An idea for the xeno overhaul

[blingx3]

So lately there's been a STREAM of bad queens and bad ones, I've suggest this many times. Queen startup should be put under a time-on-serve limit. Now here's the reasoning behind this, whoever wants to play queen will usually play xeno, and thusly will sometimes play at round start, they'll get to observe other queens who have played queen a good amount and know how to run the show, even if they're not intentionally trying to learn queen, they'll remember what happened previous rounds.

But how can you be a decent queen if you never play queen ? well that's the idea of the whole time-on-server limit, you'll at least know how a queen should run xenos and what and how things go for her, aside from learning the interface and abilities which I think everyone gets a grasp on after one round of queen.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

[kastion]

So lately there's been a STREAM of bad queens and bad ones, I've suggest this many times. Queen startup should be put under a time-on-serve limit. Now here's the reasoning behind this, whoever wants to play queen will usually play xeno, and thusly will sometimes play at round start, they'll get to observe other queens who have played queen a good amount and know how to run the show, even if they're not intentionally trying to learn queen, they'll remember what happened previous rounds.

But how can you be a decent queen if you never play queen ? well that's the idea of the whole time-on-server limit, you'll at least know how a queen should run xenos and what and how things go for her, aside from learning the interface and abilities which I think everyone gets a grasp on after one round of queen.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this.

alot of us agree, we have suggested this and things like whitelisting before but nothing ever happens.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

alot of us agree, we have suggested this and things like whitelisting before but nothing ever happens.

Well, maybe not "whitelisting" exactly, but brownlist (we ask questions, you answers the lot of them to have a chance of getting queen open up) and time locks have definitely been suggested. Honestly, time locks could benefit a lot of marine roles too.

[RuAlastor]

At first sight, timelocks sounds like a good idea in general, but what should you do about low-pop? I've recently seen couple rounds where there were no queen at all, even a bald one. Another thing, you wouldn't be a good queen unless you'd played her at least once, so there would always be bad queens
IMO, it can make things even worse, as people who actually didn't want to play as a queen would try to pick her pursuing this "rank system"

[blingx3]

At first sight, timelocks sounds like a good idea in general, but what should you do about low-pop? I've recently seen couple rounds where there were no queen at all, even a bald one. Another thing, you wouldn't be a good queen unless you'd played her at least once, so there would always be bad queens
IMO, it can make things even worse, as people who actually didn't want to play as a queen would try to pick her pursuing this "rank system"

Yeah, I'm only talking about ROUND START QUEENS, not Queens in general, hell if no one goes queen anyone can go drone and queen to keep the round going, but ROUND START should be handed to someone capable or at least has some hours on the server.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

And the suggestions made in the past have only talked about round-start queens, because it's arguably the most single hit-or-miss thing you can have, while everyone doesn't have much expectation for non-roundstart, so they can chill without getting kicked by the hive.

[CABAL]

Well... You could always start with AI Queen that just stays ovied and then somebody could take control of her later.

[edgardo]

Well... You could always start with AI Queen that just stays ovied and then somebody could take control of her later.

Actually isn't a bad idea, you could use the same ai that is used for the Cargo Bot's on vanilla ss13, to make her go and nest on a designated spot on each map

[misto]

how about making queen a less shitty job by making t3s able to pull their weight and really lead instead of dying young or begging for screeches the moment going gets tough

[kastion]

how about making queen a less shitty job by making t3s able to pull their weight and really lead instead of dying young or begging for screeches the moment going gets tough

If every t3 would just learn that you are trash at young and just hide until mature xenos would do so much better. People never listen no matter how much I try to tell them in game though. Ive even had queens force me into combat as young when im t3 when I tell them its a terrible idea. Sometimes you get forced to fight though like all the big red and prison rushes where you barely turn t3 and people are already dying.

[Ketrai]

If every t3 would just learn that you are trash at young and just hide until mature xenos would do so much better. People never listen no matter how much I try to tell them in game though. Ive even had queens force me into combat as young when im t3 when I tell them its a terrible idea. Sometimes you get forced to fight though like all the big red and prison rushes where you barely turn t3 and people are already dying.

A tier three shouldn't stay in the hive all the time though. Even at a young age you can be at the front as a scare factor. And as boilers you pretty much have no excuse, a queen can just have you accompanied by a defender that's more expendable. Ravager should keep flanks safe when young, as long as there's no big force. Or try to pick off lone marines. Crusher probably should just be making lanes pre-emptively until they mature. Prae can hang around and provide pheromones without really rushing in and fighting just yet. The only exception to this I can see is a carrier. They're miles to squishy, and even easier to pick off than any t2. Just haul eggs from hive to front and give your drones a chance to do shit, they're older, they got tha health and tha speed with frenzy.

[kastion]

A tier three shouldn't stay in the hive all the time though. Even at a young age you can be at the front as a scare factor. And as boilers you pretty much have no excuse, a queen can just have you accompanied by a defender that's more expendable. Ravager should keep flanks safe when young, as long as there's no big force. Or try to pick off lone marines. Crusher probably should just be making lanes pre-emptively until they mature. Prae can hang around and provide pheromones without really rushing in and fighting just yet. The only exception to this I can see is a carrier. They're miles to squishy, and even easier to pick off than any t2. Just haul eggs from hive to front and give your drones a chance to do shit, they're older, they got tha health and tha speed with frenzy.

Ya you can be supportive and stuff as young t3 if you are smart but we aren't talking about smart t3 we are talking about the ones that die lol. The main problem with young t3 is you can still get hit by the rpg even if you are trying to be more passive. Theres always a risk if you are fighting at all. Boiler is probably the exception and should always be fighting but the others have to get up close and are super squishy at young. That's why so many crushers die young is cause they think crushers are super tanky but at young they aren't at all. Ravagers are always squishy but they do like double damage at mature compared to young and they have way better delimb chance at mature so its better to wait for mature. Carrier needs that speed and whatever hitpoints it can get to not get blown up. Praetorian is pretty useful in a passive role like you said but starting at mature they can go head to head with pretty much anything except an RPG.

[misto]

If every t3 would just learn that you are trash at young and just hide until mature xenos would do so much better. People never listen no matter how much I try to tell them in game though. Ive even had queens force me into combat as young when im t3 when I tell them its a terrible idea. Sometimes you get forced to fight though like all the big red and prison rushes where you barely turn t3 and people are already dying.

"hide until mature" is a dumb advice bred from shitty game design philosophy. hiding until mature only means the hive gets that much more invaded and surrounded with no maneuvering/ambush space left and no escape routes left. people join the game to play the game not to hide until fucking mature. i hope xeno aging is removed soon or that youngs, especially young t3s that take a long time to evo into and take a long time to mature, are at least buffed to be in a usable state.

[kastion]

"hide until mature" is a dumb advice bred from shitty game design philosophy. hiding until mature only means the hive gets that much more invaded and surrounded with no maneuvering/ambush space left and no escape routes left. people join the game to play the game not to hide until fucking mature. i hope xeno aging is removed soon or that youngs, especially young t3s that take a long time to evo into and take a long time to mature, are at least buffed to be in a usable state.

how is it dumb advice? unless marines rush t3 are like 250 ticks away from mature when marines start fighting. If your t1 and t2 cant hold them for 250 ticks you are fucked anyways.

[misto]

the t1s and 2s can "hold" marines a while, if by "hold" you mean "get themselves killed by". or possibly "skirmish with briefly and get chased straight to the hive by"

[CABAL]

the t1s and 2s can "hold" marines a while, if by "hold" you mean "get themselves killed by". or possibly "skirmish with briefly and get chased straight to the hive by"

Yeah T1's and T2's are worthless and they can't kill, or delay even a solo marine. I was once solo on Ice engineering and when I spotted two lurkers, drone and spitter so I did
/me Cabal 'NOD' Shephard blinked and they all went into paincrit. One healed becouse he dropped on weeds so I chased him to the hive and I point blank blinked with both eyes and Queen also died.

[Ketrai]

People need to appreciate frenzy drones more. Tbh, everyone ignores how good drones are after the buff. You can get decent pheros in only 600 ticks

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

People need to appreciate frenzy drones more. Tbh, everyone ignores how good drones are after the buff. You can get decent pheros in only 600 ticks

People only think of drone as a build & support caste. Nobody ever expects the frenzy tackle inquisition.

[blingx3]

Okay but what about the idea this thread was actually started for ? yes no ? OwO

[Ketrai]

Okay but what about the idea this thread was actually started for ? yes no ? OwO

I'm not a fan. Instead of making it harder for people to get to learn queen, and still fail unless they have a good chunk of experience. Create units that rely less on the queen. The queen should be able to defend herself, not carry the game as a frontline unit. Whenever xenos get stomped, it's because they couldn't hold multiple fronts on their own. What, marines pushing from three sides. 15/20 sisters who survived round start are around to stop them. 5 for each front if properly divided. The last 5 sitting off in some god forsaken end of the map...

[blingx3]

I'm not a fan. Instead of making it harder for people to get to learn queen, and still fail unless they have a good chunk of experience. Create units that rely less on the queen. The queen should be able to defend herself, not carry the game as a frontline unit. Whenever xenos get stomped, it's because they couldn't hold multiple fronts on their own. What, marines pushing from three sides. 15/20 sisters who survived round start are around to stop them. 5 for each front if properly divided. The last 5 sitting off in some god forsaken end of the map...

I understand what you're saying, but I'll assume you're familiar with xeno play, and queen ordering xenos to form different fronts (from my experience) and have five on each front is kinda hard and impossible, but you'll say tell the admins to shout at them, at this point you have more than one front open, and fighting for the live or death of the hive, so it's kinda hard to take time to report everyone xeno that doesn't listen to you to the admins. Now you didn't really take in consideration that you don't HAVE to play queen to learn queen, you can simply observe as a ghost or xeno, and I'm only talking about GAME-START xeno, not queen in all. round start queen defines how the round goes, when she dies charging baldy into a marine line and dies with 20 xenos remaining that only adds delay and more delay.

Now as for the queen being able to defend for herself, there's no single cast that can fend for themselves, none at all, so why should the queen be any special, xeno is a hive, and hive means teamwork, queen depending on her children, and children depending on the queen, and it goes both ways.

[Renomaki]

if you ask me, I think the best way to "overhaul" xenos is to make melee combat more... Easier to do.

As of current, melee combat is based on clicking directly on a sprite, which is easier said than done, what with how byond handles interactions with moving sprites. Hitting a slow moving target isn't too bad, but if they zoomin real fast? Good luck connecting.

Meanwhile, we have xenos like the ravager and the predalien that have attacks that are based on DIRECTION instead of DIRECT CLICKS. Ever wonder what makes a predalien so deadly? It is because instead of having to directly click on a target, all they have to do is use a special pounce that automatically slashes any target they bump into. It is really quite nifty and useful against moving targets.

If ALL xenos had the ability to simply slash in the direction of a target instead of having to click directly on them, then playing xeno would be a lot less frustrating and stuns would no longer be required to do any decent damage.

AKA make more xenos have the ability to slash based on direction like the ravager or predalien. Doesn't have to be a pounce, just a single tile slash in the direction they click.

[Ketrai]

if you ask me, I think the best way to "overhaul" xenos is to make melee combat more... Easier to do.

As of current, melee combat is based on clicking directly on a sprite, which is easier said than done, what with how byond handles interactions with moving sprites. Hitting a slow moving target isn't too bad, but if they zoomin real fast? Good luck connecting.

Meanwhile, we have xenos like the ravager and the predalien that have attacks that are based on DIRECTION instead of DIRECT CLICKS. Ever wonder what makes a predalien so deadly? It is because instead of having to directly click on a target, all they have to do is use a special pounce that automatically slashes any target they bump into. It is really quite nifty and useful against moving targets.

If ALL xenos had the ability to simply slash in the direction of a target instead of having to click directly on them, then playing xeno would be a lot less frustrating and stuns would no longer be required to do any decent damage.

AKA make more xenos have the ability to slash based on direction like the ravager or predalien. Doesn't have to be a pounce, just a single tile slash in the direction they click.

I'm gonna go ahead and post that on gitlab whilst crediting you, because that's a god tier suggestion.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

I'm gonna go ahead and post that on gitlab whilst crediting you, because that's a god tier suggestion.

There has been a suggestion about that, but it was denied. The suggestion was made by misto, saying that human should have a small extra clickable area around them so that xeno in general and bigger ones specifically can click people more easily.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

Also the things that make Predalien so deadly is that they simply have everything. Good stats, good tackle RNG, good speed, good movement ability and healing that doesn't need weed, which helps it to be more independent. Like if Predalien has runner pounce, it'll still be broken because it'll only need the 2 slashes during pounce duration to cripple someone, unlike runner