Xeno Mutator discussion

[JJG]

Yesterday I saw an elder warrior get hit by blue flame twice and he was still at 2/5 health...

[CABAL]

Yesterday I saw an elder warrior get hit by blue flame twice and he was still at 2/5 health...

Stay where you are! - Annonymous

Xenomains want to know your location!

[kastion]

One thing I really love doing as queen is to focus 1 xeno, especially a lurker, thats doing work and just heal them over and over and over so they seem like the terminator and never stop coming. I bet it makes marines feel like aliens are so op its not even funny too.

[xXen0zS1ay3rXx]

Loving all the gripes about beanos not being made of paper(if they have HP upgrades). Whenever I play marine(gimme spec) it is the norm to survive facefulls of buckshot, and slugs. Slashes, stamps, and nades. On top of all that, if you do die, you can be defibbed.

[FGRSentinel]

I just had a round where I was an Elder Queen and through some nonsense was moving faster than (Elder/Ancient) Runners after just picking the hive speed mutator and health with Frenzy pheromones active. There was a Prae teleporting around Almayer during the final battle too, that's how fast they were.

Make of that what you will, but I think the former is definitely being fixed.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

New Mutations:

_ Faster egg production for Queen
_ More storage capacity for Carrier
_ Longer pounce for pouncing castes
_ Tackle mutator for everyone
_ "Resilient larva". It boosts larva gestation speed and gives you a small chance of spawning an extra larva from (almost) all types of hosts.

Multiburst now gets lowered from 7 max to 4 max. 4 larva multiburst will still gib the corpse.

[xXen0zS1ay3rXx]

New Mutations:

_ Faster egg production for Queen
_ More storage capacity for Carrier
_ Longer pounce for pouncing castes
_ Tackle mutator for everyone
_ "Resilient larva". It boosts larva gestation speed and gives you a small chance of spawning an extra larva from (almost) all types of hosts.

Multiburst now gets lowered from 7 max to 4 max. 4 larva multiburst will still gib the corpse.

Tackle, pounce, and the larva one seems interesting, others not so much. Queen already craps out more eggs than needed and more carrier capacity is meh. You still have to be a burrower before carrier.

Also RIP decent multi-bursts

[kastion]

New Mutations:

_ Faster egg production for Queen
_ More storage capacity for Carrier
_ Longer pounce for pouncing castes
_ Tackle mutator for everyone
_ "Resilient larva". It boosts larva gestation speed and gives you a small chance of spawning an extra larva from (almost) all types of hosts.

Multiburst now gets lowered from 7 max to 4 max. 4 larva multiburst will still gib the corpse.

I wont ever use the egg production, or longer pounce, or resilient larva. Probably wont ever use storage capacity unless its pretty significant increase. Tackle mutator is sweet.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

Ok, so after an Ice round with the new mutations.

_ Pounce is a huge noob bait, you're way better off with tackle or mutations like health/armor
_ Resilient Larva is pretty good since it lets monkeys burst faster and you can gamble RNG for 2 larvae per monkeys. Just having stuff burst faster is great.
_ Faster Egg production is a bit unknown since the queen didn't choose it. But if the hive has multiple carriers and more combat huggers, I can see it being good
_ More Storage Capacity could be worth, but I don't see it being strong enough to consider over Speed, Health, Armor, Phero
_ Tackle Mutation is hilarious. With personal+hive mutation, runner tackle gets boosted to over 50% (can also stack this up higher with Frenzy), which is about the same as pre tackle nerf chance for the runner. A drone can probably get like 100% with it and Frenzy, which is just ridiculous. But it's still an opportunity cost because runner won't be able to fit both armor and health in their mutation build since Drag Speed/Tackle/Slash is gonna go first. Same with Lurker, but its normal build now is speed/drag speed/slash/tackle, so unless you want to sacrifice slash or drag speed, you're not getting health/armor

[kastion]

_ Tackle Mutation is hilarious. With personal+hive mutation, runner tackle gets boosted to over 50% (can also stack this up higher with Frenzy), which is about the same as pre tackle nerf chance for the runner. A drone can probably get like 100% with it and Frenzy, which is just ridiculous. But it's still an opportunity cost because runner won't be able to fit both armor and health in their mutation build since Drag Speed/Tackle/Slash is gonna go first. Same with Lurker, but its normal build now is speed/drag speed/slash/tackle, so unless you want to sacrifice slash or drag speed, you're not getting health/armor

IDK, I dont take speed like everyone else because I am so used to the old speed that I dont need more to do what I want. Except on things like defender, queen, stuff like that, that was too slow in the first place and needs more speed. Also I dont know why drones even have tackle mutator they are already the best tacklers in the game. Like I said devs need to start limiting which castes get which mutators to keep the marines from salting hard as fuck. They are gonna cry "remove tackle mutator" because its OP on 1 caste.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

IDK, I dont take speed like everyone else because I am so used to the old speed that I dont need more to do what I want. Except on things like defender, queen, stuff like that, that was too slow in the first place and needs more speed.

Well hey, there's that customization that the devs are aiming for.

[Steelpoint]

Main issue I have is that its not usually fun to shoot and fight Xenos for me. Not to say its not enjoyable but its not really fun, more an obligation as Xenos just shrug off attacks and never really feel like being shot is affecting them in any way.

I guess that's why I play Medic or Spec the most, healing people is fun for me, and at least the spec weapons feel a bit more weighty and viable.

[KingKire]

I wanna say, no matter what, we have almost 5000 views and almost 400 separate comments on this one topic. Whatever it is, this topic is just the bee knees for people to watch and talk about. That is all

[Garrison]

I wanna say, no matter what, we have almost 5000 views and almost 400 separate comments on this one topic. Whatever it is, this topic is just the bee knees for people to watch and talk about. That is all

He is not wrong

[Dolth]

One thing I really love doing as queen is to focus 1 xeno, especially a lurker, thats doing work and just heal them over and over and over so they seem like the terminator and never stop coming. I bet it makes marines feel like aliens are so op its not even funny too.

Usually you guess when a xeno is under the queen influence when they tank more shots than the usual or return fast. Unless the xeno is fighting at a frontline lol.

Then yeah it's a pain to the nerves lol

[kastion]

ok devs yall can stealth add all the mutators back cause marine mains aint gonna play xeno anymore tha tthey got gun buff.

[xXen0zS1ay3rXx]

ok devs yall can stealth add all the mutators back cause marine mains aint gonna play xeno anymore tha tthey got gun buff.

That was their plan all along, add a few minor buffs to beans with the mutators. Have the beans have fun playing in the salt mines then BAM! Huge sweeping uncheck marine buffs out of left field.

You were played like a damn fiddle.

[Saytkl77]

I think the best potential for enabling real strategic choice per round for the xenos is the hive-wide ones, so I thought I would make some to speculate on what could be done.

First there is a goal of what type of strategy the hive-wide mutator should encourage.
Second there is a question of what the mutator would do to make that strategy be what you want to do if you have that mutator.
Thirdly there needs to be a weakness, that can be tweaked if the strategy is a bit too strong, preferably a weakness that also encourages using the strategy.

I have no idea how balanced any of these would be, its more about coming up with cool ideas, that hopefully wouldn't involve too much development work to add.

"Roaming Hive"
1) This mutator should encourage the xenos to roam around the map, strike the marines and then hide for a bit and repeat. The round is about hunting down the xenos in brief bursts of activity rather than a long siege of a hive. Where you lose marines quickly, but the xenos cannot replenish their numbers.
2) The Queen gets an ability that gives her massively increased pheromones for a short period of time that only come from her not leaders, after 30 seconds it wears off and she is much slower and has lower health for 60 seconds.
3) Marines cannot burst into larva. This makes the strategy a fairly quick round strategy, and also synergies with the concept of there not being a particular hive that needs to be protected with hosts in it.

"Captured Marines Breakout"
1) This mutator should encourage nesting tonnes of marines in unsecured nests causing much larger number of moments where multiple captured marines, nested right next to each other break out or potentially even kill the queen.
2) Marines give twice as many larva as normal, marines burst dramatically quicker for each nested alive marine in a nest directly next to them (unsecure nests).
3) Marines base burst time is five times slower than normal, nests are weaker and can be escaped in half the normal amount of time.

"Multiple Hives"
1) This mutator should encourage the xenos to split their forces and defend 2 or more hives at the same times at different locations on the map.
2) Xenos can build a building that increases evolution/upgrade rate when you have at least 2, it cannot be placed within 75 tiles of another of this type of building, it can be seen on the marines tactical map due to its high heat output.
3) Destroying one of the buildings instantly causes the xenos to lose all of their unspent upgrade/evolution points.

"Wine Operation"
1) This mutator turns the xenos into endless swarms of xenos who throw themselves at marines over and over and let marines feel good killing tonnes of xenos.
2) The queen passively generates 10 larva per minute (Up to a maximum of 20 at any point in time). Xenos do not need evolution points to evolve. Xenos spawn with a random upgrade level weighted towards the younger ones and do not gain upgrade points over time.
3) Xenos have one third of their normal max health. The maximum numbers of T2/T3 at the same time is slightly reduced.

Do you guys have any cool ideas for strategies that could shake up a round, and how a mutator could make it possible?

[RuAlastor]

I think the best potential for enabling real strategic choice per round for the xenos is the hive-wide ones, so I thought I would make some to speculate on what could be done.

First there is a goal of what type of strategy the hive-wide mutator should encourage.
Second there is a question of what the mutator would do to make that strategy be what you want to do if you have that mutator.
Thirdly there needs to be a weakness, that can be tweaked if the strategy is a bit too strong, preferably a weakness that also encourages using the strategy.

I have no idea how balanced any of these would be, its more about coming up with cool ideas, that hopefully wouldn't involve too much development work to add.

"Roaming Hive"
1) This mutator should encourage the xenos to roam around the map, strike the marines and then hide for a bit and repeat. The round is about hunting down the xenos in brief bursts of activity rather than a long siege of a hive. Where you lose marines quickly, but the xenos cannot replenish their numbers.
2) The Queen gets an ability that gives her massively increased pheromones for a short period of time that only come from her not leaders, after 30 seconds it wears off and she is much slower and has lower health for 60 seconds.
3) Marines cannot burst into larva. This makes the strategy a fairly quick round strategy, and also synergies with the concept of there not being a particular hive that needs to be protected with hosts in it.

"Captured Marines Breakout"
1) This mutator should encourage nesting tonnes of marines in unsecured nests causing much larger number of moments where multiple captured marines, nested right next to each other break out or potentially even kill the queen.
2) Marines give twice as many larva as normal, marines burst dramatically quicker for each nested alive marine in a nest directly next to them (unsecure nests).
3) Marines base burst time is five times slower than normal, nests are weaker and can be escaped in half the normal amount of time.

"Multiple Hives"
1) This mutator should encourage the xenos to split their forces and defend 2 or more hives at the same times at different locations on the map.
2) Xenos can build a building that increases evolution/upgrade rate when you have at least 2, it cannot be placed within 75 tiles of another of this type of building, it can be seen on the marines tactical map due to its high heat output.
3) Destroying one of the buildings instantly causes the xenos to lose all of their unspent upgrade/evolution points.

"Wine Operation"
1) This mutator turns the xenos into endless swarms of xenos who throw themselves at marines over and over and let marines feel good killing tonnes of xenos.
2) The queen passively generates 10 larva per minute (Up to a maximum of 20 at any point in time). Xenos do not need evolution points to evolve. Xenos spawn with a random upgrade level weighted towards the younger ones and do not gain upgrade points over time.
3) Xenos have one third of their normal max health. The maximum numbers of T2/T3 at the same time is slightly reduced.

Do you guys have any cool ideas for strategies that could shake up a round, and how a mutator could make it possible?

1. Roaming hive rn is unplayable due to how bad young benos are. Sounds good, doesn't work ©
2. Poor sentinels...
3. "Multiple hives" seems good, but relies on coordination too much. If structures are seen on the map = rush, if not just hide it in the corner of Ice. This can be really cheesy
4. Sounds fun for marines. A little bit OP. Also it's basically WO and it's not fun to play as a beno-meat.

[Saytkl77]

1. Roaming hive rn is unplayable due to how bad young benos are. Sounds good, doesn't work ©
2. Poor sentinels...
3. "Multiple hives" seems good, but relies on coordination too much. If structures are seen on the map = rush, if not just hide it in the corner of Ice. This can be really cheesy
4. Sounds fun for marines. A little bit OP. Also it's basically WO and it's not fun to play as a beno-meat.

I feel like anything thats a problem because its unbalanced.. can just be balanced.

If a roaming hive is unplayable due to young xenos being too weak, then you can change it so the mutator also instantly upgrades xenos to mature/elder, whatever is balanced.

If multiple hives is to weak because marines will just rush one, you can put in place a mechanic to punish that, for instance the queen can choose to make one of those structures emit super pheromones, at the cost of the other structures actually weaking nearby xenos, then if the marines rush one instead of splitting and attacking both they will lose.

If the WO one is too op (for xenos or marines) you can reduce xeno max health to 1/4 of normal or increase it to 1/2.

[solidfury7]

I wouldn't mind having major mutations or minor mutations split to separate things.

Major should be essential shit like health, speed, ect.

Minor should be stuff like egg production, slightly fluffier but still can change things up without sacrificing major stuff.

[kastion]

What I see happening is they will buff AP rounds to counter new armor buffs. That means everyone who doesn't take armor is even weaker than they used to be. I see them nerfing base speed on runners when people complain that the speed boost is too good, because how can you make a 5% boost something like 2% and it even matters at that point? Thus when people don't take the speed boost they will be even slower. Things like this will constantly happen over the next few months until we are at a point where base xenos are weaker than ever and mutations have us where we are now. The only problem is you don't get enough mutations to boost every stat so eventually we just end up weaker overall.

woops

[KingKire]

Major/Minor buff systems are pretty easy to implement, and usually pretty easy to balance.

[Maxim Inc]

The other day I decided I wanted to save my mutator points for when I hit T3 so I can see what I want after the queen gets hive mutators, but when I hit T3 I noticed everytime I evo'd I lost the mutator points I wanted to save. This seems like a flaw that needs to be fixed.

[Boersgard]

The other day I decided I wanted to save my mutator points for when I hit T3 so I can see what I want after the queen gets hive mutators, but when I hit T3 I noticed everytime I evo'd I lost the mutator points I wanted to save. This seems like a flaw that needs to be fixed.

Evolution points are tied to age... that's why you 'lose' them when you evolve to a different caste.