Potential Runner buffs?

[chocolate_bickie]

Just wondering what ideas people have for making runners stronger.

One idea is to basically make them a mini ravager, make them fire proof and their pounce do a small amount of damage. Interested to see what other ideas people have since runners are both the most chosen and have the highest mortality of all xenos.

[Ketrai]

Ehh, runners are fine as is I believe. Making pounce deal damage will just increase the amount of annoyance they can wreak. Don't make them fireproof, I can already see runners just charging through flames to pull the flamer into his own flames... just no.

[flying_dice]

Either the leap nerfing gets reverted or runner/lurker need more health. That's the bare-bones of it. If a runner or a non-Ancient lurker gets tagged with buckshot or a BC SG burst, they're gonna die. Hell, if they pounce and there's a second marine around they may well die anyways.

I say this from both perspectives, as a xenos player trying to use them and a marine trying to kill them: you can't have a high-speed/stealthy glass cannon melee class, remove the sole ability they have for closing distance and disabling, and then expect them to be at all useful. Someone said a while back that sentinels are now more effective ambushers because at least they get a reliable stun that doesn't also self-stun, and they're not wrong.

[Grubstank]

Just wondering what ideas people have for making runners stronger.

One idea is to basically make them a mini ravager, make them fire proof and their pounce do a small amount of damage. Interested to see what other ideas people have since runners are both the most chosen and have the highest mortality of all xenos.

Their high mortality is sort of beside the point. If they're consistently chosen above a more combat-effective caste, then the player has clearly weighed the risks and has chosen evo potential above immediate combat-effectiveness.

To put it a different way - why does the most popular caste need buffs to make it even more popular?

[Renomaki]

To put it a different way - why does the most popular caste need buffs to make it even more popular?

People don't pick the runner because it is popular, it is because it is the path to becoming the cooler, more powerful caste: Lurkers and Ravagers.

As for the topic at hand, I think it would be nice if the runner's pounce was at least more effective. Pouncing a marine and having him suddenly get up a split second after makes pouncing worthless for the most part.

It is why lurkers have an easier time killing shit, not just because they are stronger than runners, but also because they are able to PIN DOWN their targets. Runners, however, can't.

Either give em more of a fighting chance when engaging a target, or rework them into becoming a better scout, since we all know that runners can't handle sustained combat for very long.

[Grubstank]

People don't pick the runner because it is popular, it is because it is the path to becoming the cooler, more powerful caste: Lurkers and Ravagers.

Their high mortality is sort of beside the point. If they're consistently chosen above a more combat-effective caste, then the player has clearly weighed the risks and has chosen evo potential above immediate combat-effectiveness.

[Ketrai]

People don't pick the runner because it is popular, it is because it is the path to becoming the cooler, more powerful caste: Lurkers and Ravagers.

Never ever have I seen a single round not contain at least one ravager. They don't usually last very long, but that is besides the point.

[CABAL]

I wouldn't call Runner a combat caste and his low HP and high speed reflects that. Elder and ancient Runners are so fast that you have to be big robusto with good ping to click on it in order to PB.

Runner is a scout for hive, thanks to him and his information Hive know things and information is very deadly. Knowing about flanks, outpost etc in advance is what wins rounds for xenos. Giving runner more "offensive capabilites" would just incourage more front line runners, it would make defender pointless besides protecting boilers and evolving into crusher.

Fire is the only thing that keeps <Ancient runners from running around group of marines who just shoot at themselfs. Not totally brainless runners use fire and even claymores against marines, becouse they can "stunpush" every single marine and just push far nearly every being in the game, with maybe Queen and fortified defender as exeptions.

One good and usefull improvement would be something like defender's tail sweep (causing 100% bleeding, but not IB), becouse you don't need to click on a marine.
Maybe make it automatic (when runner is near marine), but with RNG chance higher with older xenos, but lower with better "CQC" skill. Atleast it would be usefull skill.

BTW: It is possible to "grab" living xeno as marine? That would be cool to catch some pesky ancient runner who then gets shoot by whole squad without realising what happened for a while.

[Anoonki]

BTW: It is possible to "grab" living xeno as marine? That would be cool to catch some pesky ancient runner who then gets shoot by whole squad without realising what happened for a while.

"X Tries To Grab The Ancient Runner(420) And Receives A Tailswipe To The Head!"
X is now stunned

Though you *can* grab downed xenos, and table stunlock them with an aggressive grab.

[GoliathTheDespoiler]

Honestly, I'd just have runners have a damage-on-pounce, like a ravager's slash.

Also increase the stuntime by like, another 2 seconds.

[flying_dice]

Their high mortality is sort of beside the point. If they're consistently chosen above a more combat-effective caste, then the player has clearly weighed the risks and has chosen evo potential above immediate combat-effectiveness.

To put it a different way - why does the most popular caste need buffs to make it even more popular?

People pick them because they're fast and slashy.

People also get double-bladed eswords as traitor on other stations when there is a multitude of vastly more effective choices. Something being popular doesn't make it good. See: every round's deathfeed being full of runners and lurkers.

[Grubstank]

People pick them because they're fast and slashy.

People also get double-bladed eswords as traitor on other stations when there is a multitude of vastly more effective choices. Something being popular doesn't make it good. See: every round's deathfeed being full of runners and lurkers.

I'm not saying runners don't suck at combat. I'm saying that runners being popular removes the reason to buff them. The fact that runners are useless is pretty much a major balancing point -- if xenos were to suddenly lose their larva tax (AND that tax suddenly starts kicking ass), it would have wide-reaching effects. For one reason or another runners see a fair bit of play, and can actually serve a lot of important logistics functions. There's not really a good reason to buff them from a balance perspective.

[LittleBlast]

What I want is significantly faster HPregeneration, so they can get in and out of fights and not have to wait forever between them.

[GoliathTheDespoiler]

What I want is significantly faster HPregeneration, so they can get in and out of fights and not have to wait forever between them.

Xenos are already VASTLY faster at healing than a marine, if it went any faster they'd probably regen whilst being shot.

I strongly disagree.

[kastion]

Honestly, I'd just have runners have a damage-on-pounce, like a ravager's slash.

Also increase the stuntime by like, another 2 seconds.

I want your idea but I think 2 seconds is way too much. Just boost it by .5 more seconds and that allows time to actually slash someone or try to stun them. There are times that the player gets up faster than I can even click none the less accurately click.

Alternatively don't buff the stun at all and make xeno sprites not clickable by themselves. That way I can just click on myself and slash whatevers under me instead of having to pinpoint the 3 pixels that my sprite doesn't cover up and you can even nerf lurker pounces then for all I care.

[Madventurer]

....the player has clearly weighed the risks...

I'm not sure you're familiar with the mindset of the average runner->lurker player.
If you've ever played TF2, you'll notice that any public server has roughly 50% of the team be snipers and spies. Not because they're good, but because they think of all awesome coolstuff you can potentially do, not what they can actually do.

[flying_dice]

Xenos are already VASTLY faster at healing than a marine, if it went any faster they'd probably regen whilst being shot.

I strongly disagree.

Lolwut.

If a xeno gets hurt, they have to run away and lie down on weeds for as much as a minute, if not more, to get back in fighting shape. The only xenos that heal anywhere near fast are ones with almost no health.

Meanwhile when I'm a marine I can heal myself in ~2-10s of anything short of fractures/IB. And I can keep fighting while hurt because defibs exist.

[CABAL]

Lolwut.

If a xeno gets hurt, they have to run away and lie down on weeds for as much as a minute, if not more, to get back in fighting shape. The only xenos that heal anywhere near fast are ones with almost no health.

Meanwhile when I'm a marine I can heal myself in ~2-10s of anything short of fractures/IB. And I can keep fighting while hurt because defibs exist.

You have passive healing on weeds, no need to lay down. Pheromones also add to that.

~2-10 seconds? Applying oinment and bandage is not healing much, those wounds are still applied, that damage is still following you, pain is still on you and you can have 2 pain and first aid autoinjectors without borderline powergaming and taking more from "emergency" sources like wall mounted WYmeds. Damaged organs I guess take those "extreme (on the scail of healing time)" 10 seconds to heal.
Only explanation for that is... Your marine is Wolverine's and Deadpool's child with "healing factor".

No matter the fact that as xeno with higher HP you had to receive much more damage, to lose 1/2 of health pool. Xeno castes don't heal faster, or slower, they heal at the same rate, I guess?

[lurkermain]

Yeah, I hope you have a few spare hours if you want to heal without laying down as mature+..

[Reuben Owen]

hide toggle still being active after pounce, so I don't click myself

or y'know totally negate them taking up a tile so they can move through other xenos/humans like how larva can

[blingx3]

I have a suggestion, as a runner main, I've played many many hours in this cast, one suggestion that I think will give a balance to the cast.
Each time a runner upgrades the runner pounce is buffed in tackle time, young runners will have the current pounce tackle, mature will get a buff by 0.5 seconds, elders will revive another 0.5 second. Ancients will add another 0.5. I think this gives the pounce stun a fair balance.

One of the reservation I have regarding buffing the pounce is I really like it a lot now, because the strong suit of runners is there speed, and the biggest weakness is there sponginess, so when I pounce a marine I want to be able to move off him quickly to not be caught in another marines BC, because I've done this a LOT, where marines just shoot the downed marine because I move off them very quickly. SO, if the buff will add pounce lag (much like a lurkers lag) I disagree very much.

[Madventurer]

I have a suggestion, as a runner main, I've played many many hours in this cast, one suggestion that I think will give a balance to the cast.
Each time a runner upgrades the runner pounce is buffed in tackle time, young runners will have the current pounce tackle, mature will get a buff by 0.5 seconds, elders will revive another 0.5 second. Ancients will add another 0.5. I think this gives the pounce stun a fair balance.

One of the reservation I have regarding buffing the pounce is I really like it a lot now, because the strong suit of runners is there speed, and the biggest weakness is there sponginess, so when I pounce a marine I want to be able to move off him quickly to not be caught in another marines BC, because I've done this a LOT, where marines just shoot the downed marine because I move off them very quickly. SO, if the buff will add pounce lag (much like a lurkers lag) I disagree very much.

While I can see the reasoning with buffing the pounce, the total buff would be too strong.

Ancient Runners are one of the more common T1s to see, and they tend to be fairly competent. Giving them a free, rather long for CM scale stun is just asking for trouble.

0.5 seconds for each maturing stage is too much IMO, especially for elders and ancients, since they can start outright murdering marines in middle of groups at that point.

[blingx3]

While I can see the reasoning with buffing the pounce, the total buff would be too strong.

Ancient Runners are one of the more common T1s to see, and they tend to be fairly competent. Giving them a free, rather long for CM scale stun is just asking for trouble.

0.5 seconds for each maturing stage is too much IMO, especially for elders and ancients, since they can start outright murdering marines in middle of groups at that point.

I understand what you mean, 0.5 seconds is not written in stone, the buff can be vary from 0.1 seconds to lower or more, it's just an idea that the stun increases with age
Ancient runners are not common, I see one couple of rounds, and two rarely.

[4000daniel1]

I I think runners biggest strength against crowds at least is causing marines to FF, they are just way too fast for ungas to comprehend. I've seen runners deal A LOT of damage by just running circles around the marines.

[flying_dice]

You have passive healing on weeds, no need to lay down. Pheromones also add to that.

~2-10 seconds? Applying oinment and bandage is not healing much, those wounds are still applied, that damage is still following you, pain is still on you and you can have 2 pain and first aid autoinjectors without borderline powergaming and taking more from "emergency" sources like wall mounted WYmeds. Damaged organs I guess take those "extreme (on the scail of healing time)" 10 seconds to heal.
Only explanation for that is... Your marine is Wolverine's and Deadpool's child with "healing factor".

No matter the fact that as xeno with higher HP you had to receive much more damage, to lose 1/2 of health pool. Xeno castes don't heal faster, or slower, they heal at the same rate, I guess?

You're ignoring the other part of it. A marine can heal their own minor-moderate wounds and know that they'll keep healing over time even while they do other shit. They also don't have to be afraid of fighting below full health because they can be revived.

Xenos? You have to go back to safe weeds and rest until full, which can take literal minutes at higher age/caste. Yes, that's because the healing rate never changes. An Ancient T2 will without exaggeration need multiple minutes of resting to heal from ~25%-30%. A marine is only going to be out of the fight that long if they're dead.

It was different back when xenos had reliable ways to paincrit marines at range, but these days pretty much the only way a marine is going to be hurt enough to stop fighting is if they're missing limbs, have a bunch of broken bones, and are out of painkillers. The other day I got a punctured lung and kept fighting for a good ten+ minutes because I had two unga painkiller injectors and a corpsman gave me a pair of dex pills. That sort of shit serves as a force multiplier: the ability to safely fight below full health means that marines can keep their momentum even after getting battered. If xenos take a bunch of injuries, either they lose a bunch trying to keep fighting or they have to give ground so they can heal.

Something happened yesterday during a shipboard fight where the queen died and xenos healing bugged out, leaving them unable to heal. They had been winning, but the entire hive got wiped out in a matter of minutes because they couldn't heal. That's what happens if they can't/don't take the requisite minutes to run off and rest, while marines can keep going even if they're innately more fragile.