Do we have too many support roles?

[Renomaki]

A recent update increased the amount of medics and engineers by a considerable amount, making it so that a single squad can have up to 4 medics and 3 engineers. At first glance, this seems awesome, but when you think about it... What if this hurts the marines more than helps them?

Think about it. Back then, we would have up to 8 medics at a time, 2 for each squad. They'll have their hands full, sure, but as long as they aren't bald, you can trust them to get the job done most of the time, provided they have enough protection from grunts. But now we have 16 medics maximum, which means now we have plenty of healing hands to go around, but less men who are capable of protecting them.

See, the trade-off here is that while we get more support roles, we lose more grunts who handle the dirty work. Medics and engineers aren't expected to be the fighting forces of the lot, so the responsibility to dish out the pain and take a poundin lay upon the shoulders of the Standards, who are equipped to handle more intense fighting. But since we increased the amount of support roles, that means we'll have less combat roles, which means less combat strength overall and thus less grunts to cover the medics and engineers.

Just the general fighting force will see a slight reduction in size, forcing support roles to engage in combat more than they should to make up the loss.

Maybe I'm just overreacting, but I feel that maybe we have... TOO many support roles now. Hell, 3 engineers per squad is already pushing it as is, do we really need 16 medics who'll probably spend more time fighting each other to heal people?

[Simo94]

remember this is marine nerfs month, and I really like this nerf its too cute

[Sulaboy]

You have a point, as a squad leader it is difficult to find PFCs who will listen to you about doing things. I mean we could always make the medics take a more combative role now that we have more. It could be nice to have medics and engineers as more combat roles.

[YourNeutralness]

I really doubt 4 extra standards per squad is going to be the difference between winning and losing. 4 extra Cpl's could absolutely be the difference though, especially as they can fulfill the role of a standard but obviously standards can't do the same things CPls do.

[Snypehunter007]

I think a decent argument could be made either way for this, but I do lean towards having less support roles.

While the system has it's own faults, you can identify the problem easier, usually, due to less people in the system and the support roles really shouldn't be engaging in front line combat most of the time. Engineers get a bit more leeway on the frontlines if they don't have anything to set up but medics should almost never be fighting, because someone is ALWAYS injured.

[thatguyfromlife]

I'd feel it be better with 3 and 3, partly because I like balanced numbers and partly because it'd better balance the medics. Another way to fix squad balance would be to add a couple more combat focused roles, like marksmen or demo experts. A couple more LCpl roles to help the marines in direct combat could make up for the amount of marines hanging back from the fighting.

[Solarmare]

More privates don't really add much honestly, they barely account for themself. Each medic is invaluable and a good engineer can help any fob last a while or build a new forward base during assaults on a hive. On the field support marines utility are far more desirable than another private. Ship side support roles are mostly fine as well, though perhaps those should scale a bit by population as well if they don't already. Only real role that doesn't add much is MT, just one can keep the ship running and another can end up being practically negative since more wouldn't do much.

[spookydonut]

It scales with population, low pop is the same but at roughly 100 players total you get an extra medic, then in high pop you get the full 4/3 per squad, so really you're getting an extra bunch of pfcs before you get the extra support roles.

[Solarmare]

Hmm, I was referring to a role like doctor. You mentioned MP's scale in mchat but I'm not sure about the other ones on the ship.

[caleeb101]

Nah man. Shit was too ridiculous when on event rounds or really high pop rounds we'd have about 8 medics to realistically 100+ marines? That's just.. stupid. Like that's roughly 1 medic to 10 people. No matter how competent they are, they won't be able to handle it. That's why you always have people dying from their wounds and bleeding out on those human v human event rounds cause they don't get medical attention. Same with high pop rounds, sometimes medics ignore people cause they have higher priority patients but if a person they decided wasn't a priority dies and they have to revive them, it only gives them more work to do.

And also, there are still a lot of incompetent medics when we only have 8. 8 slots is a small space to have fuckups on your team. If you have double that space, then you have a little bit of room for new players who want to be a "medic" and just genuine crewie medics. It's a good update, a marine buff in more ways than not and that's something worth standing up for.

[Philby0]

Add spec slots, buff xenos to compensate

[misto]

if any other roles are up for getting population boosted i vote for smarties. the tiny team in the movie had like two smarties, a whole shipful of marines makes do with 4

however, remember that medics and engis are often severely bottlenecked by their relevant supplies running out. 3 living engis or 3 living medics cant work when they burn thru all their metals/meds

[Surrealistik]

Engineers need more metal, like at least one 50 stack of metal per engineer so they don't death match each other for the precious, limited resources.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

Or they could just tip off the SL to ask Req for metal. With 200 points to start, Req can order 1000 metal and be set for the round. With a 6 points discount on every crate, you're looking at 120 points off the bill. That leaves you 80 points for 1000 metal

[Surrealistik]

Or they could just tip off the SL to ask Req for metal. With 200 points to start, Req can order 1000 metal and be set for the round. With a 6 points discount on every crate, you're looking at 120 points off the bill. That leaves you 80 points for 1000 metal

Nah, too much to hope for.

[misto]

nyeah, if they order literally nothing else but metal, which they aint doing, and which they must then pack into a crate, place the crate on the pad, and then its up to the SL to remember to put the beacon and then its up to the SO or whoever it is up there to push the magic button, and it seems to me that somewhere in all these convoluted steps, a lot of orders go missing or just sit on the pad unsent

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

I mean, orders may be forgotten but nobody ever forgets about FOB supplies. You're underestimating Req and SOs' ability to cooperate, or just Req's ability to keep yelling over the radio since we really don't have shit to do after the attachment rush.

[caleeb101]

issues arise when you have a lot of other shit to order and you traded it for a SUPER FOB though

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

issues arise when you have a lot of other shit to order and you traded it for a SUPER FOB though

But SUPER FOB is cool though, isn't it ?

[Kesserline]

Just saying, have you considered the following :

- When you have only 2 squad medics, they have to be versatile and carry ALL medical shits to be able to revive, CASEVAC and shits.
- When you have 4 Squad medics, why don't you make 2 assault medics, and 2 triage medics ?

Triage medics = basically the "normal" medics, carryin all the shits, roller beds and such.
Assault medics = relying mostly on pills and roller beds to treat light wounds, and carry wounded to triage medics which will CASEVAC.

You have now more mobile medics, having strong and specific medicine directly on the front (or basically 5 meters before the frontline) and triage medics, 15 to 25 meters in a safe rearguard.

For engineers, now, I think they can be more mobile and should play more on claymores and light fortifications to follow the frontline.

It's a buff, not a nerf. You have to think a way to take advantage from it.

[Symbiosis]

This does NOT hurt the Marines.

The Marines won back to back rounds yesterday on high pop.

Extra medics treating wounded, more Engineers setting mines and building cades...

I like it, more fun when the Marines present a challenge.

[Renomaki]

I still think that the amount we have is a tad excessive.

For instance, I had witnessed plenty of times where medics would, in their desperation to be useful, swarm lone wounded marines, all wanting to help him at the same time. Naturally, this can lead to said marine dying because 3 medics decide to inject him with quick clot at the same time rather than simply leave the job to a single medic who can more easily save their life on their own.

And ODs aside, it is kinda hard to feel useful as a medic when you have to constantly race others to the wounded first. It feels more like a competition to see who can heal the most instead of the intense labor of love I known it for.

As for engineers, back then it was easy to split items between the two so both would have something to do. But now that there is a 3rd engineer in a squad, how do you evenly split the items you have? One engineer gets a sentry, another gets mines, but what to give to the 3rd fellow? I dunno, but I can assume it really sucks to be the 3rd guy in the group, who'll be lucky to be left with sandbags if the other two didn't take em yet. 2 engineers is clearly the better number here, 3 is just a tad much.

[Symbiosis]

I still think that the amount we have is a tad excessive.

For instance, I had witnessed plenty of times where medics would, in their desperation to be useful, swarm lone wounded marines, all wanting to help him at the same time. Naturally, this can lead to said marine dying because 3 medics decide to inject him with quick clot at the same time rather than simply leave the job to a single medic who can more easily save their life on their own.

And ODs aside, it is kinda hard to feel useful as a medic when you have to constantly race others to the wounded first. It feels more like a competition to see who can heal the most instead of the intense labor of love I known it for.

As for engineers, back then it was easy to split items between the two so both would have something to do. But now that there is a 3rd engineer in a squad, how do you evenly split the items you have? One engineer gets a sentry, another gets mines, but what to give to the 3rd fellow? I dunno, but I can assume it really sucks to be the 3rd guy in the group, who'll be lucky to be left with sandbags if the other two didn't take em yet. 2 engineers is clearly the better number here, 3 is just a tad much.

You're making some assumptions.

You're making the assumption that the support roles are being played by competent roles. Two competent medics (Alicia Parkers) or engineers (Sur or Pyotr) and you're fine.

Two baldies and you're fucked. Frankly, so often I'll find a FOB or defensive line as a Hunter that's not secure, has openings, or is easily beaten down. That leads to me just ripping into a flank and notching the kills on the proverbial belt.

The medic situation? A few slashes and the wounded can generally self evac if the medic gives the appropriate chems. A bald medic will stasis bag and let the marine languish in hell.

I prefer the challenge of competent and well supplied Marines that can put up a fight rather than fold over with no chance.

[CaptainYankee]

I think marines and especially medic mains are too used to being constantly having wounded to treat, especially on high pop. Being able to take a breather and take stock of supplies and the state of the squad is a welcome respite.

Casevac clogged up? Yes, but as more people play medic They'll get used to when and when not Casevac. Also, Casevac is a luxury, and I think its a bit dangerous since there's less in incentive to keep lines to the front clear. With fewer wounded convoys moving to the lz, there is less marine presence along those lines. On maps like big red, a xeno hive at research usually results in a long and dangerous walk to and from the front.

All in all i think having 3 less pfcs on high pop isnt much of an impact on a squad.