Xeno Mutator discussion

[ThePiachu]

As some of you might've seen, we are currently running periodic tests of the new xeno feature - the Mutators.

For those that missed our two tests so far - xenos will be getting "perks" they can use to boost their stats and abilities. Those include boost to plasma, stronger weeds, pheromones, stronger acid, etc. The system is flexible enough to let you tailor your xeno to your gameplay. Moreover, the Queen is able to buy some Mutators that will affect the entire Hive to further direct the flow of the game. You gain more Mutator points by maturing, meaning T1s will get more Mutators faster (making them more viable to play), but if T3s manage to live long enough might become even more deadly.

At the moment we are at the bugfixing and balancing stage. So if you found something that doesn't work as you think it should, or feel some Mutator or set of Mutators is broken or overpowered, let us know so we can work the kinks out faster.

----

For those that have participated in our tests - please keep this in mind:

- First test that took place about a week ago was very unbalanced. It was meant to test if the systems behaved accordingly, which they did. Expect way way less power from the final mutators
- Second test was a lot more in-line with what we expect the 1.0 release to look like. However, a major bug affected the round - burrowed larva did not properly decrease. This, coupled with a lot of people wanting to try the mutators during highpop meant there were way way more xenos than there should be in play.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

Larva pack will never be balance, so let's get rid of that first

[kastion]

would help if you listed the stuff since some of us arent on when you test it

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

would help if you listed the stuff since some of us arent on when you test it

[ThePiachu]

Larva pack will never be balance, so let's get rid of that first

Please elaborate why you think that.

I see the larva infusion to be useful in a few scenarios:
- You take it early so you get a boost of xenos before the Marines drop. Depending on the final number of larva created, you could get 1-2 extra T3s out of it
- You take it if the Hive got hit hard and you need to recover

The larva pack is also the only Mutator so far that can be taken only once ever in the game - even if a Queen dies, the next Queen won't be able to take it again, to prevent endless waves of larva bursts.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

Please elaborate why you think that.

I see the larva infusion to be useful in a few scenarios:
- You take it early so you get a boost of xenos before the Marines drop. Depending on the final number of larva created, you could get 1-2 extra T3s out of it
- You take it if the Hive got hit hard and you need to recover

The larva pack is also the only Mutator so far that can be taken only once ever in the game - even if a Queen dies, the next Queen won't be able to take it again, to prevent endless waves of larva bursts.

Firstly, I still heard that queen was still able to pick up multiple larva packs in the latest test, so that's that. Secondly, in both situations you presented, larva pack just outweigh every other mutator, because you simply get more larva, either for early game, or late game. If even with the mutators and xeno are still getting kicked, why should they be able to recover if they don't have captures ready? And if it's early game, what stops them from just auto-picking larva pack option and get in more xeno earlier? It's just such a no-brainer and easy to take option that I wish it would just disappear and let queens actually pick a stat upgrade for the hive.

[digitalattack]

I'v yet to be able to play one of the test rounds my self, but I'v heard the boost acid and acid damage don't effect acid spit and I'm assuming the rest of the acid ability's, which I was assuming at least one of the two would or poor old spitter is going to be left in the dust with acid spit on them becoming even more of a meme.

[Build_R_]

What are the queen's mutators?

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

What are the queen's mutators?

My picture + 1 larva mutator which is basically a larva pack. The amount of larva that comes in the pack, I'm not sure, but apparently, it's enough to "recover" the hive

[CABAL]

Weed mutator is pain in the ass. Xenos without it were able to just shit this out faster than you can destroy it. Now it's pointless to even try, entire colony might be as well weeded. No difference. Weedkiller spray would have to be available for marines to get rid of it, but xenos would just "suicide charge" to put that one node for infinite amount of time in front of cades with knowledge that if marines want to clear it, they have to spend a lot of time.

Also Ancient Defender and Crusher with maxed armor is what concerns me. I think castes that specialise in something shouldn't be able to "boost" it further. Rav shouldn't get more damage and Crusher/Defender shouldn't get more armor.

[blingx3]

Hi Piachu, I'm not a coder but I have a few questions, does the mutation boost multiple armor level with a certain value or is it just added on top another, becase in the tests every upgrade exaggerates the skill upgraded, either it's speed, armor etc..

on the gameplay aspect, I think this is one of the best ideas, if refined and balanced can be a very attractive idea to new comers and grunts alike. I played xeno around 15 min with the test so I couldn't know or see how it affected the hive on a round bases, but I was a marine, and I can tell you that getting chassed by a boiler that has the speed of an elder runner is no fun, and fucking scary to be honest.

[lurkermain]

It's really hard to decide how to use this because knowing specifics on CM like health values is considered a crime against humanity. Ok, so I mature then I pick health upgrade. I receive the health upgrade. Is it worth it? Who knows? What does the armor upgrade do exactly? What's the exact benefit of taking the upgrade multiple times? How can we make decisions without information?
I can probably test it out and get some kind of impression of what these things do but I'd need weeks and die shitload of times.

I have two questions though: Do xenos receive any bonuses when they mature aside from these mutation points?
The second one: Let's say I make it to ancient runner, what upgrades would I have to pick if I wanted to be exactly like an ancient runner before the mutator system?

[Saytkl77]

It's really hard to decide how to use this because knowing specifics on CM like health values is considered a crime against humanity. Ok, so I mature than I pick health upgrade. I receive the health upgrade. Is it worth it? Who knows? What does the armor upgrade do exactly? What's the exact benefit of taking the upgrade multiple times? How can we make decisions without information?
I can probably test it out and get some kind of impression of what these things do but I'd need weeks and die shitload of times.

I have two questions though: Do xenos receive any bonuses when they mature aside from these mutation points?
The second one: Let's say I make it to ancient runner, what upgrades would I have to pick if I wanted to be exactly like an ancient runner before the mutator system?

You need to be very careful here, asking for actual stats or sharing test results is a bannable offense. You should just know the answer to your questions is that the mutations provide "some" benefit, unless they are bugged.

[kastion]

Weed mutator is pain in the ass. Xenos without it were able to just shit this out faster than you can destroy it. Now it's pointless to even try, entire colony might be as well weeded. No difference. Weedkiller spray would have to be available for marines to get rid of it, but xenos would just "suicide charge" to put that one node for infinite amount of time in front of cades with knowledge that if marines want to clear it, they have to spend a lot of time.

Also Ancient Defender and Crusher with maxed armor is what concerns me. I think castes that specialise in something shouldn't be able to "boost" it further. Rav shouldn't get more damage and Crusher/Defender shouldn't get more armor.

point blank ignores armor and AP should actually be required for something besides more damage I dont see a problem

[kastion]

do mutations have diminishing returns or is each time you pick it gonna give you the same boost? What does acid do? is it for melting stuff like you go from sentinel acid to boiler acid?

[kastion]

I'v yet to be able to play one of the test rounds my self, but I'v heard the boost acid and acid damage don't effect acid spit and I'm assuming the rest of the acid ability's, which I was assuming at least one of the two would or poor old spitter is going to be left in the dust with acid spit on them becoming even more of a meme.

sentinel is already better than spitter so theres no leaving them in the dust, they already got left.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

do mutations have diminishing returns or is each time you pick it gonna give you the same boost? What does acid do? is it for melting stuff like you go from sentinel acid to boiler acid?

Acid boost affects melt and can take you from sentinel melt to boiler's, yes

[kastion]

how many points do you get per upgrade? is it the same for each tier of xeno?

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

how many points do you get per upgrade? is it the same for each tier of xeno?

Not sure how many points you get per age, but you get 6 by default (larva into something)

[kastion]

boost pheromones will be pretty nasty op im betting if it works how i think it does. Drones with prae pheromones ez op. That is assuming drone players will be team players.

[Build_R_]

In order to accommodate for the mutators, are the base stats lowered? If so, by how much?

[ThePiachu]

Okay, before we get too much into speculation theory, there were a lot of changes between the first and the second mutator test in terms of balance.

Attached is the list of Hive mutators the Queen can currently buy. Individual mutators are similar, just remove stuff that's obviously meant for the Hive, add faster pulling and wider gas spread for Boilers.



Onto some of the points raised:

- Sure, a pack of larva is good, but you are sacrificing getting a few xenos now vs being able to boost the hive in the long-term. With the current amount of options for the Queen, I'd see it as an interesting, but not a default choice. At the moment you get 5 larva this way.
- Xeno spit mutators are not coming for now, since spit by itself needs to be a bit rebalanced
- Weed mutator has been toned back a bit. You can only take it once, and the Queen can take it once, so you can get some strong weeds out, but at a cost. Hardy weeds were tuned to take two hits from a pulse rifle bash, but only one from bayonetted pulse rifle bash
- Armour boosting is less effective the more armour you have (since we're operating on a percentage scale, so adding a flat boost could make the Crusher indestructible for example)
- Speed boost has been nerfed - you can only take it once
- Mutators apply on top of normal maturity bonuses
- Stat bonuses are at about 5-10%, and stack if you can take them multiple times. I'm aiming to make them a viable choice, a bit bland, but not too powerful or game-changing
- Acid boost bumps your acid level one higher - so Sentinel to Spitter, Spitter to Boiler. The cost is appropriate to the level, so you are balancing strength vs cost here
- At the moment you get 6 mutator points per level, but all mutators cost 6 as well for easier balancing. Cost of mutators will be tuned in the future to allow better variety of play
- Pheromones boost is comparable to getting an extra maturity of being a Drone - enough to be useful, hopefully not enough to break the game
- Base stats have not been lowered. Only change that has been made was a bugfix on a Boiler to re-enable its gas to scale with maturity. For now, base gas radius has been lowered by 1 tile, but it now properly increases with age

[Boersgard]

As we've seen already in a few playtests, xenos having more numbers = win every time

Even major upgrades don't matter as much as having another 2-3 xenos with you in an attack. Or being able to quickly and easily replace losses while still being very strong on an individual level. At the moment you need about 2-3 marines to defeat 1 xeno, and once you start giving xenos effectively infinite replacements there's nothing marines can really do to win. I've watched several rounds now with the current larva bug where marines annihilated xenos, racking up easily 20+ kills in the early game, and by mid game xenos are still rocking numbers in the 30's, and if the marines aren't doing well, in the mid 50's.

Larva can work if you're willing to scale how powerful xenos are in general and make them more expendable, otherwise it's just turning games into unfun stomps (they are already unfun stomps way too often).

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

Queen chooses "Get an infusion of larva" and "More T2, T3 slots". It's super effective!

[kastion]

As we've seen already in a few playtests, xenos having more numbers = win every time

Even major upgrades don't matter as much as having another 2-3 xenos with you in an attack. Or being able to quickly and easily replace losses while still being very strong on an individual level. At the moment you need about 2-3 marines to defeat 1 xeno, and once you start giving xenos effectively infinite replacements there's nothing marines can really do to win. I've watched several rounds now with the current larva bug where marines annihilated xenos, racking up easily 20+ kills in the early game, and by mid game xenos are still rocking numbers in the 30's, and if the marines aren't doing well, in the mid 50's.

Larva can work if you're willing to scale how powerful xenos are in general and make them more expendable, otherwise it's just turning games into unfun stomps (they are already unfun stomps way too often).

dude he said it was 1 time for 5 larva. That is hardly infinite replacements.