A discussion on No Retreat

[Renomaki]

As many of you know, marine victories are few and far between. This is because of the "unbalanced" nature of the game, with a platoon/battalion of marines being made to face off against the ultimate bio-weapon, an unstoppable force that not even YAUTJA can defeat, at least not easily. As one can expect, time and time again the xenos break the fighting spirits of marines and cause them to scatter and flee for their lives, more than happy to leave everything behind (including fellow marines!) just so they can live to fight again later in the round, which as we all know is very VERY soon.

Most of the time, command is willing to allow a full scale retreat of his forces if he really believes his men are unable to hold position, even if their defensive positions had barely saw battle and there were between 20-30 marines manning the defenses. However, sometimes you have the sort of commander (such as myself) who refuses to give up in the face of adversity, no matter how bad things are getting, which results in the classic line: "No retreat, no surrender!"

Keep in mind, this discussion is based on the idea of FULL SCALE retreats. Tactical retreats are a different matter, one that any smart commander would understand when faced with a difficult situation. Full Scale Retreats, however, are a lot more debatable, and sometimes completely unneeded.

The idea behind a No Retreat order is push marines to the LIMIT in order to hold a vital position (normally LZ1). Provided the engineers did a good job, they should normally have plenty of defenses from which to hold the line with, and provided you have a good handful of men still left to hold the position, forcing them to stand their ground and fight bravely can at times be a valuable tactic while you scramble reinforcements together to deploy to the surface and hopefully turn the tide of battle.

After all, as they say, it is better to die facing the enemy then it is to expose your back to them, and many times during these last stands marines were able to accomplish some great feats before they all perish. There is also the whole fun of a "last stand" in general, the fear and excitement as you fight your final battle, expending every last bit of energy [and ammo] you have to survive as long as you can until either reinforcements or the embrace of death arrives. At least, I kinda enjoy it...

But in most cases, marines grow furious at the idea of being told to stand and fight to the last, it being very common for them to rush into the dropship the first chance they get and refusing to fight any further. Of course, this is understandable, since marine morale is a big factor in combat. Marines who lose all hope are more likely to run away compared to those who still have faith, or at least are willing to die for the USCM to get the job done. Which brings me to this:

What are your opinions on No Retreat orders? Can such an order turn the tides of battle, or is it just a pointless effort? How do you feel when your commander gives such an order? Would you give such an order if you felt it was needed? How willing are you to fight till your last breath on the ground, compared to on the ship?

[Mook476]

Enact order .227 not one step back comrades!. Not one step back you coward! back to the frontlines! back!.

[Youbar]

If the situation on the ground is hopeless, there's no real reason to stay there. You'll only end up wasting resources, such as turrets, ammo, manpower, leadership, and specialists, all of which would be far more valuable on the Sulaco, and once reorganised, could easily be used to retake the positions you've lost. Ordering a "no retreat" is something ripped straight out of WW1, when men fought to hold static positions, and the results of that strategical mindset are obvious. Gameplay in Colonial Marines takes a very dynamic approach, and there's nothing at all dynamic about holding a fixed position, especially when it's a sheer waste of materiel.

[ImHereToHelp]

When the marines are losing it means that most, if not all of them are stuck in one centralized area (typically the LZ FOB) and the xenos have them completely surrounded and have every chokepoint set up to murder any marines. The xenos will then start either cycle-screeching (queen goes in, other xenos do damage or nab marines into huggers) or poking them with boilers or crusher charges until the marines have no more man-power to hold off xenos.

At this point, the marines have already lost. The only way you can come back from this is if you get a really nice OB that opens up the map (marines are favored in open fields) and forces a few xenos or a CAS that frags a few key xeno castes. There is an exception for Big Red LZ1 FOB, due to how open it is compared to the others (compare it to Nexus or Hangar).

Holding a point with a "no-retreat" mentality is just begging to make the Almayer defense an impossibility and massive xeno stomp and it really isn't so much as a heroic stand but an unfulfilling "get-prae-spit-twice-and-dont-get-healed-because-the-medic-has-to-defib-5-other-marines" situation and the marines just anti-climatically lose.

If I was a CO, I'd look for any signs of marines being stuck in an FOB and being regularly boiler'd or the queen cycle-screeching being effective. With that knowledge, then I'd call a full retreat. The marines are just gonna die anyways, there is no faint hope of a comeback at that stage. Might as well have something fun to do on the Almayer.

[Jaketeaking]

Sulaco

Almayer.

On a serious note, nothing ticks me off more than when there are manned positions that havent even been attacked, in crucial locations, such as nexus (LV), or the spaceport (Big Red). Some CO's i agree evac way too early, often with around 70 marines, thats marines mind, not including non combat staff, still alive. you account for the maybe 30% wounded in that, its disgraceful. On the other hand, some CO's refuse to allow even the slightest evac, and attempt to have marines that travel up to the ship arrested.

[TheMusician321]

if there's enough marines, it could work with a charge, wait for the queen to screech, have the backlines push while the front recovers, then they both start pushing.

[Marcus Jackson]

I'm sorry, but I can't tell you how many times I've been told as an SL to hold a pointless/undefendable position or reinforce another squad, despite the fact that I've got 1 arm, my Smartgunner is in pieces, my Spec is up on the ship getting a new spine, my engineers are at FOB (because command doesn't know how to assign squads to duties correctly, and thus I have to send my engineers there), and my single medic is busy healing my last 3 PFCs, who are all in need of surgery.

There is a difference between giving up at the first sign of trouble (which happens not nearly as often as you are making it out to be), and actually calling a legitimate retreat, is the situation they are in.

1: If all squads have most of their men, and most are in fighting order, retreat is not needed and should be punished if done so, no IFs, ANDs, or BUTs about it.

2: But if the situation is as I've described in my opening example, then as Overwatch, XO, or CO, you are required to at least have the brain power to realize: "Oh, maybe this is a fight that requires a new angle of approach, considering these things don't seem to die very easily, but tear through us like paper."

Just last night Xenos got a Noob-Queen, and we thought we were totally done for, but for about an hour the Marines kept throwing themselves into us and getting viciously slaughtered... I never saw much retreating, and even the medics didn't personally evac as many as I would have expected, so because of that, what should have been an even and tactical fight that went on for hours and was incredibly epic/tense for both sides became... an almost unfortunate slog through already half dead Marines who didn't get the order to retreat like they should have awhile ago.

This mentality/behavior/tactic of Nazi-esqe brutality on soldiers who are blatantly losing, and ordering them to zerg-rush the enemy anyway (despite that being a bad idea) is NOT GOOD. I don't why you seem to think it is, but its not. Marines are naturally deficient compared to xenos, and thus they must think tactically in order to win, but this doesn't even remotely happen when the CO says: "Retreat and I'll shoot you in the face bitches. LOL! #fuckyourworthlesslife #fuckrealeffort"

[Rustarus]

I saw one time as CO, and I think one time as a marine, we ordered no retreat. To the point, that we were legit defending the Nexus, and we eventually fucking killed the queen and ended up gaining more ground. Pretty sure we lost in the end though. All in all, it's a gamble. If the situation is that the xenos are pushing so hard that we would not be able to defend any longer, THAT is when I would order a retreat

[Snypehunter007]

Though I haven't played CDR often, as an Observer, I imagine why people find it frustrating is because there is no true neutral.

If you pull one or two squads out, it dooms the rest of the squads, so the CDR is forced to do one of two options.

Option one, you order no retreat you gamble your entire force and marines often rebel against this.

Option two, you pull marines out early without giving too much of a fight, increasing your chances of a Almayer Defense loss.

Unfortunately, with the way the game is, I don't see other alternatives, (other than pulling marines out when they are a bit bloodied).

[Bronimin]

Ordering retreat with only 30% of the marine force dead is disgraceful? What is disgraceful is the waste of life of holding when you can full retreat and soften the target with orbital artillery once all of the friendlies are clear.

[taketheshot56]

From what ive gathered one of two situations happens, the nexus is steamrolled and the marines actually being torn to shreds only to have the CO say "No retreat!" But the more common factor and usual culprit is when one squad will be attacked heavily, not wishing to die for whatever reason, a marine will screech that "There is not hope!" "LZ IS FALLING!" and so begins the domino effect, even if they cant see it, even if they know it is false, marines begin this chain of screaming about how they are all about to die and they need to retreat. In reality only one squad has taken casualties and now the marines are abandoning their posts enmasse. Even today I saw, 70 combat capable marines, retreat from 10 xenos. It is due to this domino effect that leads to massive early retreats, that combined with another problem being rouge SOs, something im going to touch on in another thread, i watched an SO gun down the XO today for not calling retreat. Its a culmination of problems that begins with lack of communication, that is what causes mass retreats.

[Steelpoint]

Don't forget its hard for Marine command to guage the real situation on the ground.

Standards screaming they are being overrun is not good intel, so you have to rely on SLs and the Pilots which can also be iffy.

Its just a hard call and its a toss up if its the right choice.

[Reuben Owen]

the retreating off the planet doesn't bother me at least I can understand it
although technically, there are situations where every kind of xeno has individually died from attacking points like lz1 while surrounding it with others nearby, so it should be possible to kill them all (in theory)

what bothers me is when you see half the marines going for droppods trying to escape and the other half are holding SD or wherever
they'd be able to hold out that extra bit longer if those dudes hung around

[HR171]

It generally depends on the situation but in many cases a full evac is issued too early(or at least thats what i think)...That said it is even more annoying when no evacs are allowed by CO/XO as this is sometimes a tactical necessity(for example when i played a round and only 2 alphas were alive or not captured so couldn't hold their position and command refused to let me Evac them).

When it comes to a 'stand your ground No retreat' Situation you should make sure that the drop-ships do not deploy. I quote "Throw your soldiers into positions from whence they cant escape and they will prefer death to flight[Retreat/running away]" Sun Tzu (from the Art of War), this means if you make it so marines cant retreat they will fight as hard as possible, so tell marines that the DS will not come down until they have defended off all the attackers and the marines will fight harder than they would if they know that they can run away.

[AlanDemarest]

I find it extremely annoying when a CO/XO won't call a retreat, as an SO I'm watching the battle through the marine cameras, my squad is torn to pieces, SL is long dead, spec captured, smartgunner dead, like 20% combat capability.

That's when I leave CIC and start looking for people to bring for a mutiny.

[Renomaki]

Well, from what I see, a lot of people seem to think that not retreating is uncool and bad, and even a waste of resources. Moreso, people would rather fight the xenos on the ship than on the ground.

Let me give my opinion on all this, though...

First off, you have to remember that, unlike in real life, the marines can't quite leave the orbit of the planet they are doing a mission on. In real life, it would make sense for a commander to pull is troops out if he were to come up against a force that he lacks the equipment to f- Oh wait, we have General Custer, who would have survived if he bothered to bring Gatling Guns. Regardless, you have no where to go once you retreat off the planet, so if you went and abandoned a fully built FoB with 50 men, all you could do from there is sit and wait for the xenos to attack (or attempt to go back down via LZ2, which doesn't always work due to how little time you often have to REACH LZ1 before they lift off).

And speaking of abandoned bases, this is something that, back in my newb days, I seen happened a lot. You'd have engineers toil and sweat themselves soaked building the best FoBs they can, some of them putting a lot of love and effort into it, only to be told "nah, we not gonna use it, lets fuck off back to the ship where building defenses is pointless due to the RNG nature of crashing ships". That SUCKS, because now you can't even test your design to see how long it would hold off the xenos, let alone enjoy a good last stand. I LOVE last stands, they get the Adrenalin flowin and it tests both your defenses and your own survival skills as you hold off horde, praying for backup to arrive, or at the very least attempt to kill as many as you can before you breathe your last breath (oh, the memories I have of such moments). It is one of the reasons why I tend to order my marines to hold position, because I want to see how long the FoB my engineers built lasts. If it does really well, we could even turn the round around, which HAS happens every now and then!

There is also the issue of marines often being quick to give up. I know that ICly, not everyone is some courageous, loyal infantrymen that would give his life for the USCM, but sometimes people tend to be quick to panic and run away without even trying. Xenos FEED on FEAR, they want you to turn your back to them so they can mow you down as you flee. I'm not saying that everyone has to be Rambo either, since if anything, that causes the very panic that ensues afterwards (eg: groups of 2 marines chasing after xenos and dying, NCOs too busy shooting to call in supplies when needed, and even marine tunnel vision causing them to focus too heavily on one front and ignore their flanks, making it easier to surround them and cause said panic).

The moment marines panic, it creates a domino effect, causing a ripple of doubt throughout the chain of command, to the point that the CO himself might panic and give up the fight in the belief that his forces were utterly crushed, when really they just need to fall back to a nearby position to regroup and await supplies and backup. Despite what Stalin would say, It is better to give up a bit of ground and keep up the fight then it is to give up the fight entirely.

Which brings me to question why marines are more willing to fight on the ship then on the ground. Back in the old days, I could understand why, since back then the ship would ALWAYS land in the hanger, meaning it was easy to meta the defenses and slaughter the xenos in the hanger (although this rarely happened as is). But nowadays, it is random as to where it'll land, meaning setting up defenses in preparation for boarders is difficult and a waste of resources (unless you build in the Self Destruct room, which in reality is a metal coffin most of the time unless you are really lucky). One also has to remember that marines work better in open spaces than tight hallways, while certain xenos like Crushers, Ravagers and Boilers tend to unleash untold suffering to those in tight spaces (all too often have I seen groups of marines get ripped apart by a single T3 alien, simply due to be in a tight space where only one marine can shoot at a time). I could go on and on, but the ship is very often unfavorable to marines, and if everyone just rushes to set up a defense at SD, all that you are doing is allowing the aliens an easy foothold in your own ship. You either rush the ship's crash-site and hope for the best, or accept that you are all going to die and hope that the aliens don't have a boiler.

Many will disagree with me, and I guess that is something I'll have to accept. But this is just how I am in a position of leadership. I don't like to give up as quickly as others do, and I put a lot of faith in my marines. Hell, I burn myself out very often playing CO because of how hard I try to lead them to either victory or a [positive] memorable defeat. After all, just rolling over and dying is not my cup of tea.

[Marcus Jackson]

► Show Spoiler

Well, from what I see, a lot of people seem to think that not retreating is uncool and bad, and even a waste of resources. Moreso, people would rather fight the xenos on the ship than on the ground.

Let me give my opinion on all this, though...

First off, you have to remember that, unlike in real life, the marines can't quite leave the orbit of the planet they are doing a mission on. In real life, it would make sense for a commander to pull is troops out if he were to come up against a force that he lacks the equipment to f- Oh wait, we have General Custer, who would have survived if he bothered to bring Gatling Guns. Regardless, you have no where to go once you retreat off the planet, so if you went and abandoned a fully built FoB with 50 men, all you could do from there is sit and wait for the xenos to attack (or attempt to go back down via LZ2, which doesn't always work due to how little time you often have to REACH LZ1 before they lift off).

And speaking of abandoned bases, this is something that, back in my newb days, I seen happened a lot. You'd have engineers toil and sweat themselves soaked building the best FoBs they can, some of them putting a lot of love and effort into it, only to be told "nah, we not gonna use it, lets fuck off back to the ship where building defenses is pointless due to the RNG nature of crashing ships". That SUCKS, because now you can't even test your design to see how long it would hold off the xenos, let alone enjoy a good last stand. I LOVE last stands, they get the Adrenalin flowin and it tests both your defenses and your own survival skills as you hold off horde, praying for backup to arrive, or at the very least attempt to kill as many as you can before you breathe your last breath (oh, the memories I have of such moments). It is one of the reasons why I tend to order my marines to hold position, because I want to see how long the FoB my engineers built lasts. If it does really well, we could even turn the round around, which HAS happens every now and then!

There is also the issue of marines often being quick to give up. I know that ICly, not everyone is some courageous, loyal infantrymen that would give his life for the USCM, but sometimes people tend to be quick to panic and run away without even trying. Xenos FEED on FEAR, they want you to turn your back to them so they can mow you down as you flee. I'm not saying that everyone has to be Rambo either, since if anything, that causes the very panic that ensues afterwards (eg: groups of 2 marines chasing after xenos and dying, NCOs too busy shooting to call in supplies when needed, and even marine tunnel vision causing them to focus too heavily on one front and ignore their flanks, making it easier to surround them and cause said panic).

The moment marines panic, it creates a domino effect, causing a ripple of doubt throughout the chain of command, to the point that the CO himself might panic and give up the fight in the belief that his forces were utterly crushed, when really they just need to fall back to a nearby position to regroup and await supplies and backup. Despite what Stalin would say, It is better to give up a bit of ground and keep up the fight then it is to give up the fight entirely.

Which brings me to question why marines are more willing to fight on the ship then on the ground. Back in the old days, I could understand why, since back then the ship would ALWAYS land in the hanger, meaning it was easy to meta the defenses and slaughter the xenos in the hanger (although this rarely happened as is). But nowadays, it is random as to where it'll land, meaning setting up defenses in preparation for boarders is difficult and a waste of resources (unless you build in the Self Destruct room, which in reality is a metal coffin most of the time unless you are really lucky). One also has to remember that marines work better in open spaces than tight hallways, while certain xenos like Crushers, Ravagers and Boilers tend to unleash untold suffering to those in tight spaces (all too often have I seen groups of marines get ripped apart by a single T3 alien, simply due to be in a tight space where only one marine can shoot at a time). I could go on and on, but the ship is very often unfavorable to marines, and if everyone just rushes to set up a defense at SD, all that you are doing is allowing the aliens an easy foothold in your own ship. You either rush the ship's crash-site and hope for the best, or accept that you are all going to die and hope that the aliens don't have a boiler.

Many will disagree with me, and I guess that is something I'll have to accept. But this is just how I am in a position of leadership. I don't like to give up as quickly as others do, and I put a lot of faith in my marines. Hell, I burn myself out very often playing CO because of how hard I try to lead them to either victory or a [positive] memorable defeat. After all, just rolling over and dying is not my cup of tea.

Dude, you are missing the entire point of the argument. It's not that Marines are cowards, since most of them are too stupid to get out of dodge when they have the chance, and it's not about having a stupid preference for combat on the ship.

It's about LOSING. If you are losing, and losing badly, anyone with a brain-cell can tell you it's better to retreat/regroup/rearm and prepare for a counter attack than to continue the action of defense... especially when you blatantly can't win that type of battle.

As a commanding officer you need to be able to recognize when something isn't working, and quickly change your strategy to maximize your chances for victory. By simply saying: "No retreat, you either win or you die, but we aren't sending down the DS." this makes your marines less inclined to actually put in the effort to win, and also builds resentment towards you and the rest of the command staff for not actually listening to what is going on (especially now that all helmets have a camera) and trying to help them fix their situation.

Believe me, as an SL I've been really fucking hard on balds that either abandon their posts to hit the front-line, or retreat from combat despite being in decent health and having full ammo (usually with me putting a shotgun slug to their leg), since all they are doing is just making things worse on everyone... but you have to also be able to see the other side of the spectrum.

Retreats are sometimes necessary, retreats are sometimes useful, retreats always have a purpose... deal with it.

[Skimmy2]

Remember that we dont actually know that the xenos could ever threaten the Almayer, its entirely feasible to pull the entire marine force after only 10 KIA.

Retreating sadly is done in a "load everyone up at once" and not by squad like it would more realistically be done, so long as Command keeps the most healthiest squad to hold the line and be the last ones out, the evac will go well.

[WinterClould]

Remember that we dont actually know that the xenos could ever threaten the Almayer, its entirely feasible to pull the entire marine force after only 10 KIA.

Retreating sadly is done in a "load everyone up at once" and not by squad like it would more realistically be done, so long as Command keeps the most healthiest squad to hold the line and be the last ones out, the evac will go well.

That's one I haven't thought about trying, Pull one squad back to the ship at time, that's pretty smart and could possibly help out quite a bit with the typical chaotic evac we usually get.

[Youbar]

Three things.

First off, you have to remember that, unlike in real life, the marines can't quite leave the orbit of the planet they are doing a mission on. In real life, it would make sense for a commander to pull is troops out if he were to come up against a force that he lacks the equipment to f-

Firstly, the scale of the round is far too small to incorporate space travel. If the commander orders an absolute retreat, then yes, the operation is over. If the gamemode actually simulated beyond the point of retreat, deorbiting would be a very possible reality. Just because it isn't within the scope of the round doesn't mean it's not a logical action.

I don't like to give up as quickly as others do

Secondly, we don't give up. We take the best course of action. A fight to the last man has never worked in the history of warfare. It wouldn't have worked at Dunkirk, it didn't work against the Soviets in the Battle of Berlin, it didn't work in Custer's Last Stand, and it didn't work when the Romans were encircled by Hannibal.

Oh wait, we have General Custer, who would have survived if he bothered to bring Gatling Guns.

Thirdly, if you're going to make fun of my boy, Custer, at least have the facts right. He was a scouting party, not an artillery company. Gatling guns weigh upwards of 80kgs, and had to be carried around by slow moving horses. There is no way that would ever be compatible with a reconnaissance mission.

[Rustarus]

I usually don't call for evac because once they are up on the Almayer, I always seem to have them not really want to fight as much. They always split up into groups, and die alone, rather than fight together like on the planet. Once the xenos come up on the Almayer, you're sooooooorta screwed.

[Renomaki]

Firstly, the scale of the round is far too small to incorporate space travel. If the commander orders an absolute retreat, then yes, the operation is over. If the gamemode actually simulated beyond the point of retreat, deorbiting would be a very possible reality. Just because it isn't within the scope of the round doesn't mean it's not a logical action.

Indeed it would be logical to leave the planet and get backup (or just abandon the planet outright) if the situation seems too dire, but in this game, we can't really do that despite being the logical course of action. We only have 1 of 2 options:

1: we desperately attempt to rush to DS2 and land down as soon as possible in an attempt to counter-attack the xenos before they can lift off, or...

2: we just sit on our asses and wait for death, since the xenos normally waste no time upon taking LZ1 and preparing deployment to the main ship.

And if the past is anything to go by, the Admins don't quite like it when marines are quick to run away either. More than once back in the days of hugger combat, admins sent Iron Bears and XRTs to torment the marines for being quick to flee. It is as if they WANT marines to stand and fight on the ground instead of just rushing the Self Destruct Chamber and camping it till they get boiled to death. Of course, back then it was hanger camping, and admins didn't quite like seeing 50 marines camping the hanger to UGLspam them into acid-paste.

Nowadays, it is rare to see marines get punished in that matter (I think), but that is because they took efforts to nerf old tactics by making hanger camping obsolete (although now that has been replaced with SD camping, which is just as depressing to witness).

Secondly, we don't give up. We take the best course of action. A fight to the last man has never worked in the history of warfare. It wouldn't have worked at Dunkirk, it didn't work against the Soviets in the Battle of Berlin, it didn't work in Custer's Last Stand, and it didn't work when the Romans were encircled by Hannibal.

True, a fight to the last man is often a sad tale indeed. But it is indeed a tale to be told, a piece of history to be recorded. Last stands make for some pretty epic moments, and I recall quite a few in game that I still remember fondly to this day. I died with the men, yes, but I died feeling like a badass, a tragic hero who fought for what he believed in to the bitter end, throwing everything he has and then some at the approaching enemy. As they say, it is a good day to die if you know the reason why...

Hell, we even have a ship named after a last-stand, if I am correct. The Alamo, correct?

Thirdly, if you're going to make fun of my boy, Custer, at least have the facts right. He was a scouting party, not an artillery company. Gatling guns weigh upwards of 80kgs, and had to be carried around by slow moving horses. There is no way that would ever be compatible with a reconnaissance mission.

Yes, I might not be the perfect historian, but I do know that he didn't just throw up his arms and surrendered to the attacking forces that surrounded him. He stood firm against hopeless odds, not wanting to die without a good fight. Sure, he was foolish for getting into a fight he couldn't win to begin with, but still, he went down in history. Imagine how dull the story would be if he just up and surrendered?

I know that, historically, it rarely goes well... But it is still a heck of a lot more interesting than just pulling out as soon as the men pee their pants a little bit. Call me cruel, but I prefer to fight a good fight with everything I have, instead of just hiding on the Almayer and waiting for the xenos to crash.

That is just how I prefer to lead... Honorable, brave, and somewhat cruel and reckless.

[Skimmy2]

Hell, we even have a ship named after a last-stand, if I am correct. The Alamo, correct?

I may be biased cuz Texan so exactly how popular this is idk. But its pretty popular to name the last line of defense, where retreat is impossible, the Alamo.

I suspected DS1 is named that as LZ1 is always our last stand on the planet.

[SolarMacharius]

My issue with tactical retreats is once the marines lose a position on the planet, they almost never retake the area again. I think thats why on LV most CDR's send a squad to hydro, they know in the back of their heads that if the aliens set up a base across the river uncontested, the aliens are going to be basically untouchable unless the queen and several t3's are bad. In general that why tactical retreats arent called. The marines losing a position just get rolled back further and further until they are at the FOB

As for total retreats, most people do it because they know the round is already lost basically and are hoping for a minor with the Self Destruct. I think one reason marines react so poorly to no retreats is that they have managed to survive long into the round and they don't want to die now because command staff is being stupid. And no retreats are stupid in most cases. I think some people on this server forget its based on Aliens and not Warhammer 40k. Throwing wounded at the aliens as meat shields, battlefield executing people, not evacing wounded marines in pods, the constant "hold or die" rhetoric. Sacrificing a few companies to hold a position works if you have an army of millions to back it up, not when your a single patrol ship with maybe eighty marines total.

Also people automatically assume your trying to be Bill Carson (without the interesting RP aspects). That is not a fair assessment and shouldn't color peoples opinions of no retreat orders, but it does whether we like it or not.

Basically most people don't want to die and have to wait for the slim chance of an ERT roll to continue playing. Most people don't want to die planet side, thus under staffing the ship for the Self Destruct phase. Is it a bit Meta? You could argue it is, but most players don't care. Anything to stop a xeno victory.

[Kesserline]

My opinion on the "No Retreat" :

First of all, for the RP part:
If you check at the Lore, we are in the future. This is not WWI or WWII or WH40K (for a fictional reference) when you send hundreds or thousands of soldiers on small piece of lands and hoe that the numbers will make the difference.

For the gameplay part :

You have a battalion, divided in tactical units named "squads". Squads are not "platoons", they are not "companies". You have a limited amount of man-power. You are not UPP, you are not USSR. You are not having a infinite amount of materials, ammo, weapons, attachments, grenades to send.

For the strategy part :
The "No Retreat" is bullshit, because it does mean that, no matter what, you'll chose to deny evac.

BUT : It is not the "No evac" that is bothering me in this discussion. What is bothering me is the fact that, either one commander never evacs, either another one always evac too soon. You are commanders, you have a strategy, and a strategy is good on paper, but has to evolve because of battelfield changes.

When the CO sends XO, or LTs to take command groundside, often, the situation gets better for the marines. Because you send flexibility, you send fast-decision making.


PS : to remind you that the Almayer is a patrol-class ship with only 2 DS, no fighters/bombers. It is not an aircraft carrier, not a dreadnought, not even a cruiser. It is just a patrol ship to secure ground issues in colonies. I don't even think it could withstand a full space-to-space combat with a real space warship. So, thinking that the crew of patrol-ship can be treated like meat instead of a surgical tool.. Welp.