dont know this. The already dealt with are also handled ingame so 4 of these were handled already.

I said 2/3 were dealt with already.
That means handled ingame

We cannot tell you what actions are taken against other players. That is told to me as a rule. Hence it will be avoided by staff to do so. And everything they do does stack.

[ComradeCorbyn]

This is a double edged sword, it helps solves an issue but at what cost?

As for players leaving their assigned squad to join Delta or Charlie, I believe that this could be counter-acted by an active Command staff, like SO's, and SL's. While I definently don't want to ruin anybody's fun as an SO, it's also important for the squad to have cohesion together and stay as a group rather then spreading out all over the map as an unorganized horde. Perhaps new tools can be rolled out soon to help prevent this while maintaining fun and stuff.

Thanks, just my two cents.

[Nantei]

I would disagree entirely, I see it quite literally every time I play with a few exceptions. I've seen everything from new players being ignored to outright letting them be killed or captured without an attempt to assist.

No one is obligated to hold anyone's hand but from personal experience and anecdotal evidence from other players, the community aspect of the game is kinda going down the shitter with the sheer amount of meta-cliques. It has nothing to do with the squad system but it's removal does make these cases more prominent and noticeable to the moderators. At least it's solid data from which to base a response from.




Again I would disagree, This test will highlight the full extent of the problem making it more noticeable to moderators and players alike.

Obviously you play the game the way you want to, not disputing that or wanting to restrict anyone but I do believe that some kind of response to the issue is warranted.

I mean, I see a lot of people saying this, and all I can say is it sounds like there's one particular group of people who are the problem children, and the rest are getting slapped for it.
As a Charlie main, I can assure you that we heavily discourage exclusion like this. I am always trying to help new players, and I know several people who main Charlie who are the same way.

[ComradeCorbyn]

Aswell, forgot to mention this before and it's a bit late, but I see what Emerald is trying to point out.

For example, one round I was the Warrant Officer and an unnamed Delta marine somehow magically managed to get a clown mask that "he couldn't take off." Even though I didn't want to be a hardass, it wasn't a proper military alternative for headwear and he had to take it off. Attempting to reason with him in his prep made another unnamed marine call all of Delta to the prep to "gang up" on me. Eventually, I was talked out of being beaten up and left by another unnamed Delta marine.

In conclusion, Emerald is making a valid point in my eyes. It's difficult to deal with squads like Delta, especially as an MP. But I don't see why this resolution should be made, and competent MPs could easily overcome the Delta issue. However, this was just one moment from one game. It's hard to see what will happen without squad preference on, and it will definently be interesting to see the results.

[NorthernMaple]

Aswell, forgot to mention this before and it's a bit late, but I see what Emerald is trying to point out.

For example, one round I was the Warrant Officer and an unnamed Delta marine somehow magically managed to get a clown mask that "he couldn't take off." Even though I didn't want to be a hardass, it wasn't a proper military alternative for headwear and he had to take it off. Attempting to reason with him in his prep made another unnamed marine call all of Delta to the prep to "gang up" on me. Eventually, I was talked out of being beaten up and left by another unnamed Delta marine.

In conclusion, Emerald is making a valid point in my eyes. It's difficult to deal with squads like Delta, especially as an MP. But I don't see why this resolution should be made, and competent MPs could easily overcome the Delta issue. However, this was just one moment from one game. It's hard to see what will happen without squad preference on, and it will definently be interesting to see the results.

Once again,Delta ruins everything

[Kavlo]

How about when you remove squad preference you also add back in general communications channel for all people.

You wouldn't have massive amounts of marines going into the same squad to talk with their buddies whether it be people they know from in-game or OOC and instead it'd be on an open channel that anyone could chip in on and give useful information while also letting the marine buddies chat with each-other still.
Right now if command isn't listening to your squad and your SL is dead and you don't have a replacement you're fucked squad cohesion wise but at least you had a reliable squad depending on what your squad preference was.