What Xenos Need

[TheMaskedMan2]

Spit is weird, it feels like the chance to hit is the same regardless of distance, I wouldn't mind a change where a pointblank spit is almost guaranteed to hit, but spits from max range are much more unlikely to hit. It just makes it more reliable and predictable, instead of always being based on a flat RNG chance.

[solidfury7]

One of the main reasons I don't play xeno often is because sometimes you can't even get a slot.

You can be sat there for 2 hours without a single spawn.

[Simo94]

It's still one title, so it's not PB and even USCM weapons can miss.

I'm pretty sure acid spits could travel trough disposals. I remember a round where spitter was camping near maintenance in "custodial closet room", or something like that. He was the last alien and he menaged to kill a lot of marines there becouse he could neuro them without risk of being shoot. Marines coming one at the time was a great factor too, but point is that it was, or still is diffrent projectile. Acid/neuro could, or still can also travel trough 3 layers of barricades and you don't have to stand next to first layer to do it.

Yeah, I know that fire deals damage, but there have to be 1 title hallway to deny that area by one flamer. Going trough one title of flames won't hurt you much. Look how xeno players behave around Pyro spec and marines with flamers. Most of them don't care that there is a fire, go, get burned, slash/stun, drag marine and escape.

Or it's just my experience.

neuro has a max range of like 4 tiles, it should NOT miss in that range, its low as shit as it is, u cant neuro ppl without being in buckshot range, idk how ppl dont see this, neuro spits are literally worse than shotgun slugs, what the fuck.

what devs should do is remove the RNG, and also remove stacking neuro stun on already knocked down marines.

[Swagile]

the main problem i find with xeno, and a problem xeno has had (and is KINDA elevated by devs but not fully) is the problem of time

xenos take forever to become the chosen ones so your mostly just sitting there, waiting, and waiting, and waiting till you get to a certain point (Elder as T1, Mature as T2, Mature as T3) to be useful (because young is so weak that you die almost instantly unless you use special pack manuevers).

but the marines know this so they keep pushing hard, and there's nothing you can do unless queen de-volves (further fucking evolving up) and risks herself to keep unga's back

xenos should get stronger faster (aka more ticks on progress) the longer the game goes on, or base stats need to be shifted where you aren't a complete glass cannon as Young / Mature T1, Young T2 and Young T3

its only especially noticeable now because we used to have tackle to equalize the shit stats we had before, but now tackle is shit

[CABAL]

the main problem i find with xeno, and a problem xeno has had (and is KINDA elevated by devs but not fully) is the problem of time

xenos take forever to become the chosen ones so your mostly just sitting there, waiting, and waiting, and waiting till you get to a certain point (Elder as T1, Mature as T2, Mature as T3) to be useful (because young is so weak that you die almost instantly unless you use special pack manuevers).

but the marines know this so they keep pushing hard, and there's nothing you can do unless queen de-volves (further fucking evolving up) and risks herself to keep unga's back

xenos should get stronger faster (aka more ticks on progress) the longer the game goes on, or base stats need to be shifted where you aren't a complete glass cannon as Young / Mature T1, Young T2 and Young T3

its only especially noticeable now because we used to have tackle to equalize the shit stats we had before, but now tackle is shit

I'm not a fan of that. Marines at the beginning are the most powerfull, they can't get any better than the start of the round. They keep this power to the first drop and max 10 minuts later. Xenos are opposite, but they are getting stronger and stronger. From the first second of new round, they are only getting stronger. By the time of first drop, they are between "low-medium" level. If marines don't kill enough of them, then they are reaching point where marines has to lose, it's just a matter of time.

I was thinking about something like "Full Grown" level, between mature and elder. Xenos could "pick" this as larvae, so they will be immediately transfered to this level, but they can't "evolve" anymore. Normal xenos would just skip this "level".

[Garrison]

I'm not a fan of that. Marines at the beginning are the most powerfull, they can't get any better than the start of the round. They keep this power to the first drop and max 10 minuts later. Xenos are opposite, but they are getting stronger and stronger. From the first second of new round, they are only getting stronger. By the time of first drop, they are between "low-medium" level. If marines don't kill enough of them, then they are reaching point where marines has to lose, it's just a matter of time.

I was thinking about something like "Full Grown" level, between mature and elder. Xenos could "pick" this as larvae, so they will be immediately transfered to this level, but they can't "evolve" anymore. Normal xenos would just skip this "level".

This is part of the reason why I wanted the growth from young to mature to speed up. But increasing the time to elder and ancient.

But after reading this post. Maybe the actual issue is the meta? Everything always seems to rely on the first major engagement. If Marines kill enough Xenos, they win by default. But when they get pushed back. Marines typically just 'bleed out' for an hour or two until the Xenos reach full strength and steam roll whomever is still alive.

[Ketrai]

First post here on the forum, would say medium-level player that mostly plays xeno with the occasional survivor.

* Suggestions that may/may not be useful:

- As many have said, buff tackling again. At least for classes for whom it's highly relevant. Like runners, warriors.

- Give burrower a better support role. It takes long to dig tunnels/resin holes. Let them use these abilities more frequently by reducing the cost, or give them a bigger plasma pool. Let them be able to carry huggers/eggs around to fill up their own holes if need be, so they're not wholly reliable on other xenos to be relevant. Basically, make them a dedicated trapper. The last thing we need is a T2 that isn't as useful, or just useful enough to fulfil a niche role, whilst they could've been a lurker. Or even another drone for that matter, then again if you loose a queen you're not likely to win anyways... But at least drones can emit pheromones.

- At the current rate T3's aren't expected to reach ancient. Basically the "you took to long" trigger for marines. Which isn't bad. But the faster games mean you can't mature as easily, let alone grow elder. A lategame T3 is almost useless. Changes these values around a bit. Maybe reward xenos who do well in combat and take risks with tiny buffs?

- Allow more xenos to passively support the burrower. You want teamplay? You can't split up the roles of the praetorian and the boiler. If the boiler isn't bombarding the front, the marines can advance too easily. If the boiler isn't trapping the escape routes, they can get flanked and die. Same goes for the praetorian. The main usefulness of this symbiosis is when the marines aren't here yet, boiler is still maturing. Might as well trap up the hive. (which also unfortunately eats up the burrower's time to dig tunnels again!! aaargh!) Every shot the boiler puts in a trap, is one they can't fire at the muhrines. What if, as long as the boiler isn't firing, he passively builds up sacks of acid? These can't be fired by the boiler. Can't be carried by them. But drone castes can pick them up, and use them to pressurize the resin holes. The sacks themselves wouldn't do much when shot, only if properly secured in a resin hole. Same for praetorian, only slower. Maybe even with diminished effect if he doesn't fill them directly. (4 adjacent tiles instead of all 8) This would allow the burrower to risk itself to set up traps to make it harder for the marines to retreat. Or just make it harder for marines to unga. This also would allow for more area denial from T2-1. I know this is a lil coding work, and may not be the most straightforward.

- More busywork for xenos? RP / fluff? Maybe give xeno corpses more relevancy other than being used to hide those delicious traps in the ground? let xenos "learn" from the experiences of a dead xeno? Drones who inspect them able to find out what they died from, how long they lived for, that kind of stuff. Make it more interesting to play xeno. Naturally most combat chastes don't really have time for this, but there's always these little downtimes waiting for the metal hive, maturing in the hive, and sofort.


* Extra motivation/ pointless lil rant:

I only really came here because I noticed how few xeno victories there have been. Usually only seem to win when the marines mess up somehow, which usually translates to command ordering them to move all over the place, which assures that they get scattered, allowing xenos to pick off one by one.

Most of the time however, we get tier three castes. They throw themselves at combat when young because early unga. Most if not all of them die, usually because they end up flanked or overextend. Marines almost always have a decent chunk of their specs left after they retreat/keep pushing, so the game becomes a set of hide n seek guerilla tactics with an offensive queen. Which can last a bit, unless the marines get organised well enough to corner the queen in the caves. Or the ship for that matter. Always painful to see the queen go to the ship when there's still 30-50 or so staff/marines, and they just get cornered from all directions, except the lower floor, but who uses ladders? I've always found it funny xenos have to move around the ship like any ol marine. It doesn't matter how many ancients you have by then, if marines can just chase you down. Naturally the queen shouldn't have gone into such a tight space to fight.

I feel like numbers are very much a problem. It's a good achievement for the xenos to kill 50-60 marines nowadays, but a good portion of those just gets revived. I don't know if cloning is still a thing, but if it is, that's kinda painful. If xenos are supposed to be strong because of rapid healing, then why can marines come back from the dead, and be back in the fight in mere minutes? A gravely wounded marine still has relevancy and fighting power, broken bones are fixed with a few splints. The only time injuring a marine matters is when you cleanly cut a limb off. Whilst a gravely wounded xeno is just a burden, having to stay back because dieng is too much of a risk. Loosing a tier three is easy, and a big deal. Loosing a spec marine is a bummer, but it's hard to fully loose them in the first place.

I usually play boiler or crusher when possible/needed because those have the highest rate of survivability if one is at least a little mindful of being flanked. Defenders and sentinels are still some of the best T1's, whilst lurkers are best T2.

I don't think endless tackling is fun. But I also find it silly you need two-three xenos to reliable keep a marine down as one goes to swallow them. The nest changes are meh. I get that it's stupid that powergaming xenos knock down marines who struggle instantly by breaking the nest and stunning them. But at least give drones the ability to clean up dead bodies? You're really just encouraging xenos to put marines into crit and let the magical stasis nests keep them alive till hatching, might as well ghost hurdur.

I don't like the fact carrier is T3 now. Really good alien, can't do much alone. Of course most people want to go ravager, so good luck seeing any of these. The carrier has been replaced by the burrower, supposedly an ambuser, flanker. Really just a fraction of a drone, slightly better tunneler than the hivelord, with the gimmick of being capable of making holes it can't do anything with. This would work, if xeno flanking was actually still potent enough. When the marines are assaulting yes, juicy vulnerable flanks. But if they're just held up in an area, you're going to have a harder time. On top of that, if your flank gets flanked, you might as well be responsible for loosing enough xenos that the game is practically over for your side. Usually just gets employed to make an escape route for the benos, only one you can use quite a bit in advance as bigger benos still take 30 seconds or so to climb through.

[Swagile]

I'm not a fan of that. Marines at the beginning are the most powerfull, they can't get any better than the start of the round. They keep this power to the first drop and max 10 minuts later. Xenos are opposite, but they are getting stronger and stronger. From the first second of new round, they are only getting stronger. By the time of first drop, they are between "low-medium" level. If marines don't kill enough of them, then they are reaching point where marines has to lose, it's just a matter of time.

I was thinking about something like "Full Grown" level, between mature and elder. Xenos could "pick" this as larvae, so they will be immediately transfered to this level, but they can't "evolve" anymore. Normal xenos would just skip this "level".

This is part of the reason why I wanted the growth from young to mature to speed up. But increasing the time to elder and ancient.

But after reading this post. Maybe the actual issue is the meta? Everything always seems to rely on the first major engagement. If Marines kill enough Xenos, they win by default. But when they get pushed back. Marines typically just 'bleed out' for an hour or two until the Xenos reach full strength and steam roll whomever is still alive.

this essentially; so much depends on that first engagement that i can reliably tell who will win 80% of the time; 20% accounts for either side having more robust players, or a major fuck up after the first engagement, like an entire squad dying / a T3 being SADAR'd, etc

xeno loss:

young T3's forced to the front and die if marines push

queen forced out of ovi and dies

too many T2's die due to a push

xeno win:

T3's reach mature and are able to keep up a decent amount of pressure (doesn't even have to injure marines; if it scares them enough they won't push, which gives more evo time)

queen stays in ovi / forced out of ovi but keeps up consistent screeches, pheremones, and doesn't die

most T2's live and/or use flank maneuvers to scare the marines even more



there are other factors, but these three main factors for win/loss from the first engagement is all you need to know as a xeno / marine, but mostly as a xeno since xenos have more information available to them than marines do

[kastion]

LOL they made a new lighting change that allows marines to see int he dark on any light colored surface like sand. Holy shit its sooooooooooooooooo bad for xenos

[Ketrai]

LOL they made a new lighting change that allows marines to see int he dark on any light colored surface like sand. Holy shit its sooooooooooooooooo bad for xenos

So you're telling me... They can see in the caves? Most caves have light coloured surfaces except maybe solaris ridge aka big red. At least without resin... Even if this is to encourage weeding, this isn't the right approach, you'll screw over xenos if marines don't even have to flare.

[kastion]

So you're telling me... They can see in the caves? Most caves have light coloured surfaces except maybe solaris ridge aka big red. At least without resin... Even if this is to encourage weeding, this isn't the right approach, you'll screw over xenos if marines don't even have to flare.

bruh you should see what happens if you turn your gamma up. Shit is clear as day even on weeds,

[Ketrai]

bruh you should see what happens if you turn your gamma up. Shit is clear as day even on weeds,

Sounds like something to report on gitlab. As that's easily exploited by marines.

[Gnorse]

yeah cheers I'll totally ruin my eyesight to get a slight advantage over those filthy xeno mains.

[kastion]

yeah cheers I'll totally ruin my eyesight to get a slight advantage over those filthy xeno mains.

Ya darkness isnt a slight advantage its a massive one, but ok.

[CABAL]

Any screenshots? I can't play in dormitory, so I won't experience it myself untill weekend. Black xenos on black weeds with added shade is something that isn't easy to spot. It's quality of live improvement on HvH matches, but for xenos... If you can spot them when they are not moving, then they need auto cloak that depends on light level of the title they are standing.

[kastion]

Any screenshots? I can't play in dormitory, so I won't experience it myself untill weekend. Black xenos on black weeds with added shade is something that isn't easy to spot. It's quality of live improvement on HvH matches, but for xenos... If you can spot them when they are not moving, then they need auto cloak that depends on light level of the title they are standing.

they disabled the update because the gsl master controller was lagging everyone like crazy so cant get any screen shots right now. On weeds its hard to see still but if you turn up your gamma its not so people are gonna cheese it. Its super easy to see on like sand and lgiht colored floor tiles and stuff like that like im talking you can see the xeno not just a thing moving. Like on ice im pretty sure anywhere that isnt cleared of snow will be like its not even dark cause white will be super bright.

[TheMaskedMan2]

Been playing Xeno a lot more and YIKES.

Crushers really need tackle chance back.

[Garrison]

Been playing Xeno a lot more and YIKES.

Crushers really need tackle chance back.

Considering they can break every bone in your body if your knocked down. I dunno if that's a good idea.

I've been playing quite a few rounds lately. and Xenos have been winning at least more then 50% of the rounds I've played. In fairness, I've mostly been playing during mid & low pop rounds. So I have no idea how the high pop rounds fair.

[xXen0zS1ay3rXx]

Considering they can break every bone in your body if your knocked down. I dunno if that's a good idea.

I've been playing quite a few rounds lately. and Xenos have been winning at least more then 50% of the rounds I've played. In fairness, I've mostly been playing during mid & low pop rounds. So I have no idea how the high pop rounds fair.

High Pop is fun, you get to see just how fast briefing can really go as you rush with 80+ of your best mates and bulldoze over the 30 beans and make them rethink their life choices.

[Garrison]

High Pop is fun, you get to see just how fast briefing can really go as you rush with 80+ of your best mates and bulldoze over the 30 beans and make them rethink their life choices.

Really now? Guess I outta try playing Xeno then.

[xXen0zS1ay3rXx]

Really now? Guess I outta try playing Xeno then.

Its a pretty good time to be marine, the benos are just So. Fucking. Bad. it is comical. No idea what the hell the devs are working on, more marine buffs I'd imagine, but yeah I stick almost 99% marine for the roflstomps.

[Swagile]

you know its bad when queen has to come from the front to screech you and 5 other marines in their hive because 5 xenos can't keep us down and nested despite 3 of them being sentinels / spitters, while the other two try to tackle

i hate tackle, but holy shit, does something need to be done

and yeah crusher is absolute TRASH now unless its extremely situational, because marines can just jump on you now that you have shit tackle

in 3x3 to 2x2 hallways, in caves, and as support for a boiler, your OK (not good, just OK, since you can get surrounded and PB shotgunned / spammed by pulse rifle if marines are good) and thats about it

ravager is honestly a better investment nowadays unless you have the situational advantage (like Prison Station and its why most players hate it)

[White]

Any screenshots? I can't play in dormitory, so I won't experience it myself untill weekend. Black xenos on black weeds with added shade is something that isn't easy to spot. It's quality of live improvement on HvH matches, but for xenos... If you can spot them when they are not moving, then they need auto cloak that depends on light level of the title they are standing.

Left - Normal. Right - Gamma Up

► Show Spoiler

[Madventurer]

Yeah, that's a pretty big bug. I can't imagine playing xeno if this gets implemented.

[kastion]

notice on the left side you can still plainly see the xeno even in "pitch black" Im telling you this lighting update is a huge xeno nerf. Im curious if even cloaked lurkers are easy to spot now cause they will become way less useful.