What is standard medical knowledge in CM?

[Challenger]

What should the average grunt should know about medical? What's strictly off-limits, what's encouraged to be known, and what knowledge depends on roleplay?

The Squad Marine wiki page lists says this on the matter:

What your training should have taught you:

- Use of Health analyzers.
- Use of Autoinjectors.
- Use of Trauma/Burn kits.

What you maggots were never trained in:

- How to slice someone open and save their life. (Surgery.)
- How to use Defibrillators.

So on the one end you have the stuff that a grunt obviously wouldn't know how to do like surgery, and stable revival from the dead, and on the other end you know that grunts can use all patches, autoinjectors, and health analyzers. But there are a ton of items in between: splints, "common" pills, "advanced" pills, syringes, and bottles. Previously in ahelping the issue I got the answer that grunts are expected to be able to use anything that appears in a medkit, which means that they DO how to theoretically use pills, syringes and bottles from a syringe kit, advanced patches and splints since those appear in advanced aid kits.

So then PFCs do know how to use every tool in the medic's arsenal bar defibrillator. Then the question becomes, what drugs should they be confident about using?

- Should grunts be aware of the painkiller drugs? It's obvious that they should know Tramadol, because MEDIC GIMME TRAMADOL SHAKE ME UP I CAN PUSH MY GUTS IN MYSELF THANK YOU VERY MUCH is the staple grunt battlecry, but what about the weaker Inaprovaline, much stronger Oxycodone, and obscure Paracetamol?
- Should they also know the basic four damage healers for each type of damage, Bicaridine, Kelotane, Dexalin, and Dylovene? What about the more advanced Dermaline and Dexalin plus?
- Should PFCs have knowledge of the magic drug that stops their tummy from hurting, Peridaxon? Iron to regenerate blood loss? Quick clot to see their blood vessels bubble up and burst all over their skin? Spaceacillin, the thing everyone takes for a flu? Russian Red to fight radiation?

Basically, is knowledge of the drugs IC as simple as it is OOC, or is there some standard to determine what they know? If we take the "medkit standard", then grunts know about every common drug except Oxycodone, Peridaxon, Quick Clot, and Iron. Although any idiot could match "internal bleeding detected" on their health scanner with the drug that has "clot" in its name, so they should know about that too.

When we let the grunts know about these drugs, we start putting pressure on what it means to be a medic. If grunts can use all autoinjectors, pills, and bottles, then a medic's exclusive knowledge would be in the use and refilling of a hypospray, and the defibrillator. Personally for gameplay reasons, I'd be fine with medics essentially being PFCs who know how can bring the dead back to life, because on highpop you essentially have 8 medics (at least 2 will be baldies) responsible for the health of 100+ marines, and it'd just be unfun as fuck to be 15th in line for a splint because the only medic your side of the battlefield is focused on reviving and pulling out of crit a flood of baldies who graduated the Prometheus School of Running Away from Crushers. Even worse than that is lying in paincrit from some stupid, effect-mitigable injury like blood loss or brain damage that a single pill could fix.

This doesn't mean I want grunts to know all this stuff because I want marines to win more, honestly I hate the atmosphere and wild goose chase of marine planetside victories, I just don't think the expectation to spend 1/3rd of the average round lying down or shuffling around in paincrit with white vision s-stam-mering m-my word-d-s over the radio is that fun for anyone involved. Nor does it mean I want to detract from immersion or roleplay either in doing this, as a grunt if I'm talking about peridaxon I'm gonna call it "that guts pusher in drug" and sometimes "pop two of these to be safe" (giving myself a shitload of toxins) while as a medic I exhort its pharmaceutical properties. I've gone further sometimes and picked up the Combat Lifesaver Belts and HUDs from downed medics and essentially begun to treat patients in their wake, though obviously with a lot more talking and stumbling around going on compared to how I play as a medic. Regardless, the community's conflicted about all of the above, so...

...what are your thoughts?

[Tristan63]

Grunts should know how to use defibs, on most defibrillators nowadays they come with a instruction leaflet or some sort of start-up instructions written on it.
I laughed when you said "Advanced pills"

[Challenger]

Grunts knowing defibs IN ADDITION to all of the above that I've stated would essentially make the medic's rank worthless since then apparently they'd just be PFCs with a special belt and access. I personally just abstract the defibrillator away as one component of a larger toolkit that the medic uses on dead people to get them revived. Stuff like epinephrine injections or something I dunno. Maybe all grunts are implanted with special revival electrodes in them and only the use of a defibrillator-like system by trained personnel will bring them back to life using such electrodes.

[Tristan63]

A balance issue, yes. Make the defibs ID locked would make more sense in my opinion to prevent grunts from stealing them, since they are worth alot.

[jaggaaff]

Standards can litterally use everything a squad medic can besides the defibs. And that's good as medics are to be used as (from my perspective) DEDICATED healers who are supposed to carry all the shit and be the one to come to if you ran out of any actual meds or need QC/someothershit. As the OP stated, it's really not fucking fun to sit there in paincrit with a foggy-ass vision and even then wait until the stun timer has cycled to even get up after paincrit unless someone helps you up. So it's good as of now not to change what standards can do medically.

[Challenger]

I've gotten odd looks for using something as simple as a syringe kit, and messaged by mods for using a CLB to treat others (from a medic who killed himself) instead of, in their words, "giving it to a medic"... don't think those other medics have two groins to carry two belts so I just tossed it onto the floor for everyone to use instead. Same mod said I should avoid splinting others as well. Seeing as there's a wide variety of opinions on this even from the higher ups, it'd be good if we could come to a consensus on the issue here.

[Ikmalmn]

Hmm, a neat question and dilemma you brought up.

A dilemma, that only with the power of the higher ups can truly answer.

However, in my opinion, it all comes to balance and seeing the realistic scenario if we ourselves, would be pitted the situations IRL. Like for example, a standard shouldn't really know how to use an ATK or a ABK, those things uses stuff that quite complicated and complex like regenerative membrane glue and such (Ironically, I steal this stuff at first chance as a standard). As for the chem pills, sure tramadol should be already well known by any soldier since by this point, they probably watched enough action movies to know that it relieves pain. As for chems that heals brute and burns like Bicardine and Kelotane, I'm in the fence about this, though balance wise, you shouldn't be able to know what it does, at the least, how much it takes before it's an OD. Other than that, chems should be only use from medics. Unless, there's a pill bottle that's​ obviously named (BLOOD REGEN, TAKE FOR LOW BLOOD) or (THIS THING HEALS YOUR LUNGS AND BRAIN) if so, then there's an IC reason to at least use it.

For defibs, yeah...I think a standard shouldn't be able to use it. It's waaaaay to OP if a standard could use it. Though however, I've receive conflicting stuff from different mods on who could use it, one says no one except medics can use it. The other, stating that SL can also use it.

For splints, I think a standard should be able to use it. I mean, it's like a basic of basic first aid training you were probably taught as a Colonial Scout Rangers.

[Symbiosis]

So, a squad is balanced around two Medics during high POP. If I get tackled by a Crusher and stomped and the other Medic is dead/SSD, should I be dismissed from the round? (I know Medics are heavy targets, as much as a SADAR user)

* There is a finite amount of Medical supplies that WITHOUT a Medic's ID cannot be replenished.
* We as players know the Medicines of the SS13 universe, quite like most Infantry know what Morphine is. Quickclot is the equivalence of a tourniquet or packing wounds, I've trained so many Soldiers on BLS (basic lifesaving skills), they'd have the same training in the USCM universes I imagine. The Medic will be a target for rebels as much as they are in the real world by the enemy. Having brain dead grunts is a BAD idea.
* Defib use is the ruling of the Admins. Quite like setting up a Sentry is likely tied to Engineers. It's what makes the job unique. I wouldn't mind having it so SL's were able to use a Defib. That way if the one Medic gets hit by an Ayy and insta-KIA'ed the squad isn't without a Medic. Pulls the SL out of leading temporarily and allows someone to continue the round.
* Medics CAN amputate. This is BIG when you have patients with heavy burn/brute damage over 250 after treating.
* If we want to create more diversity within the medical field, place two-four Hypos in the MarineMed vendors. Have THESE ID locked. It gives medics the chance to free up 5 belt slots (Ecample - QC/Bic mix in a bottle/hypo) and is invaluable for quick treatment. Add bottles into the MarineMed vendors. It'll create less mess of injectors lying everywhere and make the job more diverse.
* Final Note - I primarily play squad Medic. I enjoy RP'ing with wounded Marines and giving them a chance to stay in the round as long as possible. If Xenos inevitably won every round due to overwhelming the Marines with limitless larva, I'd still be here. Last stands are fun, mop ups are a bit less fun. I'd LOVE to see more diversity in Medics, not necessarily surgery capabilities, but loadout wise!

[dylanstrategie]

I'd say anything that comes from the public medical closets are a safe bet. Of course, the average Marine is perfectly capable of bandaging and salving wounds. Jabbing "healing syringes" is fine too. Health analyzers is already a bit more complicated, though it's probably fair enough to look at it to see if you need a trip to Medbay or not

The rest, not really, even the defib apparently

[Karmac]

It's really as simple as the wiki page states, you know marines CAN read right? And that almost every chem/autoinjector is labelled or color coded? We're only very specific that you don't defib or commence surgery.

[Casany]

I think the whole arguement that if marines can use all medical items means that medics are useless is bullshit. Medics are dedicated healers, AND they actually get access to the supplies. Marines have to fight and usually never get access to these chems

I think marines should be allowed to use all the pills and trauma kits/burn kits. I'm fine if they can't use syringes or defibs though

See, at a certain time you have to look at it from a gameplay>role play point of view. I'd rather be able to enjoy my round than have to RP being clueless as I'm bleeding out with my guts everywhere on the floor.

[Karmac]

Also did you know anyone can setup a sentry gun or mounted gun.

[Ikmalmn]

Also did you know anyone can setup a sentry gun or mounted gun.

Is this a fact or a bait to get people bannu'd?

[Challenger]

> What your training should have taught you:

> Moving and setting up a sentry.

Apparently it was there the whole time.

[Karmac]

I wrote that standard guide, I'm not wrong.

[TheMaskedMan2]

I mean even the m56d comes with the tools to set it up. Marines know how to look at the step-by-step guide that is likely printed on the side of the crates.

[Supermichael777]

the crate is in Moonspeak though

[jusa297]

I always thought that bandages and ointments were the things that standards should use, since every idiot can use one and it's on the "Basic first aid kit" and advanced brute and burn patches were for medics since they look complex and they are in the "advanced first aid kit".
But that's just my take.

[RobBrown4PM]

I've never served, but from what I know all Army personal are given basic combat first aid training, that would likely include such things as applying dressings, general wound care, stabilizing broken bones, CPR, et cetra.

Civilian First aid training includes CPR and Defib training. It's only reasonable to presume that Marines should know how to operate a defib, especially if their allowed to perform CPR. Granted, defibs work differently in-game than they do in-real life (Their not magic revivers, they only send a shock if they sense an irregular heart beat), but that doesen't mean the knowledge on how to use them should be some sort of secret that only medics and doc's know.