Tank update?

[Bulaven]

Sorta like how British Commandos had to learn how to protect their shitty Tetrarch tanks from German infantry.

Or. Hell. The Germans protecting the flanks of a piece of crap Renault they captured from the French.

Basically: The Longstreet is -Not- a Main Battle tank, nor is it even a Medium tank. It is a light, easily deployable weapons platform to support the already fairly lightly armed Marines when they need to take on a fortified enemy position.

Thing is? Aliens don't fortify. They ambush. So. I will restate that infantry need to learn how to properly keep up with the armor.

[Bulaven]

Fuck it! Give us a utility vehicle with an LMG.

Or just let us build a Gygax. Not asking for a genuine exosuit outta AVP 2, with dual-miniguns, a SADAR launcher, and a laser...

Just. Y'know. A beefy robot that fires grenades.

[Meatshield]

The tank is not bad with infantry support, and very good way to spearhead an attack. The main problem is in nearly all levels, it is nearly impossible to navigate the tank elegantly in caves or in buildings. In Big Red, for example, it cannot access Research, Lambda or the caves. I think thats the main issue I have with it.

[HellTrooper]

What i belive we sould have gotten instead of that hot garbage on tacks,

A 2x3 jeep wich can carry 4 marines+ a gunner on top (let us repace the turret with extra parts orderd from cargo),
engis can put metal on it to enhance the armor but make it slower,benos can slash the tires to slow it down and the front of it to disable the engine,
have 8-4 of them, witch can be distributed amongs squads by command, meaning you can get one fully mobile squad or two half mobile ones or 1-2 for each of them.These can fit on the maps and be relevant as transports and inf support,you can put in a trunk with wich you can transport supplys.Medics can use these to escort wounded ect.This would be 10 000 times better then the tank, the only problem is balance but that could be fixed.

[RobBrown4PM]

It's offensive weapon arrays need to be buffed, specifically the TOW. I've seen those things smack runners dead on and not kill them, or, crit them even.

[Bulaven]

What i belive we sould have gotten instead of that hot garbage on tacks,

A 2x3 jeep wich can carry 4 marines+ a gunner on top (let us repace the turret with extra parts orderd from cargo),
engis can put metal on it to enhance the armor but make it slower,benos can slash the tires to slow it down and the front of it to disable the engine,
have 8-4 of them, witch can be distributed amongs squads by command, meaning you can get one fully mobile squad or two half mobile ones or 1-2 for each of them.These can fit on the maps and be relevant as transports and inf support,you can put in a trunk with wich you can transport supplys.Medics can use these to escort wounded ect.This would be 10 000 times better then the tank, the only problem is balance but that could be fixed.

+1. Guy has a solid idea. It would take a lot of work, but partially mechanizing the Company would be a good, viable concept.

[Jonesome]

Let’s not stray too far from muh lore here

[Wubs4Scrubs]

You do realize that in real life, tanks are much more vulnerable than you imagine them to be.

Ah the old IRL argument. Just as flawed now as it has ever been. You're very correct, in real life a tank without infantry support is a dead tank. However:
In real life half of your soldiers aren't 14 year olds
In real life you don't have to type in the middle of combat
In real life you have more than 10 minutes to coordinate an attack with over 100 marines
In real life...well you get the picture.

Comparing a video game to real life is a horrible argument because they aren't the same thing. War is hell, and I don't want to play hell, I want to have fun. Mechanics should always be implemented that are FUN and add to the gameplay on the server, not because they are realistic. If some mechanic can be added that is both fun and realistic, great! However, the tank in its current state is objectively out of place. Its guns are underpowered, it is slow, and requires way to much investment from requisitions to even raise to the level of bad instead of unplayable.

Any argument that marines need to "learn to coordinate with the tank better" is ridiculous considering the average state of marine command. You can't even get marines to go around a chokepoint, let alone have the patience to follow around an armored slug that can't even support them in combat! If a single xeno gets into close range (which they always will) with the marine escort, even if the tank manages to get its massive ass in a position to fire it will undoubtedly cause more friendly fire than anything. Imagine you have 5 marines escorting a tank, since the tank has no extended view it will only see the aliens that get close enough to melee attack the escort soldiers. If you have the AP minigun what are you going to do? Fire a burst to hit the alien twice and turn the marine into swiss cheese?

The tank just doesn't fit any niche in the game currently. As I was typing up this post I actually saw the changelog which makes the regular tank gun better so maybe it will see some play although I personally doubt it.

[Bulaven]

Ah the old IRL argument. Just as flawed now as it has ever been. You're very correct, in real life a tank without infantry support is a dead tank. However:
In real life half of your soldiers aren't 14 year olds
In real life you don't have to type in the middle of combat
In real life you have more than 10 minutes to coordinate an attack with over 100 marines
In real life...well you get the picture.

Comparing a video game to real life is a horrible argument because they aren't the same thing. War is hell, and I don't want to play hell, I want to have fun. Mechanics should always be implemented that are FUN and add to the gameplay on the server, not because they are realistic. If some mechanic can be added that is both fun and realistic, great! However, the tank in its current state is objectively out of place. Its guns are underpowered, it is slow, and requires way to much investment from requisitions to even raise to the level of bad instead of unplayable.

Any argument that marines need to "learn to coordinate with the tank better" is ridiculous considering the average state of marine command. You can't even get marines to go around a chokepoint, let alone have the patience to follow around an armored slug that can't even support them in combat! If a single xeno gets into close range (which they always will) with the marine escort, even if the tank manages to get its massive ass in a position to fire it will undoubtedly cause more friendly fire than anything. Imagine you have 5 marines escorting a tank, since the tank has no extended view it will only see the aliens that get close enough to melee attack the escort soldiers. If you have the AP minigun what are you going to do? Fire a burst to hit the alien twice and turn the marine into swiss cheese?

The tank just doesn't fit any niche in the game currently. As I was typing up this post I actually saw the changelog which makes the regular tank gun better so maybe it will see some play although I personally doubt it.

Now, to be fair, sometimes Role-playing involves semi-realistic consideration and comparison to 'Ye Olde Reale Worlde'. No need to be up in arms about the argument if at least a modicum of merit can be thrown it's way. If there wasn't such consideration, I could almost guarantee you that Role-playing would have no part on the server.

And, on that same page, neither would a ruptured lung.

Basically, what I am saying is: Have a little faith in Beta testing a tin-can with a gun, and try not to crucify people who try to defend a point of view you find 'Not fun'.

[Damous]

A big, robust and rugged FOB is better than several checkpoints scattered around the map.

[VoltageHero]

Let’s not stray too far from muh lore here

To be fair, the Longstreet itself isn’t really touched on s lot in lore (unless it’s more common in the comics).


That said while the general idea is really good, 4-8 is way too much, given that this is giving squads two fast mounted machine guns that allow them to quickly escape in and out. Fixing issues by adding another issue wouldn’t help anything. Furthermore it completely wipes two roles out of the playable list. While I know it’s not the majority, some players don’t like playing in the pure combat roles, and be more supportive which is (in the end) what the tank is.

A simple, more balanced replacement that still follows lore would be to add in the M577, aka the APC they come in on and use as their “defensive structure” for a good part of Aliens. In lore it’s a two person APC, and can easily fulfill the ground support when the Alamo or Normandy simply can’t. Give it light guns, with a cheap cost. Use it as medevac, light Marine support, or what not. Have an interior, and tada. Want Req to still outfit it? There’s different weapons and ways to change it up.

Suddenly the tank becomes useful, lore-friendly, and keeps the two slots. Of course, this won’t happen though.

[Whiteflicker]

Here's my two-cents.

I know that the tonk is still being 'tested' and everything is still raw and uncooked since it was basically shoved out there for one reason or another and its gonna get better. I also know that the engine limitations MAYBE do not let the tank turret turn on its sprite... Etcera, etcetera.

How about... Not having a Light battle tank that is basically a pillbox destroyer and nothing else, but a troop transport instead. Or maybe make people able to /choose/ a wider variety of things.

Or, like everyone says, a small jeep with a gun ontop since now we supposedly have the groundwork to make more land vehicles.

OR MAYBE, the vehicle operators get to choose between different vehicles that are called up their elevator, and they have their own parts fabricator with enough points to outfit a single vehicle with the bare minimum.

► Show Spoiler

They can choose one between...

a small, fragile, but fast jeep/car/halftrack with either a M56D (with IFF and NORMAL bullet speed), a RE-LOADABLE, DOUBLE-SHOT rocket launcher with NO SMOKE SCREEN, or a small autocannon/minigun (high damage, tangible bullet spread, no IFF) ontop and some transport space. Like a shotgun seat and two at the backside.

(Would be nice if the marines ontop of the JEEP could still shoot their guns. I know its possible.)

A middle-ground between a tank and a jeep but with extra transport space. basically the APC from the movies -- the M577 Armored Personnel Carrier, with its twin-linked gatling turret and large troop compartment, capable of transporting at least 13 marines. Though it cannot be outfitted with extra armor.


AND the Longstreet. Which, in its current state, is pretty shitty if you ask me.

Otherwise, well, you know what would be cool? Make the driver able to alter its speed, so it can actually go fast when it needs to.

Maybe work it like a crusher, so that when it goes in a straight line for enough tiles it can plow through buildings, people -- whatever, and goes ridiculously fast, but can't immediately stop and deals HEAVY damage to marines and aliens in the way.

I think that's enough from me.

[Bulaven]

I will admit, a hedge-cutting plow, like the ones they used for the hedgerows in WWII, would be handy, regardless. The amount of C4 it takes just to get the tank to the front line on Unga Jungle is a major resource drain, and not feasible.

[Solebat]

Lights - IS THIS SO HARD TO PUT A LAMP ON A TANK? WHAT? TOO MUCH LIGHT WILL MAKE MARINES OP? WELL, AT LEAST GIVE NIGHT VISION TO CREW.
Trunk - if tank cannot load it's cannon from inside, it should at least be able to carry it's stuff in it.
Heating - crew shouldn't be off it's ass to find coifs wich aren't given to them.
Driver's gun - it's OK to give driver control of some coastal gun since gunner cannot do both and there is no commander.

Most modules should be default, not something you have to choose from. Oh, and crew's uniform sprites suck.

[FearTheBlackout]

I think my biggest grief with the tank is one that can't really be fixed: It's pretty much impossible to have consistently good Tank Crewman because there are only 2 slots and everyone is vying for them. I never see a TC character more than once and I haven't gotten TC in 2 days despite rolling for it every, single, round.

[Bulaven]

It took roughly six rounds for me to get TC. But, yes. Additional crew could ease this.

[KittyHawkpilot019]

The TC's shouldnt rely on REQ to get the hard points, a tank hard point fabricator (like the dropship part fabricator) In the tank bay, and on lowpop as-well is a pain because most of the time the MT's wont stay after they've setup the power. So engineers on the ground should be able to field repair the tank, but not replace the modules. Having to rely on the MT's for repair can be a pain. I have yet to see a tank used as a part of the FOB. It would also be cool to have marines jump on to the tank for transport, and being able to shoot on there as well.

[Bulaven]

The TC's shouldnt rely on REQ to get the hard points, a tank hard point fabricator (like the dropship part fabricator) In the tank bay, and on lowpop as-well is a pain because most of the time the MT's wont stay after they've setup the power. So engineers on the ground should be able to field repair the tank, but not replace the modules. Having to rely on the MT's for repair can be a pain. I have yet to see a tank used as a part of the FOB. It would also be cool to have marines jump on to the tank for transport, and being able to shoot on there as well.

Yeah. The lack of a TC being allowed to repair basic components beyond the tracks doesn't make too much sense. I know some people hate the "Real life" argument, but.. You get the point.

[Renomaki]

Yeah. The lack of a TC being allowed to repair basic components beyond the tracks doesn't make too much sense. I know some people hate the "Real life" argument, but.. You get the point.

Which is weird when you think about it...

How come POs can upgrade their own ships, while TCs can't?

I'm not sure what tank training covers, but no doubt they at least understand some basic repair work in the event of a tank breaking down on the field. But then, Apop was in the army, most of us aren't, so he probably would know what the deal is.

It would be nice of the TCs could handle themselves a tad more. Then again, it could be a form of balancing to countermeasure the power the tank can bring to a fight. If the tank could easily self repair, then it would be broken gameplay wise.

[Bulaven]

Which is weird when you think about it...

How come POs can upgrade their own ships, while TCs can't?

I'm not sure what tank training covers, but no doubt they at least understand some basic repair work in the event of a tank breaking down on the field. But then, Apop was in the army, most of us aren't, so he probably would know what the deal is.

It would be nice of the TCs could handle themselves a tad more. Then again, it could be a form of balancing to countermeasure the power the tank can bring to a fight. If the tank could easily self repair, then it would be broken gameplay wise.

Search and Rescue/Emergency Trauma treatment are more my forte. I don't know shit about tanks, save for what I have read in history books.

Still, be that as it may, I don't think we are alone in thinking that a Tankie ought to be able to figure out their ass from their elbow when it comes to field repairs.

Then again, the Soviets were known for just throwing men behind the wheel.

[Pogo92]

Which is weird when you think about it...

How come POs can upgrade their own ships, while TCs can't?

I'm not sure what tank training covers, but no doubt they at least understand some basic repair work in the event of a tank breaking down on the field. But then, Apop was in the army, most of us aren't, so he probably would know what the deal is.

It would be nice of the TCs could handle themselves a tad more. Then again, it could be a form of balancing to countermeasure the power the tank can bring to a fight. If the tank could easily self repair, then it would be broken gameplay wise.

I can't say for certain nowadays, but in WW1 and WW2 a tank crew was expected to be able to perform all but the most intensive repairs and maintenances to their vehicle. /shrug

[Forst]

I drove the MRAP overseas. We were taught basic maintenance and quick fixes but nothing more than that. Replacing parts/repairing breakdowns was something done by maintenance back at the FOB, which put the vehicle out of action for a couple hours or 2-3 weeks depending on how many buildings I drove through and how many bricks they had to dig out of the radiator.

Lets avoid realism on this one.

Also considering that /this/ is canon, lets assume that we have the engineering experience to do field repairs.

► Show Spoiler

[Bulaven]

I drove the MRAP overseas. We were taught basic maintenance and quick fixes but nothing more than that. Replacing parts/repairing breakdowns was something done by maintenance back at the FOB, which put the vehicle out of action for a couple hours or 2-3 weeks depending on how many buildings I drove through and how many bricks they had to dig out of the radiator.

Lets avoid realism on this one.

Also considering that /this/ is canon, lets assume that we have the engineering experience to do field repairs.

► Show Spoiler

Alright. I'm sold.

[FearTheBlackout]

I'm in total support of the tank crew being able to do repairs. See here for my vision: https://gitlab.com/cmdevs/ColonialMarines/issues/3280