Marine engagement theory: Why sending one squad to open a flank is bad

[HKO20006]

A squad of marines is like an eraser, it becomes unusable as soon as it's too small to be held.

For a squad of 10 marines, 3 downed marines (dead, hard crit, no hand, etc) are enough to warrant a retreat, as you need 3 marines to drag them, leaving you only 4 marines to actually stand and shoot.

So what a command can do is to make the eraser bigger i.e. have another squad in their back. With more marines in reserve, you increase the threshold of routing, giving medics a bigger buffer to get the downed marines walking again.

Skip to 1:00 to see the retreat turn rout
https://youtu.be/CuO00yKu-Gw

What if you don't retreat? Yes you have 7 guns, but what 10 guns can't do, 7 wouldn't do much. As soon as xeno shift their main force to face these 7, they are dead, which bring us to Defeat in Detail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz3JmXSEM4o

[FighterX2500]

Main mistake here was to send this squad while xeno hive wasn't distracted by main forces.
It is hard to make marines listen to your orders, they don't understand what retreat is and what flanking is, so they just go into bloodbath and got killed by standard Screech+Push + Boilers tactic.
Opening flank should and must be when highly concentrated forces are in area, especially xenos who are having superiority in closed area. The only way to stop that superiority is to surround them - distract and push.
But tactics require fast and obedient forces, which is not about USCM marines.

[JennerH]

I can attest to this, as delta SO I sent them into the flank and it worked, but it nearly didn't because they had no way of getting the wounded out while holding the line. Only the shear brute force of the other 3 squads pushing the main entrance kept the xenos from steamrolling delta once they'd lost a couple marines.

[Heckenshutze]

Don't tell me how to Unga my Dunga
- Average marine

[Renomaki]

Ensuring a good spread of troops is always difficult in this game.

You don't want marines to blob up, because not only does it make it easier for xenos to surround them, it also clogs up the firing lanes, meaning most of the men are just going to be diddling about trying to find and opening and friendly firing the crap out of each other.

You also don't want to spread your troops too thin, because then the xenos can easily mop them up with a large swarm and cripple the marine side, let alone cause morale shock to the other squads and increase the chance of a large scale retreat due to lack of confidence.

My ideal assault force would be a main force of two squads, with another squad not too far away covering a flank, and the final squad being in the rear providing protection and backup when needed. You don't need EVERYONE on the front lines all at once, but you do need to ensure your bases are covered to make it harder for the xenos to skirmish with your weak points.

But alas, most people will do what they think is right, CO be damned. Which of course results in poorly planned attacks that get people killed.

[Rohesie]

Usually it's one squad defending FoB and three squads attacking. When the frontline stabilizes, usually due to a bottleneck, my preferred method is having one squad hold the line and sending two others to flank. A single squad will have a much harder time flanking than holding a stable front. You need enough men for a push to absorb the unavoidable piles of wounded.

[WinterClould]

This is why the underground of Ice is SO FUCKING GOOD FOR MARINES AND THEY DON'T EVEN REALIZE IT. Flanks are easy, everyone's so close together, there are set lanes that are easy to follow, flanks can come from above ground via elevators.

Couple of you have seen me pull it off as CO.

Send 3 squads underground and one above for tcomms/Power.
One squad with some (But not your best) engis builds FOB.
2 squads scout south, one on the left bellow cargo, one to the right towards sec.
The surface squad needs to have your BEST SL AND THE BEST/MOST ENGIS. RUSH THEM to get comms and some power on. (You don't need all the gens just some)
Once the two scouts make heavy contact with the whole hive get the surface squad to book it to your elevator of choice, Research or Reception.
Once surface squad is ready to go down tell the FOB squad to abandon their position and rush in to help the squad with the heaviest contact. At the exact same time have the Elevator squad deploy.
Boom now you have a FULL SQUAD flanking behind enemy lines while another FULL SQUAD helps drive the xenos back into the flanking squad.
Other squad that's fighting on the other path just stops the fuckers from running or flanking.
At that point the xenos will likely abandon the underground and once they do that you've already won.

This plan has working stunningly for me with only small adjustments from good SLs improvising.
Orders are simple enough any brain dead marine who can just have some patience and listen just a little can understand it. Getting them to follow directions just takes some charisma. I've even told everyone this plan in ooc before round and the xenos were still to dense to catch on and try countering.

This strat is perfect, prove me wrong.

[Renomaki]

This strat is perfect, prove me wrong.

... Don't the xenos often swarm around LZ2 shortly after marines land? Like, in all my past experiences, it is very common for marines to get rushed at Ice's LZ2. Even if you have 2-3 squads down there, they often struggle to unleash their full power because of the somewhat tight halls, and if the xenos got a few boilers, they can just keep gassing the area over and over again until the marines panic and flee.

And trust me, morale is a big factor here, and nothing gets marines eager to flee like being rushed before they are mentally ready. It crushes morale and makes them feel helpless when they are attacked earlier than planned.

Sure, sometimes they get a foothold, but most of the time LZ2 attempts tend to get very messy. Moreso if there is no comms active upon first landing, making getting everyone rallied up at the landing pad a tad difficult, let alone coordinating. (and yes, I know that comms has been moved much closer these days, but you also have to consider the APC RNG ((if it starts broken or not)) and the capability of the engineers to get comms up ASAP).

Maybe it is just me, but I have way too many bad memories of ICE LZ2, to the point that I loathe being ordered to go down via DS2 on first landing, knowing the xenos will quickly swarm it as soon as they are aware.

Moreso if the queen is like Chubs, who is infamous for his blitz attacks.

... And then there are those few queens that decide to nest somewhere on the surface in some remote corner, which could result in marines putting all their resources underground while the xenos grow at their leisure (provided they aren't stupid and lead them to their nest).

[WinterClould]

Don't the xenos often swarm around LZ2 shortly after marines land?

It's a poor idea for the xenos to attack an LZ with 3 fully fit and able squads of marines ready to slay lizard behind. They'll be to young to reliably tank damage while still dealing it as well. Boilers can Hurt but this is okay. They'll be dealt with in the flank, or preferably you'll have your scout and sniper specs keeping them from fully engaging 24/7

And trust me, morale is a big factor here, and nothing gets marines eager to flee like being rushed before they are mentally ready. It crushes morale and makes them feel helpless when they are attacked earlier than planned.

Marines should be hyped up by the Charisma of their CO before this mission begins. The whole pre-operation prep should be like a fuckin pep rally for the marines. Without letting on of course that they're killer lizards down there you should be exciting the marine getting them eager and on edge just waiting to get into the thick of the fight. A team of good marine players will know that the underground is a frightening and cruel route to take. They'll be ready for a fight the second they land.

Sure, sometimes they get a foothold, but most of the time LZ2 attempts tend to get very messy. Moreso if there is no comms active upon first landing, making getting everyone rallied up at the landing pad a tad difficult, let alone coordinating. (and yes, I know that comms has been moved much closer these days, but you also have to consider the APC RNG ((if it starts broken or not)) and the capability of the engineers to get comms up ASAP).

Sure LZ-2 might get messy but that's okay. The point is for the hallway squads to get out of the LZ and down their lanes ASAP and for the FOB squad to only make light defenses. Getting comms up will be the very very first thing the top squad will do. You'll send them the moment they land at LZ-1 to book it as fast they can to set things up for the other squads. Even with a broken APC it's no worse then any other map and should be done very quick. This is why you send your best and strongest squad to do Tcomms, so it gets done quick.

Maybe it is just me, but I have way too many bad memories of ICE LZ2, to the point that I loathe being ordered to go down via DS2 on first landing, knowing the xenos will quickly swarm it as soon as they are aware.

It's not just you. But using this meta knowledge to your advantage is important. You know marines hate going down to LZ-2 and you know Xenos will think they're in for an easy win. This is when you spring the trap. Most players will think this is just a random "mixing things up" deployment by the CO, and not an actual well thought out plan. Crush them with their over confidence.

Moreso if the queen is like Chubs, who is infamous for his blitz attacks.

Chubs is a nerd number one. Number two he'd probably kick the asses of anyone no matter how good their plan is with his rush tactics. Nothing we can do about that but be glad he's getting married and won't be kicking our asses for a long while.

... And then there are those few queens that decide to nest somewhere on the surface in some remote corner, which could result in marines putting all their resources underground while the xenos grow at their leisure (provided they aren't stupid and lead them to their nest).

There's a chance for that sure. But the underground is a totally perfect nest for the xenos. There's no better place to put it from a meta standpoint. Placing your nest anywhere else puts you at a disadvantage no matter what, so I don't think many Queens would dare do it. But sure, if the underground is completely clear, and the xenos nest on the surface, and they wipe the squad that was deployed to fix comms, sure, this plan would be ruined. But maybe then the xenos would do something so fucking dumb it would blow everyones minds. Like hijack DS-1 or something. Then everything will be right back to a marine win again.

This can not fail so long as command is not Weenies and the marines are not mega cowards. They can even just be cowards, but not mega cowards.

My plan is perfect. No one can prove me wrong.

[caleeb101]

And trust me, morale is a big factor here, and nothing gets marines eager to flee like being rushed before they are mentally ready. It crushes morale and makes them feel helpless when they are attacked earlier than planned.

At this point, I like to imagine Captain John H. Miller from saving private ryan rushing me onto Omaha beach. You MAKE the ground to stand on or you die. That said, it doesn't make it any easier to establish a foothold when the xenos have you locked on both sides. Even if some marines manage to push into the cargo area, it just brings them further away from the help of the other squad and into the hands of the enemy.

If the whole force pushes, it just means the xenos quickly re-route and stomp you there. The only way to push out would be to initiate it with an OB or CAS which I believe you can't do if you're underground.

TLDR: I agree, a squad landing on LZ2 on ice colony is an e z cuck for marines.

[Rohesie]

This is why the underground of Ice is SO FUCKING GOOD FOR MARINES AND THEY DON'T EVEN REALIZE IT. Flanks are easy, everyone's so close together, there are set lanes that are easy to follow, flanks can come from above ground via elevators.

There is no piece of map better for Crushers to rampage through, with plenty of room not to just stomp, but to continue, turn around and charge again. The packed hallways also ensure a lot of FF should the marines try to react, and unless the engineers are very fast in setting strategical barricades it can so easily turn into a bloodbath.

I'm not saying there's no potential. I love the map. But it's one in which it's extremely easy to get entire forces wiped out with tiny chances of retreating before it's too late.

[Renomaki]

My plan is perfect. No one can prove me wrong.

Honestly, no plan is perfect, because not everything goes according to plan, plain and simple.

If a plan is indeed perfect, you should be able to repeat it over and over again without fail. But xenos are tricky things, and the marines are not always going to made up of capable people, let alone if you HAVE enough people (nothing sucks more than an understaffed CiC).

People constantly tell me that being a CO is not so much about leading your marines to victory as it is a game of "how will my plans go belly up this time?". Even if you win, chances are it wasn't because of your cunning leadership, but rather your marines managing to pull a miracle out of their butts at a good time. After awhile, I learned to accept that fact, even if it hurts my pride to admit that my efforts mean nothing in the long run.

Also, low blow man... Low blow. I may not be the best CO out there, but I try my best...

[WinterClould]

Also, low blow man... Low blow. I may not be the best CO out there, but I try my best...

I say it because I care Reno I hope you don't think that I don't like you. <3


While no plan is perfect I can see NO WEAKNESS in my plan.

If marines listen and pull it off we win a quick victory. Marines are happy and xenos cry.
If marines fail to execute the plan or are rushed down before they get any good chance to react, then the round is over in an hour total and we get to not play on Ice.
As a result my strategy is a win-win on both a technical level and a metaphysical level no matter the outcome.


While no plan goes well if marines don't listen that's frequently the plans fault. CO's will give orders that seem arbitrarily constraining for their marines. Limiting them pointlessly or telling them to do something that makes no tactical sense and or is 100% worse then doing something more in line with the meta.

My plan has no such faults.

It's simple enough for marines to know why their orders are important. Marines will know exactly where their place is on the battlefield and how their role ties into the grand scheme of things. It is just complex enough that xenos can only counter it should they meta it or the marines themselves fail to execute in a timely fashion, which is a failure of the players and not the plan in this case. It's drastically far from the typical Ice meta of sending everyone to LZ-1, but it forces the marines in such a way that they can't abandon the plan just to try and do the meta, like when CO's tell people to ignore the nexus/hydro and FOB at Cargo but people still do it anyway, marines can't do that with this plan on Ice.
While marines may not want to go underground to face waves of boiler gas and crushers, these are not things that are new to them. They've been fighting these xenos forever. They have hours, days, weeks, months, years experience fighting against them in tight tight hallways. In my experience running this mission plan out more then once marines are fully capable of facing their fears and fighting their enemies till victory.

Lizards are secretly pussies and in the confined hallways of the Ice underground, flooded with flanking and pushing marines. They just can't handle our tidal wave human wave tactics. Now if only this game wasn't so braindead that the only winning play is human waves.

My plan is flawless like the Hope fucking Diamond, as flaw less as this song: "Everybody Dance" by the amazing band Chic. I now declare this song the Theme Song for this mission plan. Operation: Le Freak.

So anyway, the arguments against my perfect strat are purely "Marines are bad therefore all plans are bad". Show me your better plan or real improvements you could make to this setup of mine. I'd love if anyones got anything that would make this even better.

[Vampmare]

....

Your plan is sadly shot through with holes. Underground Ice Colony is xeno turf and no way about it.

If the xenos feel like speedrunning ice colony, all they really need is 2+ Crushers and 2 Boilers, the rest doesn't matter.

I'll agree your flank might work in catching those Boilers off-guard, maybe getting a kill or two on them, but it takes one xeno out of the 30 available to spot them and the plan is out of the window.

You also seem to think that marines are the only ones using metagame for strategy, but in fact xeno like to do so even more than marines. When marines land on LZ2, I always look out for flanks because it's such an obvious bait.
If the Queen is even feeling frisky, she'll order the xenos to go LZ1 and that lone squad you have up top will get slaughtered. Leaving the three shitty squads to haul their asses to Almayer. This is a fact as I've personally been in a round that went like this. (We won as xenos, no surprise.)

I'm all for trying new strategy and most of all ending those Ice rounds as fast as possible, so keep it up.

[Gut_TC]

I wouldn't suggest any flanks unless the Xeno are unstable and weaken enough. It's like invite them to make those runners and hunters at the back on useful errands by capture more and produce more to fight front lines even more effectively. Even from front line push of 3 squads marine most of times can't even deal with one or two boilers keep bombarding acid globs in often thin and narrow places like caves or hallway. Let's not include Crushers and Ravagers response after the Acid Cloud.

That said tho. For me. Considering using Flanking tactics once Xeno are really but really screwed and off guarded by Orbital Beacon/CAS or extremely effective Marines push forcing them to retreat and focus/worries what's on front of them rather than what's coming at their back. When Xeno finally retreated at their main hive just to notice the flanking squads were already ahead of them, that'd be good flank. Considering they arrived in time before the front lines start to die off that is.

But again, most of times Xeno tend to flank at your own FOB when marines aren't focused there and cut the route from the war zone to FOB taking out those who are trying to evac, injured and left unguarded. Sometimes your Flanking team might just encounter those Xeno Flank Team instead. Things are dependable. Up to how bald each sides are than others.

[DriedMilk]

Comprared to the Marines, when Xenos get flanked it ends up REALLY BAD leading to the death of many sisters. This is due to how Xeno players don't expect flanking maneuvres and would rather rest just to realize you just got hit by an entire AP burst from the back.

I must outline the Xenos SUCK at adapting when compared to the Marines. This is because Marines are already used to gettting flanked while Xenos aren't.

Anyhow, flanking strategies shouldn't be coordinated by the CO but rather, between the SL and the SO.

[WinterClould]

Flanks shouldn't wait for the xenos to become unstable. They should start as soon as the opportunity arises and should execute full force the moment it's assured that they won't be left out alone. So, you shouldn't even start a flank if you're the only squad engaging the enemy and you shouldn't start a flank while your other squads are getting pushed back.

Think of it like a hammer, an anvil, and some metal. Your Flanking squad is your hammer, your Marines holding the front line are the anvil, and the xenos are that metal you're shaping. If you get a brand new hammer, but your anvil is old as fuck and beat to shit, and you try and shape some metal, you ain't gonna be making any master pieces. Same if you have a brand new anvil but your hammer is made up of salvaged parts of a buncha hammers, its gonna break the moment you strike.
Also take into account how long the metals been cooling. The moment the round starts is when the metal starts to cool. If you wait to long it won't budge when you smack it. As the round goes on your tools only get worse and worse as that metal gets harder and harder to shape. So, if you strike while the iron is hot, and your tools are in perfect condition, you can really make a work of art quickly.

I don't like it, but the fact of the matter is. If you deploy rapidly at 12:25, send your marines in a wide search pattern, and execute multiple flanks and a hard drive right at the xenos the moment you find them, it'll be your best, if not only chance you'll have at crushing them quickly. The longer you wait, the shittier your marines get, and better the xenos get, and the more fucked you'll be. At no point are marines stronger then when they first drop. Delaying drops on any map other then LV is really honestly really bad for you if you're playing to win. Building FOB's is pointless, just send everyone in ASAP, even the FOB squad, because you don't need a FOB if all the xenos are dead. Just get as many marines as possible to wherever the xenos are as soon as possible because all the xenos are in one place, why let them have the numbers advantage when its really all we got in the long term. Also, don't play the long game either, the xenos are balanced to be the winners when we do that since they literally because unkillable death machines the moment they become Ancient (Some would even say Elite).

Since we have the 25 minute timer on dropships, so long as you don't tell your marines to go directly to wherever the hive could be you aren't meta rushing. Tell them to just scout the general area of the map, have the marines fan out. Someone gets power and scouts, while everyone else just scouts. You'll find them via way of something leading you towards the hive eventually. When that happens take the treat of huge killer lizards very seriously since so far all you'll have found are them and a couple of VERY DEAD bodies. Send everyone in to torch the shithole the second it all IC clicks together that these things are dangerous and need to be eradicated.

[Casany]

Well heck.

People like to focus on winning a lot and I don’t get it. Have a fun plan man. Like do something wacky or crazy that’s practical but also adds life to the game if you’re gonna make a plan.

CM is already so drained of real creativity so instead of always trying to do the best do what’s going to make players have the most fun.

Also flanks are useful but usually you need to have diversion squads. I’ve tried to plan flanks as an XO and you almost always need one squad to get decimated so you can send one in to reinforce at the last moment and the other to pincer them in. It’s all about making the xenos think they’ve won.

This can go both ways. I once lured an entire squad of marines into the cave mouth by the sand temple as a queen and with a LOT of planning coordinated an ambush. The second the entire squad was in I came out of a door, screeched and had 30 xenos rush and murder them all. We had the marines think we were retreating and then we destroyed them

[HKO20006]

This isn't about winning, this is about doing better, winning is the result of doing better than the other team. If the marines just all rambo and hand the round, it just disappoint both teams. We don't like rambo marines, so this thread is to reduce rambo sqaud against the whole hive.

[HKO20006]

hammer and anvil,

Got a perfect example for it.

https://youtu.be/BaNGh-466lA
0:25 Charlie went south to open a flank while Bravo stay and contain the Xeno
3:10 Xeno gave no fuck and just break out
4:01 So much for the flanking

[WinterClould]

I'm only stating the actual optimal game winning meta because that's what I feel is best for this thread. To talk about the actual optimal way to play to win.

Now, if you want to be the CO with fun plans instead of high intensity win the game plans, so be it. More power to you. We need COs like that. But it's not how I've learned to play CO and it's not how I want to play it personally.

I don't play CO often, but when I do I want the marines to be motivated and driven towards the goal of winning and winning big. I want them to actually act and feel like a part of a real coordinated military effort to rapidly respond to any possible distress that may have fallen apon the colony and fix that shit. Be if a power outage and basically everyone gets the day off and we were all hyped up for nothing, or a raid on a full blown CLF base. I want the men ready for and expecting the worst. Not with words like "maybe there MIGHT be some CLF mayyybe" but instead with shit like "There's likely a CLF presence on the colony we'll have to rat out and find". Because really our whole world view should be looked at via the lens of the Vietnam war. We are checking out a colony that might have a power outage. We're reconing a village in the middle of a war torn country on the edge of communist territory, the village likely has agitators and will absolutely have sympathizers in it. Think if everything like it's Nam because that's really what our whole story is based off of minus the killer lizards.

Now back to plans.

Every marine should know the battle plan before they deploy. They should know exactly their place in it. They should know where they need to be, when they need to be there, and what they need to do when they get there.

These are all very important things that basically every commander ignores in favor of just throwing marines at the wall. I want to change this. I'd really like if all the whitelisted COs had a place we could just talk so we could come together with a real effort to actually change and get a little more serious about our roles. But since that prolly ain't happening because a lotta y'all a buncha shitters who won't give love a chance, instead ima just keep typing shit on the forums that maybe 5 other COs will read and maybe one will agree that we need to do better? Feel free to say something if you're dat boy who wants to actually try and make things better. Could use the comments and criticisms.

[Casany]

Well I have some comments then. Something I don’t see a lot of COs do is get a layout of every squad. Like, have your SOs who aren’t doing anything roundstart get you a written layout of the squads, so you know who has more engineers and medics and which spec is with who.

This can be very helpful for deciding what squad does what and where. If a squad has a lot of engineers, a full compliment but they have very few marines and medics assign them to the FOB. If they have a ton of standards and a full compliment of medics and a flame spec send them as a front line squad. If they’re just in general smaller than other squads and maybe have a recon or sniper spec send them in for flanks and scouting/bait.

No commanders from my experience do this and honestly they could benefit a lot from it.

[WinterClould]

I've found that more important then numbers is who the people actually are. A squad with 3 engis and an SL I don't know is great and all, but if I have no clue who any of them are I'd rather trust setting up Tcomms or power with the squad that only has 1 engis and an SL I know will get the job done. Recognizing names is something that's super important, nobody's can sometimes surprise you, but they also like to disappoint you a lot.

[Recounted]

Your better off sending Delta squad to flank and let all the other marines retreat accepting delta as causality

[Weaselburg]

Got a perfect example for it.

https://youtu.be/BaNGh-466lA
0:25 Charlie went south to open a flank while Bravo stay and contain the Xeno
3:10 Xeno gave no fuck and just break out
4:01 So much for the flanking

Jesus christ the stupid warrior castes doing there ¨Eh we have enough xenos now just kill them all¨. No matter what stage, even on the Aylamer, and if you have the carriers/ eggs, CAPTURE AND INFECT ALL THAT YOU CAN! YOU DO NOT NEED TO RACK UP A KILLCOUNT AS A HUNTER OR RUNNER YOU IDIOTIC MEMES