Xeno Mutator discussion

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

you can tell when people don't play xeno when they act like nothing but PB buckshot can kill anything. AP shreds everything doesn't matter what you are. Yesterday I was a mature crusher and I ran at a pyro and he blue flamed me, I instantly turned around and ran and by the time I got 5 tiles away I was at 5% hp from full. I got dropped as an elder defender in about 3 seconds to an SMG with AP. I have been an elder praetorian and been killed in 1 clip to an m4a3 custom pistol. These are all ways I have got rekt by a SINGLE marine. If you focus fire at all you can drop any xeno fast. Marines just don't work as a team because they are too busy being memester snowflakes.

I'm just gonna add some damage rolls to the conversation :

_ 2 BC M41 AP bursts crit a young Rav+Mature Boiler+Young Crusher/an Elder T2 without Warding (aside from maybe hivelord unless RNG favors you on the damage roll)/literally every T1

_ Blue flame immediately chunks 60% off of Prae and Crusher (like 70% for Boiler) with the flame burst until Elder+, chunks T2s down to 15% (young just gets crit), and chunks T1 down to 5% (ancient, any younger and it's a crit). We're not counting additional steps on the blue fire tile.

_ 2 Cuckshot PB crits a young queen (maybe add a bayo stab if RNG shits on you), every young T3, every Elder T2 without Warding (aside from maybe Warrior and Hivelord if RNG shits on you), every T1

_ AT Rocket gibs every T2 and T1, young Rav, young Boiler; and it crits Queen, Mature Rav, Young Prae, Mature Boiler.

[Boersgard]

Marines will almost never hit 2x BC+AP M41 - poor accuracy to begin with so only a few bullets from each burst hits past point blank, and that's damage output on a young ravager when you're almost always running into mature or better. Nevermind that most marines won't have AP or BC, let alone BOTH. You're talking about 8+ hits at minimum with the highest damage fully kitted rifle marines can get, and if we're being realistic about it, more like 12+ hits.

Similarly, blue flamers are also rare, just one or two guys running with that if you're lucky.

There are only a handful of marine weapons that will actually kill xenos, let's not kid ourselves: PB Shotguns, HEDP stun + Concentrated fire from every marine in the vicinity, M56D, Artillery, and Rockets.
Every other weapon can be laughed at, ignored, or brushed off.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

Can't really say much about M39 since I don't see it used much and its AP can't be easily refilled like M41's

Can't say much about M4A3 now after its 2 nerfs to the damage and the availability of AP mags, but QF LS M4A3 with AP used to be able to crit every T1 and every Young T2 without Warding within 1 mag, crit every Elder T2 without Warding within 2 mags.

M44 is just a waste of time. If you see a marine using M44, just kill him because he's more harmful to himself and his team than to the xeno

BC Slug doesn't have many statistics on it, but I was able to crit an Elder Empress with 6 BC Slug shots before the xeno stat nerf.

Every BC stuff I mentioned also comes with RDS (aside from BC cuckshot), since that alone is more than enough to offset BC's accuracy debuff. BC M41 is also packing RDS and VGrip, so hitting shots 3-4 tiles away isn't that hard.

[lurkermain]

Eh, let's just say that both sides are capable of killing each other since, you know, it happens in every round and not derail this thread further, or maybe make some salt thread.

[kastion]

Eh, let's just say that both sides are capable of killing each other since, you know, it happens in every round and not derail this thread further, or maybe make some salt thread.

its not derailing they are crying about stats like everything is op and they have nothing that can even touch us. We are just pointing out their dishonesty and bias so that other people don't take their posts seriously when determining balance of a new mechanic.

[misto]

this sounds like a very, very interesting feature and i hope it continues to be developed. thank you

poison mutator - your scratches and acid spits now inject small amounts of poison causing toxin damage for bonuse damages
no body block mutator - you no longer bodyblock other xenos he he he ho ho ho

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

Folks, I have thought of some mutator builds, that simply adds on top of the normal xeno experience, and don't change your muscle memory too much:

ALL OF THESE SHOULD START WITH 1 SPEED UPGRADE, SINCE SPEED IS ESSENTIAL IN SS13 COMBAT

_ Runner : 1 to health, 1 to armor (or 2 health if you're worried about Cuck PB) and then max out tackle. Upgrade pulling speed if you want to meme.
_ Lurker : Max out your tankiness, since you already have enough slash damage for days. Put Elder+ points into tackle upgrade
_ Rav : MAX THE EVERLIVING SHIT OUT OF YOUR HEALTH AND ARMOR
_ Sentinel : About 2-3 upgrades to attack damage, then put points into your health/armor.
_ Spitter : Pretty much same as above, but maybe if acid spit gets a mutator, do that instead of health and armor since yours is decent enough already.
_ Boiler : Deck out your tankiness with your current points (Default+Mature Sent+Mature Spitter). Mature+ points should be put into bombard upgrade (cd and windup timer).
_ Defender : Even out the points between tackle rate and slash damage. Points gained at ancient should be used to top off your tankiness.
_ Warrior : Tankiness. Maybe one pounce upgrade to make sure you can reach the edge of your screen with lunge.
_ Crusher : Tackle for the stuff you already have(Default, Mature Defender, Mature Warrior). Mature+ points should be for tankiness.
_ Prae : Pretty free, just definitely put points into that single pheromone upgrade
_ Drone : Tankiness, tackle rate. Spread your points into those 2. Elder+ points should be for Hardy Weeds and 1 Pheromone upgrade
_ Hivelord : General action speed upgrade. Mature+ points should be for tackle rate and tankiness. Also yeah, pheromone upgrade.
_ Burrower : General action speed upgrade, and tackle rate
_ Carrier : Tankiness, definitely.


_ QUEEN : Start with "More T2 and T3", definitely help your hive with 1 speed upgrade, and the rest can be what you want. You're the queen, do it yourself.

[Reuben Owen]

i dont really get why everything costs 6 or 2 pts, couldnt it just be 3 and 1?

that being said say there was a really good ability that could cost more points (like 12) so you'd have to save em through multiple upgrades

also self faster upgrade that stacks with queens

or a upgrade that lets crusher start charge 1 tile earlier

[misto]

-thing that lets ravs charge a little farther
-defender can pick longer tail or spiked headplate to enhance tailspin or headbutt
-runner can pick a thing that lets them go invis like lurkers can
-drone can pick a thing that lets them carry... TWO? OR MAYBE EVEN THREE? EGGES!!!
-warrior can pick a thing to... er, boost punch or fling in some way, well, i think grab is pretty solid and doesnt need boosting
-lurker can pick a thing that lets them once more freely run over tables and windowframes the way runners do

-ability cooldown timer reducing picks

s o o o many options!!! a world of possibilities is open to you now!!!

probably regurg acid strength boost should cap at just one acid level up, so sents cannot become ultra melters, but spitters and a few others could

[Pulse Demon]

-thing that lets ravs charge a little farther
-defender can pick longer tail or spiked headplate to enhance tailspin or headbutt
-runner can pick a thing that lets them go invis like lurkers can
-drone can pick a thing that lets them carry... TWO? OR MAYBE EVEN THREE? EGGES!!!
-warrior can pick a thing to... er, boost punch or fling in some way, well, i think grab is pretty solid and doesnt need boosting
-lurker can pick a thing that lets them once more freely run over tables and windowframes the way runners do

-ability cooldown timer reducing picks

s o o o many options!!! a world of possibilities is open to you now!!!

probably regurg acid strength boost should cap at just one acid level up, so sents cannot become ultra melters, but spitters and a few others could

Insanely cool suggestions man, nice, I like them all!
Could we get harder walls? or is it too OP? like, drones can get something between their normal walls and hivelord walls, and hivelords can get walls that don't get shredded to bits in seconds. Could only be taken once for balance.

Regarding the balance of the already existing mutations, I feel like information needs to be more avaliable to all the players (some people aren't on testing days, some don't hop into forums/discord, some just rely on the wiki) specially stuff like stronger acid/pheros/weeds. I know the staff is against metainfo such as health numbers and what not but at this point feels like players wont choose effectively if they don't have a reference point.

Also, thank you for actively listening to our feedback and for putting efforts into so much new stuff.

[Heera-o]

I often play a Drone on the hive side. The weed mutation would be an issue. As a drone, spreading weeds is incredibly easy. With a few coordinated drones, we can easily get the map 75%+ covered before the marines even land. Hardening the weeds just slows the marine advance early game. The last round i played the marines made it to the entrance to the hive and they were stopped by the queens push back. While the marines cleared the weeds at the entrance and some of the weeds inside with flamers. It was nothing for me to run and drop, even while the marines fired. Harder weeds offer great tatical ability to slow the marines with no negative trade off.

[Reuben Owen]

for 18 pts... rav gets 2 square melee range

[TheMaskedMan2]

Hardier weeds are pretty tough and i'd argue instead it should be a Hive-wide Queen Mutation instead of for individual drones.

Then again it doesn't effect me that much since I tend to pack a good old fashioned machete or a bayonet.

[CABAL]

Hardier weeds are pretty tough and i'd argue instead it should be a Hive-wide Queen Mutation instead of for individual drones.

Then again it doesn't effect me that much since I tend to pack a good old fashioned machete or a bayonet.

It does affect you. Other marines are not cutting weeds for you, so you have to be weed monkey and mown the law yourself.

Taking off machete just to cut weeds is ridiculous. I'm thinking now every round about begging pyro spec for his backpack to use welder fuel just to clean shit which will take about 5 seconds for one drone to undo what I did and even more.

[Cry of Wolves]

Maybe to reduce big fat stacks to speed or armor is to make the last upgrade something grand.

The posts before gave great ideas for it like giving runners invisiblity or maybe even make runners fireproof like ravs. Something big but only if they live long enough to reach ancient.

[CABAL]

Maybe to reduce big fat stacks to speed or armor is to make the last upgrade something grand.

The posts before gave great ideas for it like giving runners invisiblity or maybe even make runners fireproof like ravs. Something big but only if they live long enough to reach ancient.

I don't think that making fire even more useless is a good idea. Fire is like the only counter for fast moving xenos.
Alteast they should have clear indication that they are fireproof. Otherwise, it's unfair.

[LubedDwarf]

I would really just want more specialized mutations. Stats boosts can be fine and all, but truly unique mutations would be more fun. Maybe a mutation to have light telekinesis at the cost of health or a mutation to have a venomous bite/slash.

[Nimiety]

> ravager takes 3x damage every tier
> queen takes pheromones
> frenzy
Goodbye hands

[Solarmare]

Increased healing while resting on weeds could be a hive mutation the queen could take.

[Bancrose]

Since we have multi larva bursts, We should NOT be able to buy larva at all.

Also there was a bug as a Queen the first time we did it where everytime I upgraded. I could rebuy hive mutators.

Speed is pretty strong. Young Praetorians were abusing the Pheromone Strength Mutators, Runners were so fast they were incapable of clicking ANYONE!

I had so much health as an Elder Queen, I was tanking PB's and outrunning marines. Also was running as fast as a young lurker.

Lurkers took 3x the Damage buff, Hit a marine ONCE and this dude literally had 3 bone breaks.

Should probably dial it back where you may notice a difference in the stats but not to the point where me and my hive won the planet in about 15 minutes or less.

[misto]

Since we have multi larva bursts, We should NOT be able to buy larva at all.

it is true - buying larva undermines the job of carriers and drones and etc

then perhaps it could be a purchase of improved multi burst odds instead

[kastion]

idk why yall keep acting like 5 larva is a big deal. even on low pop its nothing.

[Avalanchee]

idk why yall keep acting like 5 larva is a big deal. even on low pop its nothing.

This is not true.
10 xenos / 15 xenos is a big difference on lowpop unless they pick drone and go for a support caste.

Also the delay is fucking real

[kastion]

This is not true.
10 xenos / 15 xenos is a big difference on lowpop unless they pick drone and go for a support caste.

Also the delay is fucking real

Ya I could see buying it at the end and being annoying with delay being a big deal. I have played enough xeno to know that out of 5 larva 3 will suicide at young and only 1 of the other 2 will even get to evolve so I just don't see it being that big of a deal. You gotta remember though that in low pop there are 20 larva sitting unburrowed for half the game. In high pop you may run out of burrowed larva with players still waiting.

[lurkermain]

This is not true.
10 xenos / 15 xenos is a big difference on lowpop unless they pick drone and go for a support caste.

Also the delay is fucking real

Would lategame larvas really fall under delay? If (after a setback) there is a queen, they get an upgrade and go with larvas I'd say that it creates a chance for a comeback, not delay.
But the question could be, do xenos deserve this kind of comeback after failing? I'd say it's a design question.