The whole MP situation.

[Philby0]

you don't have to follow marine law in the slightest (you arn't a marine or a crewmember).

Actually you do, I ahelped to be sure.
Marine Law applies to everyone onboard, survivors count as civilians. They're Wey Yu colonists after all.

[Swagile]

As I noted on the wiki, the job of a survivor is to fight everyone, ruin EVERYTHING.

While your chances of remaining alive and unfacehugged are lower than anyone else's, you can get up to quite a bit of mischief if you survive since you don't have to follow marine law in the slightest (you arn't a marine or a crewmember). Of course this also means the marines can shoot the shit out of you if you start causing trouble.

If the marines bring a tramp bearded lunatic suffering from severe space drugs and alcohol withdrawal up to the ship and he goes crazy and starts suffering space 'Nam flashbacks when no one's supervising him? Oops.

If you get rescued or go willingly up to the Almayer, you cannot antag at ALL.

[NoahKirchner]

The only non-shitter regular MP player I can think of right now is Xiphos.

I've seen marines executed for insults and MPs arrested for 30 minutes after having a handgun to "make an example".

I don't think MPs understand that the people who they are punishing for something that a new player wouldn't know, or for banter that isn't repeated and overly disrespectful, are actual people. MP law arrest times are too goddamn long, being in jail for 30 minutes is basically a guarantee that the person is going to log off, and MPs putting people in for the max amount of time for every break of marine law to uphold their "wew i'm a strict cop who enforces everything as harshly as possible" meme status are just as bad- if not worse than- people who consistently grief. Since they're using something easily exploitable to ruin people's rounds for little things just to uphold their meme montra.

Yes I get the hypocrisy in my statement.

[Challenger]

I arrested an MP for having a handgun on them for thirty minutes, after I asked them if they even knew Marine Law and they flat out said no.

Generally all the times when I arrest MPs are "to set an example", my character doesn't want people to lose faith in MPs because they violate the same laws that they arrest for. Outside of MPs being arrested I almost never use the max time and generally 90% of the time I use the minimum timer.

[Troika]

Why not make MPs a white list job? That at least should cut down on the shitters.

[NoahKirchner]

I arrested an MP for having a handgun on them for thirty minutes, after I asked them if they even knew Marine Law and they flat out said no.

Generally all the times when I arrest MPs are "to set an example", my character doesn't want people to lose faith in MPs because they violate the same laws that they arrest for. Outside of MPs being arrested I almost never use the max time and generally 90% of the time I use the minimum timer.

The only time the minimum timer shouldn't be used is for second offenses and griefers, 30 minutes for something that could have been solved by "Put down the gun" and maybe an looc link to marine law is fucking absurd and does nothing but make the person want to log off. I know that if I was new to a server, and was then honest with the person who asked me if I knew what I was doing, who then put me in jail for half an hour, I would probably never log back on because that is a ruined round.

[NoahKirchner]

Why not make MPs a white list job? That at least should cut down on the shitters.

More whitelists are not the solution, MPs are necessary. The issue is marine law having absurd recommended times and players who are shitters as MP reveling in people calling them shit so they do it on purpose.

[Challenger]

know that if I was new to a server, and was then honest with the person who asked me if I knew what I was doing, who then put me in jail for half an hour, I would probably never log back on because that is a ruined round.

AS AN MP

They were an MP

if you're the type of idiot to join a role that has server rules that FORCE you to obey a certain lawset and you don't do that, the EASIEST punishment you should get off with is being forced to log off for the round

[NoahKirchner]

AS AN MP

They were an MP

if you're the type of idiot to join a role that has server rules that FORCE you to obey a certain lawset and you don't do that, the EASIEST punishment you should get off with is being forced to log off for the round

No, you shouldn't, because it's a GAME and a difficult to get in to at that. It's not like he joined and shot up the place, or did anything overly terrible, he picked up a gun as an MP. This is like shooting your SL when they ask how to use the new binoculars because they didn't read the wiki beforehand, and this is a server that has mechanics that FORCE you to use items a certain way, and they DON'T do that.

Most servers have far more relaxed security roles, I don't think it's unreasonable to have some players who join MP on the highest populated server on the hub because things like "XO and Doctor" sound too important.

Should he have been jailed? Hell yes, he broke marine law. Should he have been jailed for thirty minutes? No, because he did it once. You shouldn't relax that rules for new players, but brigging anyone for 30 minutes on a first time nonviolent offense is absolutely absurd.

[Challenger]

The minimum you should be doing for any role before you join in with it is read its wiki page, its starting text, and the rules relevant to it. This is what I've done for every new role I've played and what everyone should be doing, I honestly fail to understand how anyone could honestly try to "wing" a role without just fucking things up for themselves and others. So if someone fails to do this, they shouldn't be surprised if there's consequences to it. Especially when all three of the server rules, starting text, and wiki page make it very clear that MPs are supposed to be following the law. If someone can't even get basic gun laws straight for themselves, they absolutely can't be trusted to not fuck up someone else's round when placed in a confusing situation by (not) arresting them for stupid reasons and failing to follow procedure.

I believe by the time I was finished processing that MP, I decided to split their 30 minute sentence into a 15 minute sentence of weapons violation and 15 minute sentence of neglect of duty and demoted them for the above reason that an MP who IC and OOC isn't even aware of marine law, shouldn't be an MP.

I also find it hard to believe anyone would join as an MP (which appears 2/3rds of the way up the job selection list) because it'd be easier than something like a doctor. All other red flags aside, it should be pretty obvious that you probably want to get familiar with the standard roles first before choosing one that polices them. And if someone from another server joins as one because they think CM is just reskinned vanilla SS13 and doesn't bother reading anything beforehand, well, I hope they enjoy their brigging and the 3 hour ban they get from EORG shortly after, because what are the chances they'd read the rules?

[NoahKirchner]

The minimum you should be doing for any role before you join in with it is read its wiki page, its starting text, and the rules relevant to it. This is what I've done for every new role I've played and what everyone should be doing, I honestly fail to understand how anyone could honestly try to "wing" a role without just fucking things up for themselves and others. So if someone fails to do this, they shouldn't be surprised if there's consequences to it. Especially when all three of the server rules, starting text, and wiki page make it very clear that MPs are supposed to be following the law. If someone can't even get basic gun laws straight for themselves, they absolutely can't be trusted to not fuck up someone else's round when placed in a confusing situation by (not) arresting them for stupid reasons and failing to follow procedure.

I believe by the time I was finished processing that MP, I decided to split their 30 minute sentence into a 15 minute sentence of weapons violation and 15 minute sentence of neglect of duty and demoted them for the above reason that an MP who IC and OOC isn't even aware of marine law, shouldn't be an MP.

I also find it hard to believe anyone would join as an MP (which appears 2/3rds of the way up the job selection list) because it'd be easier than something like a doctor. All other red flags aside, it should be pretty obvious that you probably want to get familiar with the standard roles first before choosing one that polices them. And if someone from another server joins as one because they think CM is just reskinned vanilla SS13 and doesn't bother reading anything beforehand, well, I hope they enjoy their brigging and the 3 hour ban they get from EORG shortly after, because what are the chances they'd read the rules?

You are not a mentor nor a mod, and it's not your job to enforce the rules like that.

If you only brigged them for 30 minutes because you thought that they were new and would fuck it up, then you brigged them for the max amount of time because of an OOC ordeal as opposed to the best option for the situation at hand.

If you brig anyone who breaks the minor weapon violation law for 30 minutes on their first offense, then you're a shitter, removing people from the round for no good reason besides "I AM TEH LAHW!"

[Challenger]

The brigging, sentencing, and everything related to it was done entirely IC. Let's take the factors into consideration for why I decided they needed to be brigged for the maximum time on unauthorized weapon instead of minimum time (Minor weapons violation was never in play, they didn't wave the weapon around):

- They have a weapon on them during improper code
- They didn't present any real excuse for why they had one, like "I'm scared for my safety" or "I need to have a weapon as a show of force" (which are both excuses that I've accepted as well-intentioned, and left someone off with a warning for)
- They're an MP and held to a higher standard as they're supposed to be setting an example for others
- They're an MP and blatantly admit to not even knowing what they're supposed to be doing

And again, maxing out unauthorized weapon was a placeholder until I could fit their crimes into separate categories, which I ended up doing when I split the sentence 50/50 between unauthorized weapon and neglect of duty.

If you come across an MP who admits to not knowing how to enforce the law, and they don't explain why they have a gun on them, the first thing you're going to think is "will this guy end up shooting someone over a bullshit arrest", and the second thing you'll think is "how the fuck do I make sure this guy isn't going to do that". Which we accomplished with a demotion and decent sentence on both crimes.

On a tangent, regarding sentencing, I don't personally find it too long. The round's pretty much guaranteed to go on for at least two hours since start, and I've been arrested multiple times from short sentences for minor hooliganism and all that, to being permabrigged as an MP for failing to follow procedure (it actually happened that four MPs got arrested by a 5th when we all realized we fulfilled an execution illegally), and I've never found these sentences unjust. Just alt tab out and do something else, or actually r o l e p l a y to the MPs or over the radio.

[Tornadium]

I arrested an MP for having a handgun on them for thirty minutes, after I asked them if they even knew Marine Law and they flat out said no.

Generally all the times when I arrest MPs are "to set an example", my character doesn't want people to lose faith in MPs because they violate the same laws that they arrest for. Outside of MPs being arrested I almost never use the max time and generally 90% of the time I use the minimum timer.

Why did you arrest an MP for having a side arm which they are fully entitled to carry at all times?

[coroneljones]

Why did you arrest an MP for having a side arm which they are fully entitled to carry at all times?

They are not entitled to a lethal sidearm
During code green, only nonlethal weaponry is authorized

[Tornadium]

Was there a rule change? We've been allowed to carry a side arm for months now as standard. It's the first thing I grab every shift.

[Steelpoint]

The most up to date rules states that MPs, on Code Green, can only carry non-lethal weapons on their person, and they must be holstered at all times sans when employing them in security related functions.

The ship needs to be at Code Blue at which all MP's may carry a pistol sidearm and may have them unholstered at any time.

[Tornadium]

The most up to date rules states that MPs, on Code Green, can only carry non-lethal weapons on their person, and they must be holstered at all times sans when employing them in security related functions.

The ship needs to be at Code Blue at which all MP's may carry a pistol sidearm and may have them unholstered at any time.

Huh, I've been carrying a pistol every round for the last month or so.

Why did we regress from being allowed a side arm to non-lethals only again?

[Philby0]

Why did we regress from being allowed a side arm to non-lethals only again?

Well because code green means no hostile activity onboard. And we have no reason whatsoever to use lethal force unless it's being used on us. Even then, it's usually not needed.

[Zilenan91]

You also have a taser and like SS13-combat it means that if someone shoots you, they have to shoot you quite a few times but you only need to tag them once and then they're done. You can arrest them, get treatment, and toss them in perma easily enough.

[Terminutter]

The only time the minimum timer shouldn't be used is for second offenses and griefers,

Nope. The severity of the crime being charged for is what should determine the sentence passed. Just because something is a first offence, does not mean it should be given the minimum.
Both a legitimate threat to punch someone, and beating them unconscious are considered assault under marine law, and the first should warrant the minimum charge, while the latter would warrant a higher charge.
For repeat offences, there is a charge that exists specifically for that, which is to be used.

Now, I give the minimum sentence 90% of the time, but if a higher one is warranted, I will charge it if needed.

An issue I have with the law is that it fairly broken on certain topics - terrorist collaboration, for example, specifically states "the corporation", where it should state "the USCM". Another funny one is that threatening to assault someone counts as an assault charge, but threatening to kill someone is not actually covered under any law. (ok, charge it as assault, but assault actually specifically states "without intent to kill")

That said, 95% of players only check marine law when they are arrested, and a majority of MPs only check it when charging, and are actually ignorant of most of it, which is infuriating.

[Tornadium]

You also have a taser and like SS13-combat it means that if someone shoots you, they have to shoot you quite a few times but you only need to tag them once and then they're done. You can arrest them, get treatment, and toss them in perma easily enough.

That's a very OOC reasoning for it, I was talking more from an IC Perspective.

[Zilenan91]

Not really, you know what these guns are going to do IC and OOC, and being shot is less immediately incapacitating than being tased so the MP has the advantage in a fight against a marine.

[Philby0]

Nope. The severity of the crime being charged for is what should determine the sentence passed. Just because something is a first offence, does not mean it should be given the minimum.
Both a legitimate threat to punch someone, and beating them unconscious are considered assault under marine law, and the first should warrant the minimum charge, while the latter would warrant a higher charge.
For repeat offences, there is a charge that exists specifically for that, which is to be used.

Now, I give the minimum sentence 90% of the time, but if a higher one is warranted, I will charge it if needed.

An issue I have with the law is that it fairly broken on certain topics - terrorist collaboration, for example, specifically states "the corporation", where it should state "the USCM". Another funny one is that threatening to assault someone counts as an assault charge, but threatening to kill someone is not actually covered under any law. (ok, charge it as assault, but assault actually specifically states "without intent to kill")

That said, 95% of players only check marine law when they are arrested, and a majority of MPs only check it when charging, and are actually ignorant of most of it, which is infuriating.

All of this. All perfectly true.

[NoahKirchner]

Nope. The severity of the crime being charged for is what should determine the sentence passed. Just because something is a first offence, does not mean it should be given the minimum.
Both a legitimate threat to punch someone, and beating them unconscious are considered assault under marine law, and the first should warrant the minimum charge, while the latter would warrant a higher charge.
For repeat offences, there is a charge that exists specifically for that, which is to be used.

Now, I give the minimum sentence 90% of the time, but if a higher one is warranted, I will charge it if needed.

An issue I have with the law is that it fairly broken on certain topics - terrorist collaboration, for example, specifically states "the corporation", where it should state "the USCM". Another funny one is that threatening to assault someone counts as an assault charge, but threatening to kill someone is not actually covered under any law. (ok, charge it as assault, but assault actually specifically states "without intent to kill")

That said, 95% of players only check marine law when they are arrested, and a majority of MPs only check it when charging, and are actually ignorant of most of it, which is infuriating.

Well yes, if someone is being a dick and punching people to unconcious and what-not then sure, your mileage may vary, but the maximum sentences are absurd for most cases that come in.

[Philby0]

the maximum sentences are absurd for most cases that come in.

That's the definition of a maximum sentence, what's your point ?