Civilians and Disrespect

[DeusMortis]

After a small discussion about civilians and whether they can be arrested over a Marine Law such as Disrespect to a Superior, I decided to make this thread as there was still confusion over it after.

Are Survivors exempt from Disrespecting a Superior? If not, who exactly are they not allowed to disrespect?

[Chaznoodles]

As far as I'm aware, civilians are not within the ranking structure - bar answering to the XO and CO/aCO - so cannot have the disrespect charge applied to them as it references a higher rank/position. As a survivor, you have no 'position' on the ship, so can't be held to this. As a civilian in Medbay, you answer to the CMO, and he only answers to the XO, CO or aCO.

If a civilian's insulting you, just order them to stop. If they keep doing it, arrest them for insubordination.

For reference, part of the medbay blurb when you join states, "You are a civilian, and are not subject to follow military chain of command, but you do work for the USCM." I'd assume this applies for all civilians.

[Sulaboy]

Pretty sure they have to respect marine law, but a better choice of action would be to send a complaint about the person in question.

[IrishCow]

arrest them for insubordination.

But Survivors aren't apart of the USCM so they can't be insubordinate, they CAN be interfering with military operations though which breaks domestic law.

[Fcanau]

IC no one on the Almayer is a survivors superior the way I see it. Even the CL is representing a WY division that likely has nothing to do with colony management.

MP's should make sure to disarm survivors and as PO I always let them know I have armed civilians coming up on the Alamo. If a civilian keeps talking crap and causing chaos the MP's should be free to stun and brig them- you can always sue the corps later.

[Amitt0]

Context is key.

Survivors while on board are subject to marine law.
There are divided opinions on the disrespect charge. I've never brigged a civilian for disrespect before though some say it's totally valid. I've seen some players use the civilian loophole to spit utter toxic vile Bullshit at MPs because they feel safe.
So..though the disrespect aspect is up in the air, civilians (including survivors ) are still subject to marine law while on the Almayer.
It's a military ship on active combat operations and the crew and MP staff can't afford the distraction of dealing with survivors role playing as schizo alcoholics.
Just use common sense.
It's okay to be traumatized after the attack on the Colony but if you role play a total lunatic then don't act so shocked when you are deemed unstable and a threat to the smooth operation of the ship and are just thrown in permanent confinement and forgotten about.
Need an admin to ultimately confirm the ruling.

[Shuffl3]

Marine Law is goofy and subject to some wildly pedantic interpretations.

The Commander of the USS Almayer and all its crew are not above UCMJ, Procedures, or Code of Conduct. UCMJ also applies to all personnel who are in the vicinity of a USCM Operation or on board a ship. The only exceptions are Diplomatically Immune Weyland-Yutani Executives (not including the on-board Liaison) and specially dispatched officials from High Command who have exception to authority for emergency matters.

This note, haphazardly placed at the very top of the marine law page, seems to be the reasoning behind applying Marine Law to survivors. But it only works with a very broad interpretation of what "all personnel" means. In standard usage, "all personnel" should only refer to what has been established contextually, "The Commander of the USS Almayer and all its crew". In practice though, it is commonly interpreted as "all persons" in order to apply marine law to survivors.

HOWEVER, this interpretation is not applied universally. Marine Law does not specify exceptions for belligerents(angry people like hostile survivors, CLF, UPP, etc.) So if it applied to all persons, then engaging in hostilities with these belligerent parties would be violations of Marine Law for pretty much the entire marine force.

The only real mandate to apply marine law to survivors is implied in the specific wording of the charge for Drunk and Disorderly

This only applies to Civilian jobs and Survivors: Excessive drinking resulting in either being unable to communicate and perform your job correctly, or belligerent behavior

But given that USMJ only applies to The Commander of the USS Almayer and all its crew, any MP presented with this course of action would have no choice but to implode in a small flash of light.

IRL, no civilian would be subject to the UCMJ. Western militaries are implicitly courteous to civilians and forbidden from enforcing civilian laws. On ship the captain would have authorities granted him via Maritime Law to adjudicate civilians, and on the ground international law would dictate how civilians were handled. CM does its own thing though and Marine Law should be properly amended to cover situations like this, but there is a good opportunity to make the Civ-Mil interactions a bit more rich instead of just lazily lumping them in with the boots.

Edit: FY07 Defense Authorization Act, SEC. 552 amended in june 2006 allows the civillians accompanying military forces to be subject to the UCMJ during "declared war or contingency operations" so, eh wiggle room.

[Weaselburg]

Survivors SHOULD NOT be brigged for disrespect, they are not working for the USCM, CL can't order them around. Unless they go full on-insane RP, only brig them for crimes. Assault, theft, the like.

[Bancrose]

Sometimes Survivors will do some pretty ridiclous shit, one time they RPly killed jones and tried to eat him in front of me.

So I emptied my Mateba into his disturbed body. but I do agree, I wouldnt brig em for disrespect because they aint a marine or someone whose contracted on the ship.

[Troika]

A survivor is not a personnel in the standard meaning of the word.

[Skimmy2]

The moment the USS Almayer entered the planet's orbit and begun Operations. Is the moment Marine Law applies to anybody within the Area of Operations. This means that the moment a UPP or CLF is somehow taken into MP custody before they are beheaded by a mad PO with a machete, then they are protected by Prisoner Rights that can only be denied by the CMP in special circumstance.

In more practical terms for this discussion, it also means that every single civilian onboard or within the colony must obey Marine Law.
The Medical Doctor and Researcher both answer to the Chief Medical Officer and so can only be charged with Disrespect towards them. The CMO answer to the Commander and so can only be charged with Disrespect against them.

I cannot find any information on if a survivor or Corporate Liaison answers to anybody.
Survivors whom are Colonial Marshals would be subordinate to the CMP and be expected to cooperate with the Military Police, however whether that means they are directly commanded by the CMP I cant say.

[Weaselburg]

The moment the USS Almayer entered the planet's orbit and begun Operations. Is the moment Marine Law applies to anybody within the Area of Operations. This means that the moment a UPP or CLF is somehow taken into MP custody before they are beheaded by a mad PO with a machete, then they are protected by Prisoner Rights that can only be denied by the CMP in special circumstance.

In more practical terms for this discussion, it also means that every single civilian onboard or within the colony must obey Marine Law.
The Medical Doctor and Researcher both answer to the Chief Medical Officer and so can only be charged with Disrespect towards them. The CMO answer to the Commander and so can only be charged with Disrespect against them.

I cannot find any information on if a survivor or Corporate Liaison answers to anybody.
Survivors whom are Colonial Marshals would be subordinate to the CMP and be expected to cooperate with the Military Police, however whether that means they are directly commanded by the CMP I cant say.

It is usually only applied in the FOB, DS, or on the ship.

[Kasius]

I think in these cases, it's better to read between the lines and take it by a case by case type of deal. Gauging them each by their level of hostility.

Scenario A:

Survivor: "You're a fucking useless pig!"
Survivor flips off the MP.
MP: "Okay cool. Move along, civvie"

Scenario B:

Survivor: "You're a fucking useless pig!"
Survivor begins punching and beating on the MP.
MP stun batons and brigs Survivor.

That's just to put it simply. People are always and will always look for loopholes in rules.

[Skimmy2]

It is usually only applied in the FOB, DS, or on the ship.

The Law applies to everyone within the Area of Operations, however is only enforcable by MPs whom are forbidden from leaving the FOB planetside, so kek.

[Shuffl3]

The moment the USS Almayer entered the planet's orbit and begun Operations. Is the moment Marine Law applies to anybody within the Area of Operations.

Wheres it say that tho?

The moment the USS Almayer entered the planet's orbit and begun Operations. Is the moment Marine Law applies to anybody within the Area of Operations. This means that the moment a UPP or CLF is somehow taken into MP custody before they are beheaded by a mad PO with a machete, then they are protected by Prisoner Rights that can only be denied by the CMP in special circumstance.

If marine law applies to everybody within the AO from 25 minutes into the round when the Almayer begins operations then anybody attacking the UPP or CLF would be guilty of assault/murder and/or be breaking MSR 6 and the MPs would be breaking GR 13 for standing by and not arresting them. Hell, orders of hostile action from the command staff would be unlawful.

Survivors whom are Colonial Marshals would be subordinate to the CMP and be expected to cooperate with the Military Police, however whether that means they are directly commanded by the CMP I cant say.

The funky grammar here makes that debatable.

The United States Colonial Marines Uniform Code of Military Justice is enforced by the Office of the Provost Marshal. On ships and USCM colonies this duty falls to the Military Police and Chief MP. They operate outside the authority of the command when enforcing the Law. The Chief MP has the final say on law enforcement within his operational area, unless overseen by higher ranking members of the Provost Marshal. Local Colonial Marshals are expected to fully co-operate with the Chief MPs and MPs when they are operating within their jurisdiction.

I would interpret it like this

The [CMP] is the highest judicial authority unless higher ranking members of the [Military Police] are present. [Colonial Marshals] are expected to co-operate with the [Military Police] when the [Military Police] is operating in the [Colonial Marshals] jurisdiction.

So, colonial marshals independant of the CMP, but any arrests they make are adjudicated by the CMP

[Skimmy2]

Wheres it say that tho?



If marine law applies to everybody within the AO from 25 minutes into the round when the Almayer begins operations then anybody attacking the UPP or CLF would be guilty of assault/murder and/or be breaking MSR 6 and the MPs would be breaking GR 13 for standing by and not arresting them. Hell, orders of hostile action from the command staff would be unlawful.

"The Commander of the USS Almayer and all its crew are not above UCMJ, Procedures, or Code of Conduct. UCMJ also applies to all personnel who are in the vicinity of a USCM Operation or on board a ship. The only exceptions are Diplomatically Immune Weyland-Yutani Executives (not including the on-board Liaison) and specially dispatched officials from High Command who have exception to authority for emergency matters"
Right at the very top of the Marine Law page.

[Shuffl3]

You just activated my trap card.

[Weaselburg]

Dude, Survivors usually don´t get marine law applied to them.

[Skimmy2]

You just activated my trap card.

Unless papa Apop wants to get up in dis bitch and bring down the law on this thread/discussion, it has already been established by the Administration that Colonists are subjected to Marine Law, hell if it wasint true, you couldnt arrest them in the first place or give them any protections under Marine Law.

Specifically Admin Tharinoma stated as such within the Marine Law Clarification Thread

[Shuffl3]

Specifically Admin Tharinoma stated as such within the Marine Law Clarification Thread

Colonists ae subject to marine law, " UCMJ also applies to all personnel who are in the vicinity of a USCM Operation or on board a ship."

MPs better start banning themselves then. A blanket application of marine law isnt just a funky interpretation, it creates silly causalities that should play out but thankfully dont because of common sense.

My point is that Marine Law is some goofy shit.

[Weaselburg]

MARINE LAW IS USUALLY MORE LINIENT OR DISMISSED ENTIRELY WITH SURVIVORS. SAME WITH CL(SOMETIMES).

[Skimmy2]

This discussion honestly doesint matter, the only person who's interpretation of Marine Law that matters is the CMP of that round.

You dont like it, then ahelp and get the staff's interpretation which becomes the will of god.
Problem solved.

[Jonesome]

The way I see it, civilians are under the jurisdiction of a military contingency operation, and are thus subject to UCMJ. While you probably can't charge one with disrespect, it could possibly fall under the envelope of hooliganism/disorderly conduct if it gets to the point that it's disrupting operations and becoming a distraction.

[I_Solve_Practical_Problems]

It seems in most instances where Marine Law apply to civilians, there would be a civilian law counterpart. Contraband, assault, weapons violations, drug dealing, and other obvious stuff would have equivalents in civilian law, in which case it's fair for the MPs to enforce those laws. Marine law already takes into account civilians because "Drunk and Disorderly" and "Drunk on Duty" are separate violations for civilians and marines, respectively, so there's an element of parallel enforcement.

The only Marine-specific laws that I don't see applying to civilians would be insubordination, neglect, disrespect, and maybe mutiny. All four violations require the offender to undermine the legal command structure, but survivors/CLs exist outside of that framework. For a thought experiment, if we could charge a civilian with disrespect, where would the cutoff be? Would they be ranked above the enlisted, but below commissioned officers? Equal to privates? If it's the former, they could still abuse MPs and if the latter, they'd be equivalent to mulched wood. In any case, if a survivor/CL is being disruptive enough to be charged with any of those four laws, there are other violations to slap on like assault, disorderly, or murder, so it probably washes out in the end.

[Heckenshutze]

Pull the civilian to the disposal room and buckshot him in the face.

Only law they deserve