A discussion on No Retreat

[MedicInDisquise]

Anything to stop a xeno victory.

I wish more marines could read "Embrace the Suck" more. It's been a bit since it was last posted, but it still rings true. Sadly, it's an inevitably that shit like this will happen, and it's hard to blame them.

Colonial Marines' dev team and people like Reno mainly want the game to have a story. To be a ROLE PLAYING game, not TDM. This is why aliens have such a high win rate. This is why commanders like Reno want to use no-retreats as a fun time to RP, to have the moment of "last stand" that is so fun to see and even play.

Then we have the majority of the playerbase, who enjoy winning and dread the xeno win. The majority of the playerbase is Marine, or at least Human, because of the low learning curve to be a marine. (Much like in real life, you take a gun and you point it at enemies. SS13 is also most suited to human gameplay in the first place.) They don't LIKE losing. They don't like embracing the suck and having a ROLE to play, they want to actually win. This kind of thing is just evident of a larger divide in the community.

Personally though, I do love last stands. I love being a civilian pushed to the limit, having to grab a shotgun and blindly shoot people and things. I love being a desperate marine who's nursing two broken arms and seeing his comrades get picked off around them. I love having to retreat to the Almayer, seeing about 3/4th of the marines dead, and I love seeing the inevitably low bodies who manage to evacuate.

But some people want to win, and I don't really blame them.

[Kesserline]

The more roleplay you want, the more restrictions you have to accept, especially on the background and lore.

Aliens lore has no links with WW1, WW2 or WH40K.

If you are talking about RP, then, you shouldn't take into an example of MisRP in my opinion. "No-retreats" = MisRP when the situation is hopeless and you want a last stand while not necessary. Marines =/= Imperial Guards =/= Red Army =/= Verdun's battles : because it's not the same scale.

[MedicInDisquise]

Yeah, Aliens lore isn't related to WW1, WW2, or WH40k but it's still a military setting. Last stands aren't restricted to just those three backgrounds and lores. It's not as if Aliens lore is friendly to the marines anyways.

Last stands are fun and they have their place. You don't need to win every situation, and command isn't going to chose the best and most optimal decisions every round. They're human too, and it all depends on what's fun. Ofc, what's fun is subjective.

[Youbar]

Colonial Marines' dev team and people like Reno mainly want the game to have a story. To be a ROLE PLAYING game, not TDM. This is why aliens have such a high win rate.

Even from a roleplaying perspective, there is no way an officer, especially a commander, trained in post-modern warfare, would be telling his men to "hold the line". Deep defence strategies have dominated doctrines all across the world, ever since WW1 came to a close. It's gross negligence disguised by the poor excuse of attempting to up the 'cool factor' of the round. I'd much rather not find myself cut off from safety, supplies, and medical aid, as Xenoes quite literally butcher everybody in the FOB, while some guy sits up at the Sulaco, two steps from the dropship controls, patting himself on the back for how much better he's made the round for everyone.

[Heckenshutze]

Doesn't matter how much RP, mechanics and 'perfect unbalance' you put in a game, bottom line, it's still a game and you either win or lose a game. All you can do as a good player is to teach with the example that winning doesn't do shit in CM, but you can't blame nobody for being addicted to win. We need those players to keep the challenge

[Jagdges]

High loss rates come down to two things: The Xenos have a far, far more lenient playstyle. They can get away with tactics they could only dream of in the movies. In Aliens alone, dozens upon dozens were killed by, what? Four people and a sentry gun? Unlike our balancing would suggest, their hides aren't bulletproof. Far from it.

This is fine though. It's OK for them to be a bit tougher than usual. SS13 is clunky and there needs to be room for error. But they have a ridiculous margin for error if you ask me. One alien can equal ten Marines combat wise in the right situation, and they're almost always equivalent to 3 or 4. This is before force multipliers like the screeches come in. IMO, if our weapons hurt them a bit more, it wouldn't be a bad thing. After all, they get to respawn.

Second, high loss rates come down because unlike officers and NCOs in real life, there's no guarantee that any of our cadre are educated in any degree of strategy that goes past "Defend Hydroponics" on LV or "Defend courtyard" on Big Red without taking into consideration that the aaaayyyyliens can easily flank from Medbay gaining a foothold in a building complex shared with Hydro, divided by a chokepoint which the aliens can manipulate better than the Marines because of their force multipliers and use to leverage an attack through to Hydro. The rough Marine equivalent being a flank consisting of at least half a dozen troops, followed up by more troops from Hydro, or just an OB, which are difficult to coordinate, even if they're effective.

Or that if the aliens control literally the entire map on Big Red except for the courtyard, the Marines are now committing to the tactical equivalent of putting all their eggs in one basket. We just build a giant FOB on LZ1 and hope the aliens all die before all the barricades break.

And I hate to say it, but it's honestly true. Commanders are normally inept past defending the cool point without thinking why that point is important to hold. Occasionally we get some strategy going on, and it shows when that happens. Anytime I see a commander assigning troops to the rear guard for instance it's a good day. Normally commanders are satisfied to just execute mutineers and declare what will happen to anyone who questions his authority without taking into consideration why people may be questioning his authority in the first place.

The dick stroking can get really real.

Ultimately, it's a relative thing. Some people like losing, for whatever reason, and most people like winning. But because of our poor communication combined with fairly relentless gameplay standards, Marines will be destined to lose if only because the skill floor is legitimately higher than the aliens.

[taketheshot56]

Ultimately, it's a relative thing. Some people like losing, for whatever reason, and most people like winning. But because of our poor communication combined with fairly relentless gameplay standards, Marines will be destined to lose if only because the skill floor is legitimately higher than the aliens.

I like alot of the points you bring up. However strategy is extremely hard. For xenos strategy is "Charge during screech." And all the aliens do that because they are required to. With the marines a commander wishing to execute a cool maneuver must have a

1.Capable SO or devote the time himself
2. A capable squad leader who listens to orders
3. Marines that charge when told.

This is where things start breaking down. Marines have no OOC requirement to follow orders, aside from a few exceptions. 9 times out of 10 I will see maybe one or two t3s defending against 20 marines and the marines will not charge. Despite being ordered to they are like stubborn mules amd move two feet before retreating. I've watched squads while ghosting retreat from an alien and give away the momentum of an attack. The problem stems from not wanting to die. Nobody wants to die in this game, everyone wants to live till round end. Observing this there are times where marines could easily win by charging amd taking one or two losses. But in the end fallback to FOB of their own accord amd get whittled down to nothing. A commander can use brilliant tactics and I agree. When they work they work like a charm. The problem is getting the marines to follow that tactic and not go lemming mode retreat upon the first loss.

[Bronimin]

I'm sure that you know this, but just to be sure.

Xenos were weaker at first

The intended playstyle was for dead marines to join as xeno after dying

Xenos got buffed because no marines wanted to play xeno and would just observe the game or quit after dying.

1 xeno must equal 10 marines because that is the ratio of players a lot of the time.

[NGGJamie]

I wish more marines could read "Embrace the Suck" more. It's been a bit since it was last posted, but it still rings true. Sadly, it's an inevitably that shit like this will happen, and it's hard to blame them.

Colonial Marines' dev team and people like Reno mainly want the game to have a story. To be a ROLE PLAYING game, not TDM. This is why aliens have such a high win rate. This is why commanders like Reno want to use no-retreats as a fun time to RP, to have the moment of "last stand" that is so fun to see and even play.

Then we have the majority of the playerbase, who enjoy winning and dread the xeno win. The majority of the playerbase is Marine, or at least Human, because of the low learning curve to be a marine. (Much like in real life, you take a gun and you point it at enemies. SS13 is also most suited to human gameplay in the first place.) They don't LIKE losing. They don't like embracing the suck and having a ROLE to play, they want to actually win. This kind of thing is just evident of a larger divide in the community.

Personally though, I do love last stands. I love being a civilian pushed to the limit, having to grab a shotgun and blindly shoot people and things. I love being a desperate marine who's nursing two broken arms and seeing his comrades get picked off around them. I love having to retreat to the Almayer, seeing about 3/4th of the marines dead, and I love seeing the inevitably low bodies who manage to evacuate.

But some people want to win, and I don't really blame them.

Off topic: You just reminded me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXlmjL3JU4M

But seriously, this is a game about the story that happens between the marines waking up, and either seeing a crushing defeat to a foe that outclasses them in many ways or an outstanding victory worthy of celebration. If not retreating and dying is a part of that story then so be it, have fun posing your last stand and dying among all of the carnage.

[SolarMacharius]

I like alot of the points you bring up. However strategy is extremely hard. For xenos strategy is "Charge during screech." And all the aliens do that because they are required to. With the marines a commander wishing to execute a cool maneuver must have a

1.Capable SO or devote the time himself
2. A capable squad leader who listens to orders
3. Marines that charge when told.

This is where things start breaking down. Marines have no OOC requirement to follow orders, aside from a few exceptions. 9 times out of 10 I will see maybe one or two t3s defending against 20 marines and the marines will not charge. Despite being ordered to they are like stubborn mules amd move two feet before retreating. I've watched squads while ghosting retreat from an alien and give away the momentum of an attack. The problem stems from not wanting to die. Nobody wants to die in this game, everyone wants to live till round end. Observing this there are times where marines could easily win by charging amd taking one or two losses. But in the end fallback to FOB of their own accord amd get whittled down to nothing. A commander can use brilliant tactics and I agree. When they work they work like a charm. The problem is getting the marines to follow that tactic and not go lemming mode retreat upon the first loss.

This is the real crux of the situation. It's hard to pull off tactical withdrawals and other strategies because the amount of coordination is almost impossible. Like I said earlier, if the marines lose an area on the map, 9 times out of 10 the area stays lost for the rest of the round. No counterattacks, no back and forth, that area is xeno territory for the rest of the game unless the aliens mess up and die. Plus if even one part of the marine command chain is mediocre or incompetent (be it the CO/XO, SO's, SL's, Req what ever) the entire marine force basically falls apart.

You are also right regarding the fear of death and pushing. Simply put if you die as a marine, that is it. You have to wait until the ship is boarded way later into the round and pray the distress beacon even gets activated, and then pray you get selected for ERT. I mean you could spawn as an alien, but most of the time you just get stuck as a young T1, and most people don't want to re spawn to kill the marines. The other fear aspect is the fear of failure. Yeah maybe there is just one isolated alien in a building, but even wounded a t3 can still do immense damage, especially when you factor in the inevitable FF. Plus if the marines charge and get hit by either a lucky boiler shot or a screech, you can kiss your push goodbye. So you have to gamble that the queen isn't nearby and that a boiler isn't lining up a shot already and that you have correctly guessed how many aliens there are.

And if you guess wrong you and your entire squad are forfeit and you get to spend the next forty minutes observing.

[XenocidalEnragement]

Better to die standing than to retreat and suffer humility.

[Skimmy2]

I would like to point out, due to confusion and loudness of combat, its extremely difficult to maneuver your squads while they are engaged then if they are simply in the rear.
You can have the entire squad be competent, but only half of them hearing the order to charge, or to pull back and flank.

[Jagdges]

I'm sure that you know this, but just to be sure.

Xenos were weaker at first

The intended playstyle was for dead marines to join as xeno after dying

Xenos got buffed because no marines wanted to play xeno and would just observe the game or quit after dying.

1 xeno must equal 10 marines because that is the ratio of players a lot of the time.

They didn't get respawn back then either. I still stand by my request for aliens to be *slightly* weaker. Not like in Aliens, because I understand why, but enough to where they feel it when they get hurt.

[Renomaki]

Better to die standing than to retreat and suffer humility.

This is kinda how I prefer to play, both as a marine and an officer.

There is no greater shame for a CO than to be steamrolled and humiliated. I'd rather fight as hard as I can and give the xenos a fight worth fighting than lay down and die.

I always make it a personal goal that, if I cannot defeat my enemy, then I'd make sure that their victory is hard earned. If I can hold the colony on LV-624 till 14:00 (this is before xenos offically take the LZ and prepare boarding), then that is a bit of an accomplishment. 15:00, even moreso.

After all, sometimes the greatest victory on CM is not total victory, but knowing that you provided a challenge to the xenos instead of simply rolling over. I always am sure to compliment my troops after a match if we manage to hold out for a good while.

That, and the thrill and intensity (and uncertainly) of last stands is why I do what I do. I will fight, and fight hard I will.

[Blade2000Br]

There is no greater shame for a CO than to be steamrolled and humiliated. I'd rather fight as hard as I can and give the xenos a fight worth fighting than lay down and die.

I always make it a personal goal that, if I cannot defeat my enemy, then I'd make sure that their victory is hard earned. If I can hold the colony on LV-624 till 14:00 (this is before xenos offically take the LZ and prepare boarding), then that is a bit of an accomplishment. 15:00, even moreso.

After all, sometimes the greatest victory on CM is not total victory, but knowing that you provided a challenge to the xenos instead of simply rolling over. I always am sure to compliment my troops after a match if we manage to hold out for a good while.

Though, xeno mains are toxic as hell and they mock and call you shit for loosing to then.

I saw that xeno mains are extremely toxic when they loose, and straight shitters when they win.

[Heckenshutze]

Though, xeno mains are toxic as hell and they mock and call you shit for loosing to then.

I saw that xeno mains are extremely toxic when they loose, and straight shitters when they win.

Some xeno players are just cancer. Also hivermind was the maximum cancer until we started to enforce less meme shit in there.

P.S most xeno players don't give a shit if marines win or lose, most of the times they yell at their Queen for their defeat.

[Skimmy2]

Pretty sure blaming the Queen is caring about whether or not marines win or lose, brah.

[Heckenshutze]

Pretty sure blaming the Queen is caring about whether or not marines win or lose, brah.

Not really. For xeno players marines are in general, bad shooters and bad tacticians.. if they lose they blame their Queen because she couldn't guide the hive properly. Bad queens make xenos lose. There are pretty rare exceptions where the Queen was good and marines still won a major victory.