A different (if risky) way to develop a swarm?

[Renomaki]

Now, before I begin, I just want to say that what I'm about to post is something that'll no doubt NEVER happen, due to the dev's having a certain vision in mind for the game, let alone the fact that it might be a bit tricky to perfect and even balance (even if it honestly is a rather simple change). It is why I'm not bothering with Gitlab, and am instead simply just discussing the idea here, to see how others would feel about such a [possibly] controversial idea.

NOW, as we all know, the current way xenos grow as a warm is a system based on tiers, with lesser xenos having the option to either perfect themselves or grow into the next tier on the tree, eventually becoming a POSSIBLE force of nature in the right hands... Well, once they mature, anyways.

But as we all know, the current system for xenos is really wonky and promotes some shitty behaviors (mainly in the form of evolve-rushing, where players will rush to reach the tier they want at the detriment of their own hive as a whole, often leading to imbalances in the hive structure or worse).

The system as is mainly consists of Trade-offs, where a player has to decide if he wants to evolve to the next tier on the tree, or upgrade in their current form to become better at what they do (yet still have the ability to advance to the next tier if they wished). However, in my experience, this system is kinda stupid.

Lets say, for instance, you are a spitter, and you want to remain a spitter for the remainder of the round. But then your only boiler dies and you are the only spitter that can evolve INTO a boiler. BUT, at this point, you are already an ELDER, and if you evolve into a boiler, you'll end up wasting a considerable amount of time upgrading just to start all over at YOUNG, during MID to LATE GAME. Trust me, it isn't worth it most of the time, and those that do evolve end up regretting their choices later when you manage to reach the sought-after T3 rank, only to realize that you were stronger as an elder/ancient T2 compared to a young T3. Let alone the fact that most T3s will almost NEVER see elderhood till near the end of any given round, which makes one wonder what is even the point of having the ability to do so when even the best of T3s will never have a game last long enough to REACH it...

I pondered about this, thinking about how oddly designed the current system is, and then began to wonder why, considering the age system, we couldn't just be a Young Hivelord or Ravager right from birth... And then it hit me...

Why not remove the evolve system, make it so larva can evolve into ANY xeno on the tree (while still keeping the Tier limits so we don't end up with 30 ravagers) and retain the aging system we currently have?

I think this would fix quite a few problems that xenos currently have, and make things a bit more fun while providing a bit of Quality of Life improvements for the xenos. For instance, the loss of a T3 wouldn't be so frustrating and difficult to replace when all you have to do is ask the next larva to be born to take its place (as a youngling, of course), and balancing the hive in the early round would be a lot easier to accomplish. In fact, with this system, xenos could afford to get more AGGRESSIVE and take a few more risks with their T2s and T3s, knowing that it won't cripple the hive as severely as it does as of current.

Of course, it would look weird for a larva to suddenly grow into a giant right off the bat, so if I were one of the designers, I'd probably incorporate a more visual growth for young xenos, starting off small and growing bigger and bigger as they mature, until they end up being titans upon reaching ancienthood. A simple cosmetic change, really...

Now, I know what you are going to say, and no, I don't think this'll be too massive a buff for xenos. Again, you have to remember how squishy a lot of xenos are at young, and even at mature they can still die pretty easily if they don't play it smart. BUT it would make it so that xenos can start playing the castes they WANT to play, and start AGING as the xeno they want, instead of having to engage in a stupid rat-race just so they can become a lurker or Crusher, or be forced to play a sentinel for the rest of the round because they already reached ancient and it would be stupid to evolve into a young T2 by then...

What are your thoughts on this? Would it make xeno more fun and fix some current problems xenos deal with? Or would it be a bit too extreme a change?

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

I mean, "how squishy xeno are at young" doesn't really matter when they have 15 minutes to mature, let alone possibly 30 minutes to sit around and twiddle their thumb (the most common time for marines to deploy, even now). For me, it would be too extreme of a change, unless we are to shake up on the stats massively.

Also, think of the poor survivors my dude. If everything already takes a while, survivors will just have to take in a massive amount of shit now that they're fighting young T3s at like 12:05 or something stupid like that.

[CABAL]

Survs are already screwed by early boilers and burrowers. Anything more just pushes something that is off the edge anyway.

Just... GITLAB it!

Hehe...

[RuAlastor]

this would never work as why would you pick burrower/sentinel, when you can grab carrier/spitter from the beginning?

[Szunti]

Maybe I missed something, but how would this eliminate the evolve rushing problem? Most players would join and spam click T3 evolutions until all is gone I guess. Now not even a chance for the Queen to discuss the distribution.

There is another problem with fresh larvas refilling T3 slots: it rewards dying as you can possibly respawn as T3. And punishes staying alive: if you had no luck to be a T3 and evolved to a lesser tier, you will never have a chance again.

Anyway I think CM is poorly designed, every balance problem is solved by giving a few players good abilities or equipment while most have nothing and feel insignificant. The only good T3 is the boiler imo, it buffs other xenos and weak when alone. Not coincidentally the core of the xeno teamplay.

[kastion]

the game shouldnt be balanced around survivors.

[kastion]

Maybe I missed something, but how would this eliminate the evolve rushing problem? Most players would join and spam click T3 evolutions until all is gone I guess. Now not even a chance for the Queen to discuss the distribution.

There is another problem with fresh larvas refilling T3 slots: it rewards dying as you can possibly respawn as T3. And punishes staying alive: if you had no luck to be a T3 and evolved to a lesser tier, you will never have a chance again.

Anyway I think CM is poorly designed, every balance problem is solved by giving a few players good abilities or equipment while most have nothing and feel insignificant. The only good T3 is the boiler imo, it buffs other xenos and weak when alone. Not coincidentally the core of the xeno teamplay.

the praetorian is the best t3, fight me. It has pheromones and can 1v3 marines.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

the praetorian is the best t3, fight me. It has pheromones and can 1v3 marines.

I'll fight you in terms of praising Prae. Praetorian is the best in almost every situation you put it in, and its only real counter atm is SADAR, which counters basically everything so no big. Acid spit just got buffed to old acid spit's range but with falloff damage; strong pheromones at higher age, and neuro spam.

But unlike other T3s, you don't just sit on your ass and have nothing to do while you're not fighting. Set up those sticky fields, and make sure that marines regret fighting vs you.

[kastion]

I'll fight you in terms of praising Prae. Praetorian is the best in almost every situation you put it in, and its only real counter atm is SADAR, which counters basically everything so no big. Acid spit just got buffed to old acid spit's range but with falloff damage; strong pheromones at higher age, and neuro spam.

But unlike other T3s, you don't just sit on your ass and have nothing to do while you're not fighting. Set up those sticky fields, and make sure that marines regret fighting vs you.

They gave it back its acid spit range? that's awesome.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

They gave it back its acid spit range? that's awesome.

Like 2-3 weeks now.

[kastion]

Like 2-3 weeks now.

shows how little I use acid spit cause it blows. hopefully its a little more useful now.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

shows how little I use acid spit cause it blows. hopefully its a little more useful now.

Honestly, the acid spit buff just adds on to what's basically a xeno miniboss. With Prae being the 3rd fastest xeno (after Runner and Lurker), and the 3rd tankiest xeno (after Elder+ Crusher and Empress), and slash damage similar to Warrior; and it having neuro spam+sticky spam+good pheromones+semi decent acid spray (can still meme quite a lot if marines don't learn to immediately dump damage on you)+good acid spit; we're looking at the scariest xeno in the entire line up aside from the queen. Like if I have to rate T3s for their level of necessity, I would rate Prae being 2nd only to Boiler.

Like yesterday when there was a boarding event where xeno (got moved to Almayer) had to fight vs marines+waves of ERTs (3 UPP waves+lancers); as a Young then Mature Prae, I was doing so much for my team, that the Crusher and Rav could only dream of, when we were spawned in a same batch after the ERTs are called.

[Ketrai]

shows how little I use acid spit cause it blows. hopefully its a little more useful now.

It's incredibly useful now. The falloff damage kinda sucks, but you can stop marines from chasing you so easily.

[kastion]

Honestly, the acid spit buff just adds on to what's basically a xeno miniboss. With Prae being the 3rd fastest xeno (after Runner and Lurker), and the 3rd tankiest xeno (after Elder+ Crusher and Empress), and slash damage similar to Warrior; and it having neuro spam+sticky spam+good pheromones+semi decent acid spray (can still meme quite a lot if marines don't learn to immediately dump damage on you)+good acid spit; we're looking at the scariest xeno in the entire line up aside from the queen. Like if I have to rate T3s for their level of necessity, I would rate Prae being 2nd only to Boiler.

Like yesterday when there was a boarding event where xeno (got moved to Almayer) had to fight vs marines+waves of ERTs (3 UPP waves+lancers); as a Young then Mature Prae, I was doing so much for my team, that the Crusher and Rav could only dream of, when we were spawned in a same batch after the ERTs are called.

Prae is also fun to play too. Crusher is way to limited because its whole gimmick is smashing stuff but you need a running start. That makes most of the alamayer no go zones for the crusher except the hallways and the back of cic. It also makes some maps hard to play like caves in lv cause they twist and turn too much. Ravager is probably the most fun to play cause you get to chop peoples arms off which is always exciting. Boiler is kinda boring imo but some people love it. I used to have a lot of fun as boiler before they nerfed acid spray but it was pretty op. Carrier is fun in a trolling way but after a while its like whatever cause its a one trick pony.

[Szunti]

I'll fight you in terms of praising Prae. Praetorian is the best in almost every situation you put it in, and its only real counter atm is SADAR, which counters basically everything so no big. Acid spit just got buffed to old acid spit's range but with falloff damage; strong pheromones at higher age, and neuro spam.

But unlike other T3s, you don't just sit on your ass and have nothing to do while you're not fighting. Set up those sticky fields, and make sure that marines regret fighting vs you.

Sounds like a really fun class for a singleplayer action game. Not sure about about a multiplayer roleplaying game, where you should constantly interact with sisters. Or maybe xenos are designed to have less teamwork and more action, but why have T1s, host watching duties, etc. then? There could be less xenos but all able to kill a lot of marines in fun ways.

Back to the suggestion, there is a possible deadlock if new larvas are the ones evolving. When you spawn as a larva and only T1 is available, it is tempting to wait for others to be T1s instead.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

Sounds like a really fun class for a singleplayer action game. Not sure about a multiplayer roleplaying game, where you should constantly interact with sisters. Or maybe xenos are designed to have less teamwork and more action, but why have T1s, host watching duties, etc. then? There could be less xenos but all able to kill a lot of marines in fun ways.

Back to the suggestion, there is a possible deadlock if new larvas are the ones evolving. When you spawn as a larva and only T1 is available, it is tempting to wait for others to be T1s instead.

Marines roleplay, not us. And all the qualities I've described fit both "singleplayer" and "multiplayer" styles. Its stats,neuro+acid spit, acid spray are more for Prae being able to hold its own vs marines, and its strong pheromones+sticky resin spit is for team play. You can do both, and you can switch on a dime to adapt to whatever you need. That's why I was gushing about it. Prae is able to go from this one xeno killing machine with a combination of neuro spam+decent slash damage+great speed to a team player with sticky resin spit, strong pheromones, and tankiness that can help eat bullets for other xeno.

Also, "interacting with your sisters" is hard. Because xeno doesn't have a system like marines where we can identify each other aside from the numbers, you can't really go into every round/situation/interaction knowing that it's gonna be worth your effort. That's why while team play xeno are important, xeno that are more focused into going solo is also important as well.

[Pulse Demon]

Holy derailing Batman

[Mister Jeether]

Some points in that suggestion could really work, and i personally think It could fix some of the current problems with xeno evolutivon, but i REALLY dont want to die at 12:04 to ravagers and crushers as survivor.

They are already hardcore enough to fight Aliens that can literally burrow through their defenses, while the rest of the ravs, boilers, crushers and lurkers rape their cades, leave alone mature T3s at 12:15.

[Build_R_]

While it'd make sure there's no ancient runners becoming lurkers. I feel like this idea would really take away from enjoyment as a xeno. One of the nicer aspects of being a xeno is sometimes being able to go through 3 different playstyles for different evolution stages while you play. If you instantly got whichever T3 caste you wanted then this would 'lock' you to that playstyle with no chance of switching it up.
Also, anybody who didn't get a T3 xeno at roundstart is 'locked out' of getting a T3, this discourages any ghosts at mid-round from joining xenos as T1 (who wants to stay a shitty sentinel forever guarding hosts?). Not to mention that if the T3 slots are taken at roundstart then it's even more unlikely they'll ever be freed up since the T3s will be mature nearing elder when marines land.

[kooarbiter]

While it'd make sure there's no ancient runners becoming lurkers. I feel like this idea would really take away from enjoyment as a xeno. One of the nicer aspects of being a xeno is sometimes being able to go through 3 different playstyles for different evolution stages while you play. If you instantly got whichever T3 caste you wanted then this would 'lock' you to that playstyle with no chance of switching it up.
Also, anybody who didn't get a T3 xeno at roundstart is 'locked out' of getting a T3, this discourages any ghosts at mid-round from joining xenos as T1 (who wants to stay a shitty sentinel forever guarding hosts?). Not to mention that if the T3 slots are taken at roundstart then it's even more unlikely they'll ever be freed up since the T3s will be mature nearing elder when marines land.

I think the problem here isn't "why would I want to play shitty T1 sentinel and guard hosts" rather, "why is such a core line up of xeno playstyles so boring/unfun/shit?


and this is coming from a former sentinel main

[Build_R_]

I think the problem here isn't "why would I want to play shitty T1 sentinel and guard hosts" rather, "why is such a core line up of xeno playstyles so boring/unfun/shit?


and this is coming from a former sentinel main

True, but one of the things that makes that xeno bearable is the knowledge that I can evolve out of it soon.