Marine Law Abuse dealing with Uniforms and Armor

[PWNJimiPWN]

wiki/Marine_Law <<< where i currently get my Marine Laws for our gaming server.
http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/United_States ... rine_Corps <<<<<<< For those who want to keep saying im wrong... enjoy.
"Moving around the ship outside the Cryo/Cafeteria/Preparation areas without proper military uniform for your job during non-emergency situations. Marines should always be wearing their uniform, boots, and armor at a minimum. Regular crew should be wearing their uniform and boots/shoes without armor unless there is a direct threat. MPs should not have riot armor except in riot situations. Any headgear should be your properly assigned headgear or an approved military alternative."
As you can see from the above quote it clearly makes the statement which confirms with the IRL way it is.. Uniforms are your fatigues, and your dress outfits. Ok so I will now explain what happened to make my first post ever on this forum...

A medic and myself go into med bay to get peri pills from a doctor but he wants to inject us with some kinda drug first blah blah huge thing happens and then at the end of it after being drugged in front of the mp several times... the MP hauls him to the brig after taking armor allocated to me by my SL.

Ok the MP states its a uniform violation.. wrong.. Uniform violation would be me WEARING a pilot uniform. MT uniform, Medical scrubs, USCM Engineering fatigues... commanders fatigues.. etc. Wearing an MP outfit these are Uniform violations which are punishable.

Here is the problem... people are playing MP who dont know how to read the laws as written and want to read them how they feel the law should be just to give them a bit more power.

"Moving around the ship outside the Cryo/Cafeteria/Preparation areas without proper military uniform for your job during non-emergency situations. Marines should always be wearing their uniform, boots, and armor at a minimum. Regular crew should be wearing their UNIFORM and BOOTS/SHOES without ARMOR unless there is a direct threat. MPs should not have riot armor except in riot situations. Any headgear should be your properly assigned headgear or an approved military alternative."

You will notice I have highlighted key words to pay attention to, and those of us who learned grammar in school will notice in the quote, Commas are where they are needed to be placed to show a list of things, However there is nothing to show that the uniform is comprised of your armor, If they wish to amend the marine law which would.. break lore and actual IRL laws... among other things. Then they should do so, because as the law currently stands and as it is meant to be correctly stated, it shows that your Uniform is one thing, your armor is another, and your boots are another... Why would it feel the need to classify these things if they were all apart of the same whole, I said it in these words hoping it will help some understand a bit.

An argument was made that the SL leader armor is only issued to your leader. Well allow me to remind you that the resources allocated to a marine or to a squad leader are now under that persons authority unless ordered otherwise. As such with the law currently written as is, if a SL gives someone their spare armor, it is just a resource being allocated to the squad at the SL's behalf. The SL is given resources to ensure the squad operates at its best and he/she distributes the items the way they see most beneficial or because they like an individual.

Now lets say you finally understand that the Armor is in fact not apart of uniform but simply a resource that is allocated to the marines and other combat personal just like you would issue a gun or a tool. I usually play medic, and as such I do not come equipped with an Incinerator, SL spare armor, Cable coils, welding goggles, incinerator tanks, grenades, sniper rifles, marksman rifles or blow torches.

These items i have mentioned are usually given out to the squad to ensure maximum efficiency but they are only able to be given if the person with authority over the resources grants authorization to the selected individuals within a squad. An SL has access to limited resources which he has authority to disperse among his or her men same with an engineer or a medic or a SPC.

No where does it say that the allocation of these resources is an offense or in violation of Marine Law. Back to our main topic, the armor.. The armor is NOT your uniform.. your FATIGUES are your uniform.

Uniforms are things like, Pilot officers bodysuit, Commanders clothes, USCM Medic Fatigues, Staff officer Uniforms, USCM Uniform, Medical Scrubs, Chief Medical Officers Jumpsuit,USCM Engineer Fatigues Military Police Jumpsuit... Chief MP Uniform, A liason's Outfit, There are a few more that I do not know the name of but you can see clearly these are the Uniforms and the different types of Uniforms..


I have withheld naming the individuals involved in the interaction today to prevent any bad blood or attempts at harassing them in game, we are all new at some point and learning our roles and classes, MP's have a tough job and sometimes people like to play them for the ability to feel all powerful, however playing an MP means you have READ the Marine Law book word for word and in my opinion you keep it pulled up as a page in the background while you play for quick reference.

It should be noted that there was an admin on that did not seem to know the marine law's either, and when i presented this information to said admin which will remain unnamed as I do not want them being brought harrassment, the admin tried to lump armor in with the uniform as one in the same. The admin said they did not wish to discuss the matter at all with me so realizing i would get nowhere with this particular admin I came straight to the forums, I hope this has educated those of you playing as MP's that the laws are as written and not for your own opinionated interpretations. I may just start role playing CMP to make sure that players at least know the laws.

I left out the many screenshots i took because I would rather we all just have a better understanding then pointing at people who didnt comprehend the law as written, We can only get better if we work together

[Crab_Spider]

My lord do I wish rule 1 was not a thing

[PWNJimiPWN]

Yea, i broke rule one a few times but only after a long period of fighting, and when my character feels like commands got their heads up their asses, but at the same time we can't see what they can, which is usually the bigger picture

[coroneljones]

It states that you need your PROPER UNIFORM, PROPER ARMOR and PROPER BOOTS

Proper uniform bunches up those three that you need.

Atleast thats my understanding of it

[PWNJimiPWN]

It states that you need your PROPER UNIFORM, PROPER ARMOR and PROPER BOOTS

Proper uniform bunches up those three that you need.

Atleast thats my understanding of it

It says Proper military Uniform, not proper armor because there is a regulation for that, the law permits to the uniform itself.

".. without proper military uniform for your job during non-emergency situations..."

[Feweh]

It says Proper military Uniform, not proper armor because there is a regulation for that, the law permits to the uniform itself.

".. without proper military uniform for your job during non-emergency situations..."

Dont pretzel rules.

Uniform is the entire marine outfit.

[Crab_Spider]

Yea, i broke rule one a few times but only after a long period of fighting, and when my character feels like commands got their heads up their asses, but at the same time we can't see what they can, which is usually the bigger picture

Rule 1 is Don't Be A Dick. It's a server rule, and I'm voicing my inability to just say what needs to be said to get my point across.

[PWNJimiPWN]

Dont pretzel rules.

Uniform is the entire marine outfit.

that is not pretzeling.. how can anyone try to justify it.. look at the in game mechanics.. you cant tell me im wrong with the law is written to show uniforms (fatigues body suits) are separate from Armor aboots and helmets. Armor is simply armor. Honestly its like you guys dont understand law in its literal sense, i used to study military structure and history, and although this universe is made up, we all know what this marine law is saying, if you want it to include armor then you guys will have to change the law. the law in its entirety reads...

Moving around the ship outside the Cryo/Cafeteria/Preparation areas without proper military uniform for your job during non-emergency situations. Marines should always be wearing their uniform, boots, and armor at a minimum. Regular crew should be wearing their uniform and boots/shoes without armor unless there is a direct threat. MPs should not have riot armor except in riot situations. Any headgear should be your properly assigned headgear or an approved military alternative.

When it speaks about proper military uniform for your job, it means, like the janitors, pilots everyone has their designated fatigues, in the real world you must wear your uniform at all times as well.

If you took this law and the case i have to a Military Judiciary court room, I would win hands down, you have to either rewrite the law or keep it as it is written and keep that in game.

So if you want to change the Law then you should all discuss doing that. other wise i am standing firm with my factually correct and backed statement.

[PWNJimiPWN]

Also should add a bit of background in local politics helps with understanding how laws work and are to be taken as they are written. (experiences in my life taught me to start learning the laws)

Laws are always as written, not as interpreted.

You can not deny that the way the law is written it is supporting the claim of the Armor being intwined in a uniform, You do not wake up with your armor on, you wake up with your uniform.

[davidofmk771]

First of all, the SL armor is not for random boots, its for replacement SLs. Your SL should not be handing out the armor, but that's IC so who cares.

What you seem to have trouble understanding is that the:
Uniform Slot
Armor Slot
and
Shoes Slot

MUST be filled by your standard-issue jumpsuit, armor, and boots. Those three articles make up a standard uniform. I don't see how this ISN'T rules lawyering because your entire argument seems to hinge on the use of the word "uniform" to refer to the USCM Jumpsuit.

[PWNJimiPWN]

First of all, the SL armor is not for random boots, its for replacement SLs. Your SL should not be handing out the armor, but that's IC so who cares.

What you seem to have trouble understanding is that the:
Uniform Slot
Armor Slot
and
Shoes Slot

MUST be filled by your standard-issue jumpsuit, armor, and boots. Those three articles make up a standard uniform. I don't see how this ISN'T rules lawyering because your entire argument seems to hinge on the use of the word "uniform" to refer to the USCM Jumpsuit.

Like you said IC, i'd say 2 out of 5 SL's will hand out spare armor, others will keep it in reserve in case too many resources are stuck to one marine, that marine gets dragged off then its like welp.. there goes our this that and the other.

The problem with how the law is written to try to make it support the counter claim against my claim is this.

It generalizes armor and the like while only properly naming the Uniforms them selves. What you are saying is interpretation over Law as written. The Law is written in the way that supports my claim, my post here is to say this, they either vote to change the wording of the law or they accept what the law is.

It does not matter if someone feels that the generalized term refers to a specific, If they want the law to represent that specific then they need to place in the law,

Moving around the ship outside the Cryo/Cafeteria/Preparation areas without proper military uniform for your job during non-emergency situations. Marines should always wear all assigned uniforms, boots, and armor at a minimum. Regular crew should be wearing their uniform and boots/shoes without armor unless there is a direct threat. MPs should not have riot armor except in riot situations. Any headgear should be your properly assigned headgear or an approved military alternative.

[PWNJimiPWN]

That would be a start to mending the Law in favor of a counter claim. They either mend the law, or rule as it is written.

I am not arguing my interpretation, I am only arguing what the law reads and how people are taking it, the rule of law is base line. Same with contracts and the like, if you use a generalized term but you want to focus or mention at specifics you need to do just that. Otherwise that generalization will come to bite you in the ass.

I love this game for the RP, I treat the Marine Law book as the law of the land. I will RP as the laws are all written. I just dont like poor RP where someone is RPing as the law but doesnt rule in a baseline which is how law works.

[PWNJimiPWN]

Like you said IC, i'd say 2 out of 5 SL's will hand out spare armor, others will keep it in reserve in case too many resources are stuck to one marine, that marine gets dragged off then its like welp.. there goes our this that and the other.

The problem with how the law is written to try to make it support the counter claim against my claim is this.

It generalizes armor and the like while only properly naming the Uniforms them selves. What you are saying is interpretation over Law as written. The Law is written in the way that supports my claim, my post here is to say this, they either vote to change the wording of the law or they accept what the law is.

It does not matter if someone feels that the generalized term refers to a specific, If they want the law to represent that specific then they need to place in the law,

Moving around the ship outside the Cryo/Cafeteria/Preparation areas without proper military uniform for your job during non-emergency situations. Marines should always wear all assigned uniforms, boots, and armor received at their personal lockers and only their lockers at a minimum. Regular crew should be wearing their uniform and boots/shoes without armor unless there is a direct threat. MPs should not have riot armor except in riot situations. Any headgear should be your properly assigned headgear or an approved military alternative.

I know its kinda sloppy, ill come back and edit it now and then, but its Law as written is all I am trying to say, at the moment the law does not prohibit armor sharing. It does not violate anything and a case in court would go against any prosecuting claims against a marine if they had consent from the owner of said armors. We could take the law a step further and say unused armor is to remain in the vendor or locker in which it originally resided.

But doing that would probably require a new separate law directed on SGt and SSGT, or higher if need be. Something about, " Spare armor is not to be given out under any circumstances unless otherwise spoken from command."

obviously im jsut throwing out an idea but you kinda get it

[davidofmk771]

That re-write has absolutely no effect on how the law is read.

"Marines should always be wearing their uniform, boots, and armor at a minimum"

"Marines should always wear all assigned uniforms, boots, and armor at a minimum"

What is the difference? This entire problem hinges on the use of the word 'uniform' to refer to both jumpsuits and the uniform as a whole (i.e. boots, armor, and jumpsuit), which never really affected my interpretation of the law.

This:

"received at their personal lockers and only their lockers"

Addition would also be completely worthless, as the law implies it already. Your uniform (WHICH INCLUDES ARMOR) would not come from the SLs room if you are a boot. Common sense must play a part in these laws or they will end up being too long for anyone to wanna bother with.

[PWNJimiPWN]

That re-write has absolutely no effect on how the law is read.

"Marines should always be wearing their uniform, boots, and armor at a minimum"

"Marines should always wear all assigned uniforms, boots, and armor at a minimum"

What is the difference? This entire problem hinges on the use of the word 'uniform' to refer to both jumpsuits and the uniform as a whole (i.e. boots, armor, and jumpsuit), which never really affected my interpretation of the law.

This:

"received at their personal lockers and only their lockers"

Addition would also be completely worthless, as the law implies it already. Your uniform (WHICH INCLUDES ARMOR) would not come from the SLs room if you are a boot. Common sense must play a part in these laws or they will end up being too long for anyone to wanna bother with.

Armor is not uniform, unless i misunderstood how the military runs in IRL and in this alternate universe. If the law states it then it is so, the law does not. Armor and boots can to great effect be made to a generalized term. They are not specific at all, this is the problem that the law has if taken to an actual court case. Law as written. Hell i could even try to side with the law and include armor in uniform but their is possessive and either way, if the SL that possesses the armor gives it to a marine then that marine becomes the new possessor of the armor making it theirs. This goes into a whole other branch to the law but are you understanding why I take great issue with the law as it is written? It is not sound.. You know what I will do you guys a solid here..

http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/United_States ... rine_Corps

[PWNJimiPWN]

UNIFORM
The Multi-Cam Combat Fatigue Uniform, commonly referred to as Utilities or Cammies by the Marines who wear them, is a three-piece uniform consisting of (from head to toe):
Multi-Cam Cover, or hat with Eagle, Globe, and Anchor affixed in the front above the bill
Multi-Cam Blouse with reflective nametapes above the left and right breast pockets
Multi-Cam trousers with six pockets
This uniform is one of two fatigues, or work uniforms worn by Colonial Marines. This uniform is worn during combat manoeuvres or field time, or on deployments where combat is supposed to be imminent. Several identifying patches and badges can be worn on this uniform depending on rank, location and Standard Operating Procedure of the Marines assigned command.

EQUIPMENT
"Hey, Ripley, don't worry. Me and my squad of ultimate badasses will protect you! Check it out. Independently targeting particle beam phalanx. Vwap! Fry half a city with this puppy... We got tactical smart missiles, phase plasma Pulse Rifles, RPGs, we got sonic electronic ball-breakers! We got nukes, we got knives, sharp sticks..."
―Pvt. Hudson, regarding the USCM's arsenal (from Aliens Special Edition)
The United States Colonial Marine Corps has access to state-of-the-art military technology and weapons, including orbital assault vehicles and armor support.
Body armor
M3 Pattern Personal Armor
M10 Pattern Ballistic Helmet
M4X Armor
Weapons
Bladed weapons
( there is alot more weaposn but you get what i am saying.. i know what i am talking about, i hate that people think im wrong. So please if you want the armor to be locked down then you must specify that there are rank restrictions to certain armors or you must go with what is states in the CM universe. so you either change the law or stay with the lore.)

[davidofmk771]

"Armor is not uniform, unless i misunderstood how the military runs in IRL and in this alternate universe."

Yep, there's your problem. Things are simply different from the current US military service in the Aliens universe. The law works as intended, which is preventing powergamers from using armor that is not for them. Be happy it isn't a server rule, because I think at one point it was.

[Feweh]

Dont create threads to justify your shitty understanding of the rules and then try to pretzel them.

Locked

[apophis775]

Just read this, and don't try to be a rules lawyer.
It's fine to try and start a discussion, but don't be a dick about it.

Specifically, Marines should be in FULL UNIFORM. Their Jumpsuit, Armor, Boots, and Helmet.

I'm not sure what you meant by "break actual IRL laws" cause there's literally no laws about uniform regulations.

Here's the gist:

You either wear your PROPER ARMOR, JUMPSUIT, BOOTS, AND HELMET. Or you face the probable MP baton. It's that simple.

Picking apart grammer or bending the rules to fit your opinion isn't going to help you.

In shot:
If you want to discuss it you can, but don't be a cunt about it (like you were in this thread).