The whole MP situation.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » 26 Jul 2017, 14:36

Philby0 wrote:mentor =/= admin

It says he's an admin on the forums tho

misto · Post by **misto** » 26 Jul 2017, 14:39

mps basically enjoy it when ppl resist arrest or make trouble, dont they? thats like their main source of anything to do for most of the round until xenos get loose/crash into the ship or hostile erts arrive

Philby0 · Post by **Philby0** » 26 Jul 2017, 14:56

Swagile wrote:I am simply stating that tensions would lower if brig time was cut in half as it isn't as much of a round ruining experience

Most time is under 20, and 5 is the minimum for minor offences and 10 for medium ones. I don't really see how 5 or 10 minutes off is round ruining.
Especially considering anything under that would be a joke. Basically microwave times.

Swagile wrote:get angry when they miss the fun stuff in the game then rebel against MP's

So yeah when they are to be arrested for minor disrespect, surrendering and taking the 5 minutes is nothing in a 2-3 hours rounds. In comparison, going to jail in monopoly takes more time off the game. On the other hand, chasing a suspect that runs, hides and resists can take a good 30 minutes alone, and the crimes committed in the process make the jailtime longer.

misto wrote:mps basically enjoy it when ppl resist arrest or make trouble, dont they? thats like their main source of anything to do for most of the round until xenos get loose/crash into the ship or hostile erts arrive

There are two things I hate doing as a MP. Chasing people who run for minor offences, and having to deal with xenos. What you're saying would apply for shit MPs I guess. What I like is to go around the ship making sure everything is fine for everyone, de-escalating bad situations... And you'd be surprised how busy we can be even in a round with no arrests.

Crab_Spider · Post by **Crab_Spider** » 26 Jul 2017, 15:46

Terminutter wrote:While I agree that penalties are typically too harsh, I also encounter an awful lot of people who will ragequit as soon as they are taken in. The last round I was CMP in was a lowpop one where we arrested maybe six people over the round. Of those, all but one ragequit, when I was strictly issuing minimum sentences (except for one dude who was pushing it and got a middleground). I even had a guy who had a five minute sentence log out!

That's also one thing. People are assuming a minimum sentence is being harsh. The mimimum sentence. The lowest amount of time you'll get. Before I even got banned. I knocked 2-5 minutes from a sentence if there was decent behavior, and to this day, Dolth is assuming I'm a bad MP because I arrested him.

Dolth · Post by **Dolth** » 26 Jul 2017, 17:49

You are a dick AND a bad MP.
Jokes aside, I know you knocked my time off a bit but as I said, it was an accident and clearly not intended. And that shovel was folded. A cop doesn't arrest you if you stumble on something and headbutt him then excuse your clumsiness and stay as cooperative as you can.

It's not looking away, it's not NOT enforcing laws.

► Show Spoiler

Philby0 · Post by **Philby0** » 26 Jul 2017, 18:06

Dolth wrote:A cop doesn't arrest you if you stumble on something and headbutt him then excuse your clumsiness and stay as cooperative as you can.[/spoil]

I'm pretty sure if I accidentally headbutt a cop, I'm lucky if I get out in less than 12 hours.

But seriously, I'm convinced a major quality a MP should have is knowing how to handle provocations.

Challenger · Post by **Challenger** » 26 Jul 2017, 18:12

Had a situation where a visibly new player picked up a gyro shotgun then clicked on me to face me when I told them to stop for an unrelated reason.

The buckblast broke my ribs and head. I ahelped and it was left as an ic issue. I had those two splints on me and minor brain damage for the rest of the round.

I gave the baldie a warning.

Nickvr628 · Post by **Nickvr628** » 26 Jul 2017, 18:26

Imagine the street cred he got from point blank buckshotting a MP and getting away with it!

Imagine what he did to the xenos- or his squad mates...

Skimmy2 · Post by **Skimmy2** » 26 Jul 2017, 22:38

New server rule about mutinies "You MUST have complained to the Chief MP or MPs which resulted in them doing nothing to improve the situation (or if they made it worse)"

RIP round start mutinies.

Maybe now the MP x Marine relationship will be mended!

Crab_Spider · Post by **Crab_Spider** » 26 Jul 2017, 22:48

Skimmy2 wrote:New server rule about mutinies "You MUST have complained to the Chief MP or MPs which resulted in them doing nothing to improve the situation (or if they made it worse)"

RIP round start mutinies.

Maybe now the MP x Marine relationship will be mended!

Oh yeah. Definitely.

WinterClould · Post by **WinterClould** » 26 Jul 2017, 22:54

Skimmy2 wrote:New server rule about mutinies "You MUST have complained to the Chief MP or MPs which resulted in them doing nothing to improve the situation (or if they made it worse)"

RIP round start mutinies.

Maybe now the MP x Marine relationship will be mended!

It's all down hill from here.

4thsurviver · Post by **4thsurviver** » 27 Jul 2017, 03:35

misto wrote:mps basically enjoy it when ppl resist arrest or make trouble, dont they? thats like their main source of anything to do for most of the round until xenos get loose/crash into the ship or hostile erts arrive

Personally I hate resisters. I'm not very robust so they are likely to get away or complicate my day. I do like when they struggle in comical way designed to amuse rather than frustrate or pick an interesting hiding spot. I'll reduce their resisting charges or even get rid of them if they fail to evade me and accept defeat with good humor. I find most of my MP entertainment comes from talking to marines in and out of the brig. I like to know why they commit the crimes they do and come to an understanding or try and get them to roll over on accomplices.

One thing I see people forget is that a lot of crimes have a third party involved. The victim or the wronged party. A lot of times the MP can't get away with just giving a warning or light sentence because you have a victim wanting blood and breathing down your neck. I've had times where people have gotten pissed that whoever wronged them got minimal sentencing or refused to work until someone was jailed for a accidental discharge.

Dolth · Post by **Dolth** » 27 Jul 2017, 05:19

What if someone shoots a wall on accident cause he was setting his attachment, he says sorry and immediatly holsters his rifle.

GoliathTheDespoiler · Post by **GoliathTheDespoiler** » 27 Jul 2017, 06:40

Dolth wrote:What if someone shoots a wall on accident cause he was setting his attachment, he says sorry and immediatly holsters his rifle.

You get them for not putting the safety on.

Honestly guns should start with the safety on to avoid misfires.

Dolth · Post by **Dolth** » 27 Jul 2017, 07:30

Goliath wrote:You get them for not putting the safety on.

Honestly guns should start with the safety on to avoid misfires.

That's not in the Marine Law BUT I highly agree with the safetyt thing. I personally put my guns on safety if they are 1h, as long as I am not deployed (And when I cut weed also, avoid misfire).

Post by **Steelpoint** » 27 Jul 2017, 07:47

There's a saftey to the guns now?

coroneljones · Post by **coroneljones** » 27 Jul 2017, 08:09

Dolth wrote:What if someone shoots a wall on accident cause he was setting his attachment, he says sorry and immediatly holsters his rifle.

Minor weapons protocol violation, which would be a warning if it was their first offense

GoliathTheDespoiler · Post by **GoliathTheDespoiler** » 27 Jul 2017, 08:30

Steelpoint wrote:There's a saftey to the guns now?

Yep. Alt-click sprite in hand and safety is enabled.

Challenger · Post by **Challenger** » 28 Jul 2017, 15:00

Yesterday I had a fairly interesting round as CMP with Stan Philby as one of my MPs, and three survivors who came up on the Almayer (Zachariah Hakwer, Adam Ulysses, Kit Clover). It spawned quite a bit of conflict on the relationship between the marines, Marine Law, and survivors who come up to the Almayer.

It began with reports of two survivors running around the Almayer in full armor and with multiple weapons on them. The CL nabbed them and they locked themselves into the CL's office.

What is the bare minimum that the MPs should be doing to unprocessed survivors who land on the Almayer?

There are three laws that survivors are likely breaking on the Almayer once they're on. These are:

- Unauthorized Weapon: survivors can't have any weapons on them. No long rifles, no handguns, no bootknives.
- Contraband: survivors have 0 access and 0 duty on the Almayer, so they wouldn't be allowed to have anything that isn't purely civilian gear, or something they could get by just walking around the hallways of the Almayer. So medical gear, ammunition, armor, and other such gear would be confiscated.
- Improper uniform: survivors can wear whatever they want so long as they remain identifiable at a glance as a civilian (so no wearing USCM uniforms, but boots are ok). Also no armor. So they wouldn't be allowed to keep armor or helmets or the uniform they stole off a dead marine on their person.

Going by procedure, to make the process of confiscation nice and easy, we would be charging the survivors with at least one of these three crimes, arresting them, bringing them into the brig, stripping them of all illegal items, and then instantly releasing them because we don't actually want to punish them and being civilians they likely had no deep knowledge of what Marine Law entails.

However since we were already in the CL's office and had a very tense situation with five people packed into a room all yelling at each other, to defuse the situation I gave the CL the opportunity to strip the survivors first and stow all their gear in his office's locker, since it would be adequately "secured" there. Sadly the CL sucked at his job and couldn't do diplomacy or take control of the conversation in the room for the life of him so we ended up having to strip the survivors with the arguments just getting louder.

At this point the survivors and Philby started contesting four things: survivors aren't subject to Marine Law in the full extent, it is illegal to steal from survivors/WY, survivors are not directly subordinate to all military crew, and subordinates can not be ordered to hand over their gear.

Are survivors subject to Marine Law?

Yes. UCMJ also applies to all personnel who are in the vicinity of a USCM Operation or on board a ship. All laws apply to them.

Is it illegal to directly steal from survivors or the colony?

No. Theft is defined as To retain possession of items belonging to another marine. I believe the use of the word "marine" here was chosen carefully, as otherwise it would be a violation of Marine Law to ransack the WY colony for supplies, or to requisition vital gear from the WY liaison, survivors, or doctors.

That being said if you just steal from doctors/the WY rep/the civilians for shits and giggles you'd likely get hooliganism/disorderly conduct charges applied along with potential consequences from WY.

Are survivors subordinate to the crew of the Almayer?

This shouldn't even be a question. Obviously yes. Doctors, the WY Liaison, and civilians are all subordinate to PFCs and above. Again, stupid orders are gonna lead to hooliganism/disorderly conduct charges, and in the case of doctors, would likely be illegal because then they'd be neglecting their duty (so you can't order a doctor to bump you for triage, proper triage is a vital part of their duties). But in the end, yes - survivors can be used as unpaid interns, though obviously if your character is sane and competent you probably will want to let them rest and recover from whatever PTSD they're afflicted with.

Can you order subordinates to hand over gear?

Tricky question. In the case of civilians, YES, because any order to retain their possessions is legal under Marine Law, since you can't steal from them. In the case of marines, I would also say YES, because "items belonging to another marine" would IMO only constitute personal stuff, like the gear you spawn with when you wake up and whatever's in your personal quarters and not work-related (eg CE's packet of cigarettes). Things like armor, gear, weapons on marines I wouldn't believe actually "belong" to them, and you should be able to for example order the engineer to give you C4 in the middle of combat so you can breach a hole out without him complaining to the WO later that you "stole" it. That being said, if you nick someone's attachments with this excuse, the RO's probably gonna order you to give them back once he hears and the WO might arrest you for the stupidity of doing so.

So this longpost all culminates into one thing:

Why are you being a dick to survivors and ordering them to hand over almost all of their things?

In which case I would quote from an old thread on tactics apop wrote (http://cm-ss13.com/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=4631):

SURVIVORS SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED TO BRING BACK WEAPONS TO THE SULACO AND SHOULD BE SEARCHED. If a survivor is bringing an SMG and ammo back to the Sulaco, it's wasting materials you could be using on the planet. If possible, strip survivors down to just their jumpsuit and keep anything else useful. They shouldn't need it on the sulaco.

The general idea of "why the fuck are we letting survivors keep multiple special military-grade weapons, incendiary slugs, hypospray, medHUD etc when those could be going to the marines fighting planetside" meshes well with me, which is why the conflict eventually evolved into one of insubordination, where the survivors refused to be peaceful because they had non-illegal gear taken from them. So as a WO I ordered the survivors to submit to a search and confiscation of any useful gear so that the RO can swing by later and pick it up and distribute it to the marines. While I generally shouldn't be doing requisition's work for them, I find that it's better to confiscate everything in one go than let the survivors go with half their gear, then have to deal with them again when the RO complains they won't hand over their cool items.

And I did of course let the survivors keep any cosmetics and common items, stuff like their bags, medibelts, toolbelts, and sheets of metal.

So why should a survivor even bother coming up to the Almayer if all their shit's gonna get taken from them?

If you have a competent MPs/WO/SOs you'll likely be given an ID with access to the medbay if you were a doctor, or (possibly, rules are vague here) engineering if you were an engineer. Or you can go to cryo. Or you can play a hostile survivor next time, who's aware of how the marines are dicks to survivors and take all the stuff that the survivors themselves stole from the colony.

Philby0 · Post by **Philby0** » 28 Jul 2017, 16:41

Aaaah yeah that thing. Too bad I had to go cryo right after I got shot, would've loved to see where this all went.

Yeah I was skeptic about the "directly steal from survivors" and "Can you order subordinates to hand over gear" things.

Now that one thing apop wrote is fair but,
That fucking definition for Theft ? I hadn't even noticed that, thanks for bringing it up. It is true that as written it means that civilians are absolutely not covered from theft by marine law.
And the lawman inside me goes DINGALINGALINGALING WHAT THE FUCK.
Seriously if the RAW is the RAI that means everyone can legally steal from anyone in medbay. I mean it can't be true right ?

I just feel that survivors' gear are there personal possessions, not like the gear issued to those working on the USS Almayer.
Furthermore I wanted to get these survivors their legal gear because one of them was clearly a shitter. He proved it right after that, I mean :
"The CMP took my hypospray so I grabbed military weaponry from the dispensers to try and raid brig, even though there is absolutely no way for me not to get killed", that's just finding an excuse to self antag. There's no RP way to justify that, broke the immersion we had so far.

So yeah, if staff could tell us about that law that'd be great.

Challenger · Post by **Challenger** » 28 Jul 2017, 16:55

It actually went great after that, while I did have to spend a bunch of time explaining to Ordukai what happened, he ended up sending in a CLF ERT with the justification of "we heard how you abused the civilians, we're gonna bust them out of brig!" and of course because they were CLF they got shredded by the aliens before ever coming anywhere close to the brig. In the middle of all this, the CO ordered everyone to the brig and all the marines got wiped honorably protecting the two permabrigged survivors.

With regards to the survivors, I can understand that we shouldn't be robbing survivors blind just because we can, and I'm gonna insist that I tried to be fair which is why I returned their medibelt, bag, etc., but one thing we have to note is that survivors STOLE all this stuff from the colony in the first place, none of them spawned in with it, they all went and broke into security to take that gear anyway, it never belonged to them in the first place. There isn't a real difference between marines coming and looting sec, versus survivors looting it and then marines taking the loot from them.

Swagile · Post by **Swagile** » 28 Jul 2017, 17:33

Tl;dr never get rescued and shoot all marines on first contact, because if you get rescued, your going to have a (boring) bad time on Almayer due to the way survivor and rules on survivors work.

Philby0 · Post by **Philby0** » 28 Jul 2017, 18:00

Swagile wrote:Tl;dr never get rescued and shoot all marines on first contact, because if you get rescued, your going to have a (boring) bad time on Almayer due to the way survivor and rules on survivors work.

We seize the civilians personnal belongings to redistribute them to those who need them...

We have indeed reached Fully automated luxury gay space communism.

Voldirs · Post by **Voldirs** » 28 Jul 2017, 18:02

Swagile wrote:Tl;dr never get rescued and shoot all marines on first contact, because if you get rescued, your going to have a (boring) bad time on Almayer due to the way survivor and rules on survivors work.

Fighting both marines and aliens will make your lifetime really short. But probably extremelly hillarious.
I was doing it another way, before one of infinite rule changes:
1)Be rescued
2)Some RP-talkie-talkie
3)Find a gas mask in firefighter's locker
3)Steal marine's uniform, ID, put on a gas mask, find weapons
4)Deploy on the ground
5)???
6)Die (or be rescued one more time)
But now its invalid because of rules, hurr-durr

Troika · Post by **Troika** » 28 Jul 2017, 22:17

As I noted on the wiki, the job of a survivor is to fight everyone, ruin EVERYTHING.

While your chances of remaining alive and unfacehugged are lower than anyone else's, you can get up to quite a bit of mischief if you survive since you don't have to follow marine law in the slightest (you arn't a marine or a crewmember). Of course this also means the marines can shoot the shit out of you if you start causing trouble.

If the marines bring a tramp bearded lunatic suffering from severe space drugs and alcohol withdrawal up to the ship and he goes crazy and starts suffering space 'Nam flashbacks when no one's supervising him? Oops.

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