Xeno Mutator discussion

[kastion]

Also ideas for mutators - Attack speed mutator, mutator that removes the stupid delay you get after pouncing someone, mutator for defenders to get a charging headbutt kinda like a rav, mutator for crusher to beable to switch one lane without losing momentum so he can smash people trying to juke

[FGRSentinel]

Honestly so far it just seems there's 2 or 3 mutators that are stupid OP in comparison to the rest due to the current meta:

Speed
Health
Pull speed

Anyone who isn't a warrior or boiler that runs this becomes considerably stronger, compared to using anything else like armor or damage.

Maybe instead of a damage buff mutator it can be a tackle buff that is actually useable?

Also it kinda sucks a few mutators were removed because they were so badly balanced >:L

It's important to note that some castes are able to survive OBs if they're under the effect of hive+personal health mutators and warding pheromones. I know I've survived an OB as an Elder Drone before the nerf with health+armor+pheromone mutators and a hive health mutator. Anything that allows that is, honestly, horribly broken.

[JJG]

im also thinking about taking maturation from now on to stop the meta rush bullshit.

You kept saying that Mutators are fine and balanced and that Marines are supposed to adapt. We adapted...you don't like it.
You, Sir, are being a hypocrite at this point.

[Boersgard]

It's important to note that some castes are able to survive OBs if they're under the effect of hive+personal health mutators and warding pheromones. I know I've survived an OB as an Elder Drone before the nerf with health+armor+pheromone mutators and a hive health mutator. Anything that allows that is, honestly, horribly broken.

I'm tempted to roll beno warrior again and just ignore CAS/OB instead of running away. I'm curious if it's even dangerous at all right now.

[FGRSentinel]

As far as I remember, it requires the mutator mix I mentioned and a queen to emit warding. in my case, I was put into crit so it was a "barely survive" incident of either a Widowmaker CAS strike or an OB, but I'm not sure which.

[kastion]

You kept saying that Mutators are fine and balanced and that Marines are supposed to adapt. We adapted...you don't like it.
You, Sir, are being a hypocrite at this point.

Congrats on breaking rules to find a way to win. Thats really adapting there. And me saying ill take maturation to counter your stupid meta rushes is me adapting with the tools I have. Thats the opposite of a hypocrite stupid.

[KittyHawkpilot019]

Remove wield delay for everything and it'll be balanced

[GenericUsername]

and bring back QF rifle

[KingKire]

balance xeno upgrades:

mutators get bonuses and negatives, The higher you drop in points costs, the more crazy and wild the mutation perk becomes. 6 points gets you a small offbranch of your xeno, 12 points your getting weird, 18 points, your getting funky mutations.
[ 6 points = this looks like what a runner is supposed to look like, 18 points = wtf, that aint a runner, thats almost something entirely diffrent]



you earn 3 points per age rank. (older xeno are funkier xeno)

You can have 1 perk per evolution. (runner = 1 perk, lurker = 2 different perks, ravager = 3 different perks) lower tier xeno generally act mostly standard cookie cutters, old ass xeno can vary greatly)

You can take quirks to go with perks which give you points.

negative quirks give you 3/6/9 points depending on how bad of a handicap you take. (Move slower = 6 points, minor hp loss = 3 points, No armor = 9 points)


You can go back to a standard xeno by de-mutating your quirks/perks. The bigger the mutation, the longer it takes for it to be erased off. (6 points = 10 minutes before its removed and the points/slots are returned for use, 18 points = 30 minutes to devolve the perk/quirk slot off)

[Build_R_]

snip

The idea's a bit complicated, not to mention that if it involves spriting whatsoever then it's very unlikely to happen.

[xXen0zS1ay3rXx]

ask youself this, is the SADAR still in the game? If yes than mutators as they are now are 100% justified- hell they could do with abuff

[FGRSentinel]

Congrats on breaking rules to find a way to win. Thats really adapting there. And me saying ill take maturation to counter your stupid meta rushes is me adapting with the tools I have. Thats the opposite of a hypocrite stupid.

The game is meant to be balanced around the idea that Marines need to drop at about 12:25-12:30 and maintain an offensive for as long as possible to be competitive with xenos' scaling stats. The longer the Marines delay, the stronger the xenos will be and the harder it'll be for the Marines to establish an FOB, let alone have any successful push. Mutators are dropped in as stat boosters with zero downsides that do nothing for balance but shift the competitive drop time closer to "earliest drop time" and require more aggressive "metarush" like tactics for the Marines to have much of a chance. The fact that much of your suggestions for mutators would make them even more unbalanced makes what JJG said more accurate: you're saying Marines need to adapt to a slightly broken mechanic while making requests for it to be even more broken by having mutators to let you give yourself abilities from other castes, then complain when Marines are becoming more aggressive and some of them are pushing closer to the toeing the line stuff that a few benos are known for (for instance, the time a Hivelord filled all of Engineering with thick resin walls before the first drop and got away with it).

If the metarushing is really getting as bad as you claim it is, either mutators need to be adjusted so metarushes aren't necessary, Marines need something to make metarushes less of a competitive necessity, or the rules need to be brought in line with the new power balance created by mutators staying the same. That's my outlook on it.

[CABAL]

ask youself this, is the SADAR still in the game? If yes than mutators as they are now are 100% justified- hell they could do with abuff

One SADAR... Only one SADAR... Bad luck, bad RNG, bad OB, bad Mortar, bad FF and it's gone... This justifies straight stat and number boost for all xenos.

No scam here. Legit.

How xenos were able to win when tank was in game? Just asking, how did they menaged to do it? It was a big, "tanky" and powerfull SADAR/Flamethrower/Stunner on wheels...
What was there, what kind of buff/feature that was removed alongside tank that made xenos suck so bad that they needed crutch against every single type of marine's weaponry?

[Dolth]

Imo I see mutators like a HP-Armor-speed buff for every castes.

Our guns just don't hit hard enough since you need 3 guys to focus AND manage to constantly hit the same target to make a kill, if you're in a 3x wide hallway a coupe of xeno will always have enough HP to hit and run heavily without being in less than half HP.

I mean really. Mature warriors tanking more than 10ish bullets to die. If there's 3 warriors in that said hallway the first line can't do shit but remove 20% of their life then get slashed/punched to crit before warriors leave with almost mid life.

Guns need to hit stronger to at least kill a xeno if they run straight toward someone in 3 bursts at most. Not 12ish bullets that will take 5 people shooting on burst and barly grasing.

[CABAL]

Dmg buff to weapons will be meet with disagreedment everytime. Slowdown mechanics is what should be added instead. If said 3 warriors rush 3 marines, then every one of them should receive 20% dmg and being slow down to a crawl.

How "funky" xenos are, their "muscles" receive a lot of stress each time xeno was hit by any bullet. It's reasonable to slow down if you are a living being and under accurate fire. Despite how thic their exoskeleton is, it's still attached to them directly, all the force is passed directly to their internals.

[TheMaskedMan2]

100% Stat Boosts are already handled entirely fine by the maturation system.

I sincerely believe mutations should be left to sidegrades/expensive-unique upgrades.

Save 12 points for auto slashing when you pounce, or sacrifice Spitters neuro for heavy prae tier acid damage.

Obviously not those exactly but the general idea. I genuinelly think the straight “Stat boosts” are more than just boring, they are poorly balanced when combined with a system that handles it perfectly well already.

[CABAL]

REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEeeee! nOw BeNoS aRe BaLaNcEd! dOn'T cHaNgE aNyThInG, bEcAuSe SADAR eXiSt! SiDeGrAdEs ArE bAd! WaLk A mIlE iN xEnO's ShOeS!
mArInEs ArE mEaNt To LoSe! ThEy ArE tHe MaIn PrOtAgOnIsTs! I lIkE mY wInS hArD eArNeD! XeNo TaKeS sKiLl!

[JJG]

[...]
If the metarushing is really getting as bad as you claim it is, either mutators need to be adjusted so metarushes aren't necessary, Marines need something to make metarushes less of a competitive necessity, or the rules need to be brought in line with the new power balance created by mutators staying the same. That's my outlook on it.

Sentinel understood!
Kastion, that rush you were so angry about and apparently still are, we almost lost that. We were one screech and three kills away from completely crumbling.
Consider that for a moment. The earliest deploy possible with a perfect marine rush (and it really was quite perfect, brought a tear to my eye to see the baldies doing well), and despite all that we still almost lost regardless.
Before mutators that round would have been an easy marine stomp with all aliens crushed in a matter of minutes.

[kastion]

Sentinel understood!
Kastion, that rush you were so angry about and apparently still are, we almost lost that. We were one screech and three kills away from completely crumbling.
Consider that for a moment. The earliest deploy possible with a perfect marine rush (and it really was quite perfect, brought a tear to my eye to see the baldies doing well), and despite all that we still almost lost regardless.
Before mutators that round would have been an easy marine stomp with all aliens crushed in a matter of minutes.

I was the queen that round I know what happened, I sit and watched the meta rush myself through my vision of other xenos. I was commanding the xenos the entire time. I was the one that almost broke you all because im a pretty good combat queen. Put any newbie queen in there and its over in like 2 minutes. That was the worst meta rush ive ever seen. The only time marines stopped moving towards us was to blow open the eta locks. It was beyond stupid. Even with mutators we couldnt win, do yall not see how stupid meta rushes are for aliens? 20 minutes rounds arent fun for anyone. When you spend more time in prep than you do fighting how is that any fun? I would rather lose a drawn out battle than curb stomp in 20 minutes then be bored for another 20 finding the last xeno and then another 20 sitting around waiting for briefing and deployment.

The problem is that the devs made everything faster so rounds dont take 4 hours anymore. They didnt balance the game to have 2 hour rounds though so everything is fucked up now. We had more fun and more balanced games a year ago than we do now, how does that make any sense? Every major change goes xenos get something new totally break the game, marines get something new to counter now they are unstopable, rinse and repeat over and over. We havent had any balance in 6 months. I dont have fun stomping either, but I have even less fun getting metarushed and stomped every fucking round because marines are sore losers.

Yall keep saying you need more damage and stuff, they have already said the weapon overhaul for marines is coming. Thats your more damage and rebalancing. Its probably a ways out though so yall gotta be patient.

[chocolate_bickie]

It's worth noting marines have macros, xenos do not.
Macros are versatile and powerful but are rarely used to their fullest except by a few robust players. If more marines used macros they would have less issues.

[kastion]

like seriously we need to quit this xeno vs marine meta balancing bullshit we are doing. the devs make all the decisions on thsi shit and they almost never listen to us ever. They are the ones breaking shit not me, not you.

[kastion]

It's worth noting marines have macros, xenos do not.
Macros are versatile and powerful but are rarely used to their fullest except by a few robust players. If more marines used macros they would have less issues.

marines have to have macros, imagine trying to fight with a shotgun and having to click the little button (good luck being that accurate in a battle) every time you needed to reload then reaiming your mouse to fire again. It would be a nightmare. Thats just one little example of macros for marines. Xenos should definently have QOL of life macros, but it isnt completely essential like for marines.

[CABAL]

I was the queen that round I know what happened, I sit and watched the meta rush myself through my vision of other xenos. I was commanding the xenos the entire time. I was the one that almost broke you all because im a pretty good combat queen. Put any newbie queen in there and its over in like 2 minutes. That was the worst meta rush ive ever seen. The only time marines stopped moving towards us was to blow open the eta locks. It was beyond stupid. Even with mutators we couldnt win, do yall not see how stupid meta rushes are for aliens? 20 minutes rounds arent fun for anyone. When you spend more time in prep than you do fighting how is that any fun? I would rather lose a drawn out battle than curb stomp in 20 minutes then be bored for another 20 finding the last xeno and then another 20 sitting around waiting for briefing and deployment.

The problem is that the devs made everything faster so rounds dont take 4 hours anymore. They didnt balance the game to have 2 hour rounds though so everything is fucked up now. We had more fun and more balanced games a year ago than we do now, how does that make any sense? Every major change goes xenos get something new totally break the game, marines get something new to counter now they are unstopable, rinse and repeat over and over. We havent had any balance in 6 months. I dont have fun stomping either, but I have even less fun getting metarushed and stomped every fucking round because marines are sore losers.

Yall keep saying you need more damage and stuff, they have already said the weapon overhaul for marines is coming. Thats your more damage and rebalancing. Its probably a ways out though so yall gotta be patient.

Do there exist CM player that have a forum account and plays for few months who belive that guns will get more Dmg?

Research overhaul was announced quite a while ago... I guess we will have to wait alteast the same amount of time to get this aswell.

The ultimate solution to "Metarushing" problem: Removal of "Maturing" and "Fast healing everywhere from any wound" mechanics.
If xenos wouldn't get stronger in time and if they couldn't heal that easly, then nobody would even think about rushing xenos (What's the point when xeno's hive is the strongest when you deploy). Is there a point in establishing small FoB in the way to xeno's hive? None. Lose your momentum and you are losing all troops. Don't make the FoB and lose wounded. Simple math, sacriface 20 marines to save 80, or lose all 100.

Some sort of "currency/points/fuel" for xenos would be interesting and probably fun. I imagine that xenos could "feed" on organic material, their weeds "decay" plants, animals and human bodies so that they can grow/heal wounds/etc. Basically an equivalent of Req points mixed with vendors and material gained from killed enemies.
War of attrition where flanks do matter, where every established outpost in the colony do matter and isn't pointless, where every shoot/slash counts towards victory.

[kastion]

Do there exist CM player that have a forum account and plays for few months who belive that guns will get more Dmg?

Research overhaul was announced quite a while ago... I guess we will have to wait alteast the same amount of time to get this aswell.

The ultimate solution to "Metarushing" problem: Removal of "Maturing" and "Fast healing everywhere from any wound" mechanics.
If xenos wouldn't get stronger in time and if they couldn't heal that easly, then nobody would even think about rushing xenos (What's the point when xeno's hive is the strongest when you deploy). Is there a point in establishing small FoB in the way to xeno's hive? None. Lose your momentum and you are losing all troops. Don't make the FoB and lose wounded. Simple math, sacriface 20 marines to save 80, or lose all 100.

Some sort of "currency/points/fuel" for xenos would be interesting and probably fun. I imagine that xenos could "feed" on organic material, their weeds "decay" plants, animals and human bodies so that they can grow/heal wounds/etc. Basically an equivalent of Req points mixed with vendors and material gained from killed enemies.
War of attrition where flanks do matter, where every established outpost in the colony do matter and isn't pointless, where every shoot/slash counts towards victory.

The problem with no maturation is what level do you balance xenos at? Before mutations t1 xenos werent even very good at ancient. t3 are trash at young. Do you make everyone mature and t1 are now useless? Do you do it for each tier differently? It makes things alot different. Marines land and there are 8 t3 that are as strong as they ever gonna get, what do you think xenos do instead of delay to get older? They gonna rush you instead and good luck fighting all those t3 at once. No fast healing equals xenos dying. You would have to give them something else or they automatically lose without fast healing.

In a system where you get to absorb material or whatever does it only work on kills? That makes captures less valuable. Does it work after you capture them? It delays the time before you get your "req points". Does the whole hive get the points or the person who killed them? That makes newbies get nothing if its personal. Does each xeno get the points if its shared or does the queen buy stuff for one person like req does? Queen favoritism in the later.

The problem is you are talking about redesigning the entire xeno gameplay when you yourself said you dont even have faith that they will boost your guns anytime in the next few months.

[kastion]

I know the tank was unfun for both sides, but can anyone say the game was less balanced at the time of the tank than it has been since then? (excluding defender/warrior introduction cause that was fucked) Im telling you they broke the flow of the game. Mutlilarva, faster deploy time, faster maturation, since those 3 things came in the game has been broken. They also added project nightmare that makes it even faster to fight on lv and that map has been broken since then. The tank slowed the game down so there wasnt rushing so xenos could get stronger, but it also gave marines a way to fuck up strong xenos so if they outplayed the xenos they could win. Then they removed the tank and made the mini tank (rpg) which is perfect for running across the map and blowing people up at 1220 instead of taking time to move around. Then they added all the other crap to speed up the game. They never rebalanced the early game at all and not only left all the late game power of the xenos that make it hopeless for marines, but also made it arrive faster with faster upgrade speed in the first 30 minutes.

*bonus fuckup - they ruined the almayer fight too by making everyone rush around in 20 minutes or get a draw instead of letting us have drawn out battles where both sides can use tactics to win and removing SD.