Queens and early deoving: Panic, or old meta habits?

[Renomaki]

Xenos, I know you lot have been going through hard times as of late, what with marines kicking the shit out of you more than you are used to. There are a number of reasons for this of course, but one recurring issue that has been bothering the fuck out of me lately is the habit of a lot of queens to deovi the MOMENT marines threaten the hive, even slightly. There are even times where the moment marines even BEGIN an attack where queens appear to panic and immediately enter combat-mode, only to get killed senselessly at a young age and fuck over the hive.

A part of this could be due to the stress the role carries that creates overreactions to situations that could be handled with tactical thinking and a calm persona, while another part could be just old metas that most xeno players fail to realize no longer work the way they used to. Whatever the case, I think we really need to start rethinking how queens are supposed to be played...

A year ago, when I was just a noob who only viewed CM as a novelty and only really visited it out of curiosity, queens were a strange mix of mobile-production facility and terror weapon. They weren't capable of much tactical thinking nor had any useful abilities other than the infamous screech. All most queens did was run around plopping eggs by the hundreds and sometimes puking up goo that was required for xenos to grow beyond a T1, at least until it was time to go on the attack, then queens would do drive-by screeches in between egg-laying sessions, slowly pushing marines back until they break and flee.

While there were a few updates here and there slightly altering how the queen was played, it still remained mostly the same until Feweh's suggestion was made into reality: The queen having the ability to swap between OVERWATCH mode and COMBAT mode, or ovied and deovied.

While it took some tinkering to get it just right, the current queen's ovi mode allowed queens to finally be able to focus on their strategies and tactics, being able to see what her hive sees (and even beyond their normal line of sight) as well as being able to provide assistance to her vital hivemembers via plasma boost and light healing, vital abilities that can mean the difference between a ravager dying because he got shot up too much and a ravager managing to escape to pounce again another day. And of course, her ability to spread her influence via "leaders", allowing her chosen buff to be emitted via any xeno she chooses.

Meanwhile, her combat form, even with the charge ability removed, is still threatening with it's old screech ability, while also having a far stronger melee attack and the ability to spit, giving her decent means to defend herself and lead the charge.

However, here is the thing, and I recall Feweh made this clear in his suggestion: Combat mode is a last resort, making the queen similar to the "boss fight" of a game. Queens are expected to enter such a mode when the marines are close by and there is no hope of pushing them back with her children alone.

"But Reno" I hear you say, "combat queens are more than capable of supporting the hive, they shouldn't have to constantly remain ovied when the marines are proving difficult to manage". And to that I say: Are you sure about that?

Other than what I mentioned earlier, an Ovied queen is also vital in ensuring her alien swarm is able to keep evolving (xenos upgrade regardless of queen status), so if the hive needs a replacement T3 like a boiler, they are able to do so with ease. Leaders also require the queen to be ovied to continue to spread her "influence", otherwise that little star icon is just for show after she deovis. And while some people might not value it, the ability to spawn one larva every minute {provided there are larva in reserve} is always a good thing to have to keep your forces supplied with a steady stream of reinforcements in the event you have no hosts infested (even if all they'll ever be are T1s). Oh, and I almost forgot that while ovied, you provide the hive with a steady supply of eggs for FREE.

But what of combat queens? Well... They have an AoE ability that stuns everyone around her that can help push back a small marine force... And that is it.

You know, I know I been rambling a lot, but in the end, what I'm trying to say is that maybe it is time we rethink the queen and how she is played, and instead of trying to recreate the old success of Symb's infamous banzi charges, players instead use the queen as was supposedly intended: As a powerful leadership figure who brings organization to her swarm, using her abilities to lead and protect her hive until the marines are crushed. The old days of just screaming at everything is no longer as viable as it used to be, and if some rumors are true, staff are even considering removing the screech ALTOGETHER, meaning queens can't just resort to brute force to solve all their problems anymore, and the aliens under here can't just rely on her screech alone to save them.

Course, what do I know? I play more marine than xeno, but ah, an opinion is just that. What of you?

[CABAL]

Queen have high HP pool, AoE stun and many resistances, giving players so much power. This attracts purely combat players to her, who just want to kill as much as they can and win. Nerfing her combat abilities would discourage selfish players to choose her/or deovi. But that would result in Queen being weaker than ancient T3's

Queen is needed at frontlines becouse there exist only two ways for xenos to breach well manned barricades: Crushers charging and Boiler gas that covers other xenos, so they can slash it. Third option is the screech, something that has to literally freeze marines for few seconds and we all know how fun is to lose control of your character.
Barricades create vicious circle where marines without them can never be safe and with them they are perfectly safe untill Boiler, Crusher, or Queen comes.
This is something that needs to be rethinked.

Since there is no "Whitelist" for Queen and she is the role that bears the biggest amount of responsability, there should be other way. I propose "timer" - 5 hours played as xeno on a server.

Combination of those things left me with one conclusion: Make the Queen 2x2 mob and remove her acid abilities. It's lore friendly and would solve many of existing problems. Queen shouldn't be self-sufficient. Other xenos would have to cooperate to melt some walls for her, aciding walls takes time so it would discourage going into combat.

By just making Queen 2x2 we are changing half of the xeno's meta. We could go even further from that by being even more "lore friendly". Scrap the healing on weeds, make that the Queen produces some kind of fluid that other xenos have to drink to heal. Buff their HP of course, to counter that. This would change another meta. Marines currently have to rush, becouse xenos will always run away to regenerate on one title of weeds.

[Ruse]

I agree with the whole queen size chance but the whole healing thing isn’t exactly fun having to depend on one person for the whole round to progress is pushing it the xenos already depend on the queen a ton and you know how cramped it would be with all the xenos circling around the queen asking for heals when her over watch already serves this purpose when the queen knows what their doing

[kastion]

thread about queen deovi too early, gets derailed by lets nerf xenos in the first response. Do marines ever quit complaining ever?

[Grubstank]

I agree that most queens go to the front too early -- but at the same time, distance is your margin of error. (Without overwhelming odds) the xenos require some amount of ground to sacrifice to inflict casualties and blunt the marine advance. The fact is that there are very, very few things in this meta that can stop a determined marine unga-rush full-on in its tracks (highly capable boilers with similarly competent melee support come to mind). Even then, those methods work better with some wiggle room and fully depend on the skillset of select xenos.

I don't feel there's anything wrong with the queen balance at the moment - that short term benefit in exchange for near-catastrophic long-term consequences is exactly the type of tradeoff that is intended by de-oviing. It can pay off well (I recently had a game where a few other xenos and my elder queen just murdered our way through almost the entire marine ground force until we were finally given enough breathing room to re-ovi) but it can also end in total flubs and queen kills as you describe. The tradeoff works as intended imo

[Reuben Owen]

"But what of combat queens? Well... They have an AoE ability that stuns everyone around her that can help push back a small marine force... And that is it."
screeches help push back the biggest marine forces

generally queens only de-ovi when
a)the other xenos are unable to hold back the marines, however that is entailed for the round + the marines are 'near' the hive/approach is imminent
b)the amount of buried larva is negligible or at 0, and the hive has middling power and is in stalemate
c)the queen has reached elite empress, and the hive has middling power and is in stalemate
d)the xenos have pushed all the way to lz1, but are stuck at its tough defences
e)the xenos have finished all planetside engagement, and only await queen to come so they can move to almayer
f)the xenos have lost a majority/all of their t3, and marines are not pushing hard, but nothing left could really stop them
g)the queen wants to move the hive while it is not under direct threat
h)the queen wants to gather forces for proper attack

losing early t3s will make queens panic a lot, mostly because it leads to a) or f) which are the earliest xeno deovis which is bad bad bad (its a sad time when you lose 20 buried cuz a queen died) and... i dunno its a complex problem, im kinda just rambling here, i would say the deovis are more because of panic/fear than meta... queen is a tough role not gonna lie and most players would rather be "safe than sorry"...the problem being that the "safe" in this case is the deovi, not the ovi, you can actually move around, influence, not feel as shit while everyone is dying while you poop various things

1)you're the most powerful xeno, but
2)not in ovi mode, in which you are a sitting duck, which means
3)you don't want to be in ovi when shit hits the fan, but
4)shit hits the fan a lot so
5)you deovi a lot

[MattAtlas]

As much as I hate to say it combat Queening is necessary right now. Unless you have a VERY robust hive (aka never), you're not making marines evac without the Queen. I don't remember one round ever since the Xeno nerf where the Queen hasn't had to deovi. Simply because xenos on their own cannot breach 'cade lines more often than not.

If the Queen is supposed to be a final boss... then it's a pretty shit final boss ngl. If you deeovi when your hive's already going to shit then most of the time it's already too late.

[Gnorse]

There's nothing a queen can do that a couple of boilers/T3s can't.

[Reuben Owen]

There's nothing a queen can do that a couple of boilers/T3s can't.

yeah a couple... more than 1
problem is that couple is the entirety of the T3 force (4-5 t3 max except on very high pop rounds)
some rounds when marines first engage only have 1-2 T3, or are lacking a boiler entirely, or some of the early t3 gets blown up
pressures the queen to come out

[MattAtlas]

There's nothing a queen can do that a couple of boilers/T3s can't.

Ravagers cannot crowd control. They can hit and run - but it doesn't break down mega FOBs or cave outposts.

Crushers are a literal joke. Don't bring them up unironically.

Praetorian can't crowd control, they can only deny areas. Their acid spray doesn't go past cades.

Boiler gas is not instant and is easily avoidable. There are also only one to two boilers per round. Plus you can continue firing into a boiler cloud and hit anyways with the M41 buffs.

Queen screech is instant + you gain the advantage of an extra combat T4 on the field. Queen also has neuro and very powerful slashes.

[Chaznoodles]

Did someone say devolution?

[z a n e b o t]

queen is the easiest role in the game

[Madventurer]

I only De-ovi when the marines are either completely defeated or there is so much gunfire near the hive that it's hard to focus.

It really feels wrong to go combat queen unless there's no benefit gained in sitting still, which is often late-round only (no larvae left or all evolves done).

And in general, it works out. Surprisingly often xeno team manages to push the marines all the way to FOB, usually completely stomping it. I only occasionally de-ovi when the FOB is just too stubborn nut to crack, but that too requires a waiting period for me, not just poking FOB once.

And the leader pheromones are just too good to pass. If you think they're not worth it, clearly you've never played something like Elder/Ancient Defender with Queen's warding permanently on, wherever they go.

And in general, staying in Ovi shows the xenos that you know what you're doing, they can expect to be healed if they're in urgent need, and that you won't just go full UNGA and charge into the main force alone.

The only times I lose when playing Queen is T3s going full potatomode (I had a team of 2 ravs do a solo flank far outside of weeds with no communications or intel....), and when that happens, it doesn't matter if you de-ovi or not.

IMO Queen is not the boss fight you reach for. She's the boss fight that comes for YOU.

[GoliathTheDespoiler]

There is something everyone here seems to be forgetting:

Staying ovi'd isn't fun or engaging. It's like overwatch, but you get to click every now and then to make a xeno harder to kill. Everything else is effectively just cat-herding: the RTS.

Deoviing is, in my opinion, the most fun part about being a queen, leading charges on LZ1, fending off an aggressive push by the marines, etc. I think Queens have a place in the major conflicts we have in the game, they should be forced to be careful, yes, but they shouldn't be forced to sit in the corner of the map for upwards of an hour effectively doing nothing.

Queens are, at the moment, glorified drones that can also fight better than any other T3 in the game, they get the same amount of aggressive criticism (people immediately calling shit queen, hating noobs, etc.) as a drone, but they get an even more boring job than what a drone normally gets: Sit in a corner, lay eggs, and act like a spawn point. Very fun.

[Gnorse]

While I get that evolved queens can get bored, round start queens have no excuse.

No one forced you to go queen, YOU signed yourself up for the role.
It's like people that go SO and then throw a fit because the aCO refused to let them go down.

[MattAtlas]

While I get that evolved queens can get bored, round start queens have no excuse.

No one forced you to go queen, YOU signed yourself up for the role.
It's like people that go SO and then throw a fit because the aCO refused to let them go down.

Most people go Queen because they want to fight later down the line. Ovi overwatch is fun until an hour in, after that it's just a drag. Late stage Queening is the best part about Queening, and Goliath is complaining that Ovi itself is just boring. If Queens were complete shit in their fighting ability, I can assure you most people wouldn't play Queen.

People sign up to be a Queen because they like fighting on the frontlines. It's just how it is and is going to be if you want to keep a stable Queen population. Nobody wants to play "worse SO" simulator for hours on end.

[Gnorse]

That's the thing. It's a side-effect for keeping the whole charge + armor + damage queen combo for as long as we did. People now expect to fight and be a siege breaker. They shouldn't be.
Queen's a dedicated support role that should only switch to combat mode if shit is REALLY fucked.
otherwise, it's a watered down 2D version of C&C except no one gives a shit about what you're saying.

[MattAtlas]

That's the thing. It's a side-effect for keeping the whole charge + armor + damage queen combo for as long as we did. People now expect to fight and be a siege breaker. They shouldn't be.
Queen's a dedicated support role that should only switch to combat mode if shit is REALLY fucked.
otherwise, it's a watered down 2D version of C&C except no one gives a shit about what you're saying.

Keep it as a dedicated support role and nobody wants to play Queen anymore. If that's the kind of system you want, then I'm not sure what to tell you. Nobody would want to play Queen anymore because ovi is the most BORING mechanic in the entire game after an hour.

[KingPhilipIII]

Keep it as a dedicated support role and nobody wants to play Queen anymore. If that's the kind of system you want, then I'm not sure what to tell you. Nobody would want to play Queen anymore because ovi is the most BORING mechanic in the entire game after an hour.

Entirely opinion. I enjoy slaughtering helpless sheeple (Well. Not that helpless. They have assault rifles.) as much as the next apex predator but some of us derive our enjoyment from this RTSesque style of leadership. It might be less frusterating if the obedience level of xenos could be worked on to make any kind of strategy actually worthwhile.

I usually consider it a failure of my leadership and strategy if I'm forced to de-ovi and fight.

[MattAtlas]

Entirely opinion. I enjoy slaughtering helpless sheeple (Well. Not that helpless. They have assault rifles.) as much as the next apex predator but some of us derive our enjoyment from this RTSesque style of leadership. It might be less frusterating if the obedience level of xenos could be worked on to make any kind of strategy actually worthwhile.

I usually consider it a failure of my leadership and strategy if I'm forced to de-ovi and fight.

It's opinion yeah, but the opinion I've heard the most is that Ovi isn't fun after the first hour. I can see how people would like the Ovi gameplay, but I personally do not.

Most of my strategies involve early de-oviing simply because that's what's fun to me.

[Gnorse]

This is exactly what's causing all these chain marine wins.
good queens can de-ovi early and rush the marines, getting a xeno win in an hour. The rounds after, other (not so good) queens try to replicate the same thing, only to die early and fuck over the hive, giving the marines a win.

and let me tell you, there are more bad queens than there are good ones.

[MattAtlas]

This is exactly what's causing all these chain marine wins.
good queens can de-ovi early and rush the marines, getting a xeno win in an hour. The rounds after, other (not so good) queens try to replicate the same thing, only to die early and fuck over the hive, giving the marines a win.

and let me tell you, there are more bad queens than there are good ones.

In my experience it's just new/bad T3s allowing marines to rush the hive > Queen deovis > Queen is new and can't kite efficiently > marine win.

Haven't seen an early rush deovi ever since the tank removal.

[KingPhilipIII]

The quality of your T3s is definitely the determining factor in the majority of rounds whether the Queen wins or loses. I realize yes the marines can actually show some tact and coordination every few hundred rounds but usually things hinge on the ability of the T3s to rally T2s and 1s around them to repel the marine murderball.

To a lesser extent, it also relies on the quality of the skirmishers to prevent the murderball from getting fresh bodies.

[Grubstank]

The quality of your T3s is definitely the determining factor in the majority of rounds whether the Queen wins or loses. I realize yes the marines can actually show some tact and coordination every few hundred rounds but usually things hinge on the ability of the T3s to rally T2s and 1s around them to repel the marine murderball.

To a lesser extent, it also relies on the quality of the skirmishers to prevent the murderball from getting fresh bodies.

I would definitely agree with this. With that being said though, the general skillset/ballsiness of the rallied T2s/1s is a big factor as well. It's up to the T3s to get them to the place they need to be, and also to initiate each counterpush -- but that all becomes useless if none of your rallied support commits to an engagement.

[AcuteCircle]

Unfortunately as of right now, xenos are weak unless they get to stall to get elder or ancient. A screech from queen is the only way they can fight back quickly approaching marines, which unfortunately requires queen deoving. Metarushing as marines became a pretty common tactic, since young-mature xenos t1 t2 xenos are very weak. Either that or experienced T3 and teamwork combined, which you usually don't get.