Viable Mutinies? RP question

[jackrkazi]

OK so we had a situation today that was.... odd to say the least, so I thought I'd throw this out here and get opinions, since mutinies don't happen often.

So we had an CO who started off RPing pretty seriously, even threatened to BE people at briefing because no one would settle down. But.... once we got planetside he took on this whole different persona, basically started asserting that we'd taken 0 casualties and were winning the fight even as the xenos pushed us back across the river and murdered whole squads in the caves. I don't think its an issue RPing as the "morale" commander, but... he was constantly denying any conflicting info even as our forward squads got ravaged and basically kept ordering everyone to attack even as they became more and more combat ineffective.

This isn't bad in and of itself, commanders are allowed to be aggressive. The problem occurred when the both the Req and Engi departments aboard ship stopped supplying crates and OB for the ground forces, even after we had SLs on the com SCREAMING for support and calling out cords, the CO did nothing and didn't even acknowledge this. The same thing happened when our 2nd PO went SSD and we lost CAS for half the round. On top of that only two out of the four squads had functioning SOs, requiring myself and the other staff officer to manage two squads at once, and even after we began demanding support and supply drops, the CO did nothing and basically ignored our requests because we were "winning".

The CO didn't even order an evacuation, I had to go down to the planet personally and order everyone on site to pack up and evac because the CO was threatening to have me jailed once I started countermanding his insane orders over the com. The XO was also complicit in all of this as they basically just went along with the COs RP.

After we evaced me and the survivors got together and, blaming the mission failure on the incompetence of the CO and XO and decided to remove them from command. So got pretty much all the survivors, like 15-20 guys, to march into the CIC and force the CO out of command. Now this all happened organically as a direct result of the COs RP, which I personally think is great, even if people were really salty when the round ended.

However, from what I've heard, according to the rules you need to ahelp a mutiny with at least 5 people and more often than not, the admins will deny your request. So my question is this. Under these or similar circumstances where the CO in charge is demonstrating obvious incompetence and lack of ability to command, is it justified to allow a mutiny to organically develop, or are you supposed to quell it regardless of peoples feelings and the nature of its development simply because the rules say otherwise?

If the answer is the later, then what constitutes a viable mutiny?

[x31stOverlord]

The changes to mutinies means that mods cannot deny mutiny requests that are serious. Obviously they can deny them if the reason is absolutely retarded.

If you have 5 people, a legit reason to, then Ahelp and the mods will give the all clear

[SolubleWhenWet]

Hi, I was Jason 'Clutch' Hakim, the Executive Officer during this round, I remember it clearly.

Commander did say some pants on head retarded shit about the casualty rate, but I'm assuming it would be to save face to superior officers, I even deployed because I saw how poor the situation was, and no doubt you may have been one of the marines who mistakenly blamed me for the false announcements, but I went along with the CO as he was my superior, and denied my life as a casualty when the Alamo abandoned me and my fellows(including the synth).

As for requisitions, they were sending supplies but we failed to get updated coordinates. The supply line was fucked and I couldn't fix that. Try and dig deeper with your own initiative, they probably sat at the LZ all day.

Had I survived, I would have stepped down, as the CO clearly didn't respect the lives of the enlisted casualties; an ahelp for mutiny would definitely been valid, IMHO.

Glad you posted a topic on this fella, just my two cents if it clears up any bad feelies about that round.

[carlarc]

tom dinkle best CO

or was this one heinz i forgot

[David Stormwell]

tom dinkle best CO

or was this one heinz i forgot

It was Dinkle

[jackrkazi]

Hi, I was Jason 'Clutch' Hakim, the Executive Officer during this round, I remember it clearly.

Commander did say some pants on head retarded shit about the casualty rate, but I'm assuming it would be to save face to superior officers, I even deployed because I saw how poor the situation was, and no doubt you may have been one of the marines who mistakenly blamed me for the false announcements, but I went along with the CO as he was my superior, and denied my life as a casualty when the Alamo abandoned me and my fellows(including the synth).

As for requisitions, they were sending supplies but we failed to get updated coordinates. The supply line was fucked and I couldn't fix that. Try and dig deeper with your own initiative, they probably sat at the LZ all day.

Had I survived, I would have stepped down, as the CO clearly didn't respect the lives of the enlisted casualties; an ahelp for mutiny would definitely been valid, IMHO.

Glad you posted a topic on this fella, just my two cents if it clears up any bad feelies about that round.

Going back I will admit I stopped receiving cords for Supply drops and just got people yelling for supply drops, but there was at least one SL (I think it was Julian Petrov) who was constantly calling out cords for CAS and OB which couldn't be fulfilled because no one was loading the gun or flying the DS at the right time.

Thanks for the two cents though, honestly I don't have any bad feelings about the round and I loved every minute of the RP, I just wanted to clarify when mutinies are valid since I've heard a couple other people got banned for it in the past.

Also sorry you got abandoned

[ImHereToHelp]

I play a character named Tom Dinkle.

OK so we had a situation today that was.... odd to say the least, so I thought I'd throw this out here and get opinions, since mutinies don't happen often.

So we had an CO who started off RPing pretty seriously, even threatened to BE people at briefing because no one would settle down. But.... once we got planetside he took on this whole different persona, basically started asserting that we'd taken 0 casualties and were winning the fight even as the xenos pushed us back across the river and murdered whole squads in the caves. I don't think its an issue RPing as the "morale" commander, but... he was constantly denying any conflicting info even as our forward squads got ravaged and basically kept ordering everyone to attack even as they became more and more combat ineffective.

"Basically ordering everyone to attack."

Can you point to a specific instance where I told everyone to attack? Because looking through my 2 hour footage of the round I've only found this instance:



After that attack order, the tactical map went from....


This:


To this:



So, as someone who has played this game many times, I've concluded that we lost. There is absolutely nothing marines can do from that massive set of casualties (heh) to come back at all. There is nothing I can do from CIC to win this round and even if you replaced every marine with extremely robust players, we'd still lose. The game was a guaranteed loss. So, what did I do? I decided to play around a bit. What's the point in doing the same ol schtick when I could add some flavor in what would be a typical bland marine loss?

That's when I decided to "crack". I decided to play it off like we were winning and no one has died at all to save face. I personally thought it was comical and there were plenty of people getting into it and I generally feel like it made some people's round more memorable than a generic marine loss.

This isn't bad in and of itself, commanders are allowed to be aggressive. The problem occurred when the both the Req and Engi departments aboard ship stopped supplying crates and OB for the ground forces, even after we had SLs on the com SCREAMING for support and calling out cords, the CO did nothing and didn't even acknowledge this. The same thing happened when our 2nd PO went SSD and we lost CAS for half the round. On top of that only two out of the four squads had functioning SOs, requiring myself and the other staff officer to manage two squads at once, and even after we began demanding support and supply drops, the CO did nothing and basically ignored our requests because we were "winning".

You don't understand how much radio spam a CO gets. I don't exist to get you your precious AP mags the moment you ask for them. If we don't have a competent requisition staff, tough luck. As for OBs, I had plenty of SOs to manage that. If they wernt on the ball coordinating an OB then that's on them. There were two OBs I think that round so I dunno what you're complaining about.

The CO didn't even order an evacuation,

These are essentially evacuation orders. Do you know what happened while I made these announcements? Marines started to evacuate, shocker.

I had to go down to the planet personally and order everyone on site to pack up and evac because the CO was threatening to have me jailed once I started countermanding his insane orders over the com.

Didn't threaten to jail you, also what were my insane orders? All I simply did was continue to deny we were losing. I didn't order anyone to do anything suicidal. You were also being HUGELY insubordinate and if I was any other CO you would've been BE'd on the spot. Constantly undermining a COs authority as an SO? Come on bro.



I should've blown your brains out the moment you said this.

After we evaced me and the survivors got together and, blaming the mission failure on the incompetence of the CO and XO and decided to remove them from command. So got pretty much all the survivors, like 15-20 guys, to march into the CIC and force the CO out of command. Now this all happened organically as a direct result of the COs RP, which I personally think is great, even if people were really salty when the round ended.

However, from what I've heard, according to the rules you need to ahelp a mutiny with at least 5 people and more often than not, the admins will deny your request. So my question is this. Under these or similar circumstances where the CO in charge is demonstrating obvious incompetence and lack of ability to command, is it justified to allow a mutiny to organically develop, or are you supposed to quell it regardless of peoples feelings and the nature of its development simply because the rules say otherwise?

If the answer is the later, then what constitutes a viable mutiny?

You were in perfect right to mutiny, you just need to ahelp saying you're going to do it so the admins are prepared for combat logs.


That's all

[Survivor]

The salt from this round was on an unreachable level. Honestly, though people were pissed off over complete Bullshit.

[SolubleWhenWet]

Because looking through my 2 hour footage of the round

dang, the dedication to cover his own ass when people talk some shit

[jackrkazi]

dang, the dedication to cover his own ass when people talk some shit

I'm always amazed at the amount of stuff some people save just to cover their asses over an RP job, its just a game guys

[ImHereToHelp]

I'm always amazed at the amount of stuff some people save just to cover their asses over an RP job, its just a game guys

I didnt like how you made up stuff to make your case look better.

This is about appropriate times to mutiny yet the majority of the OP was shitting on me.

[jackrkazi]

You were in perfect right to mutiny, you just need to ahelp saying you're going to do it so the admins are prepared for combat logs.

If you agree I was perfectly in the right to mutiny, why are you getting so salty over me being insubordinate and throwing down this massive wall of saved info just prove a point? I'm not angry that you RPed that way, I just wanted to get some other opinions on when its appropriate to mutiny considering it doesn't happen often and is a ban-able offense in the wrong situation.

Edit for above comment:
Well to preface your information, while yes the CO gets bombarded with info, I never heard you issue any specific orders to any departments throughout the round in regards to requests for support. Also there were only TWO active SOs, of which I was one, and each of us was basically managing two squads. If you have all this chat data, then when you go back over it you'll see I was constantly yelling at engineering to reload the OB and never got a single response from them or the Req officer after the first half hour or so of the OP once shit hit the fan.

Also you should preface that by the time you issued that evac "order", I was already down on the planet ordering everyone on site to get on the DS because we'd lost Hydro and the Road and you were still telling everyone that everything was fine. I'll admit, you never ordered any additional attacks after the first, but you never rescinded your original orders either or ordered retreats to Hydro or Nexus, which basically meant SLs were continually sending their guys back to caves in adherence with your original orders. I should know, I was watching the frontline the whole time through the squad cams.

Also in regards to my own insubordination, I ordered everyone to Evac once we lost Hydro and were getting pushed on the road and you immediately countermanded that and told everyone to stay where they were even though practically all our frontline units were combat ineffective at that point. I only started being insub once it seemed apparent that everyone planetside was going to die and you weren't doing anything about it.

Sorry if the original info I gave wasn't 100% accurate but I don't record my entire game sessions.

[Survivor]

I'm just putting my opinion out there, I don't think it's "Covering your ass" if you just take information from a recorded round. It's not like he planned for this. And also, as ImHereToHelp said, it's pretty scummy to make up false information to get your point across. He did his job, and people got overly salty because he put a twist to it.

[jackrkazi]

I'm just putting my opinion out there, I don't think it's "Covering your ass" if you just take information from a recorded round. It's not like he planned for this. And also, as ImHereToHelp said, it's pretty scummy to make up false information to get your point across. He did his job, and people got overly salty because he put a twist to it.

Except I didn’t make any of this up, I may have exaggerated a few details and if you look at his rebuttal, besides the part where I said he threatened to jail me ( he might not have outright threatened jail, but he did threaten to sic the MPs on me) he pretty much confirms everything else I said.

Also people got salty for the express reason that his RP entailed him breaking down and NOT doing his job, which is why we mutinied.


As for my points, what did I make up?

“Spreading misinformation and denying actual info when it appeared”

He consistently refused to acknowledge either of us SOs when we reported losses and actively countermanded our orders to conserve troops by ordering retreats in order to maintain his RP.

“Continually ordering attacks”
I’ll admit he didn’t order subseqent attacks, but he never changed his original orders to advance to the caves, so in essence he was commanding the SLs and any new players to continue attacking by not changing his standing orders.

“Refused to acknowledge our requests for support”

Admittedly this falls on the Engi/Req departments and the POs. But it is the COs job to ensure the supply lines stay open if the departments aren’t doing their jobs. He should have been in constant contact with Ned, req, and engineering during the op and obviously wasn’t with at least two of those.

“Did not order an evac”

Again, yes he did, only at the last possible second when it was already redundant and both the XO and myself had gone down to the planet to command evac onsite and people were already scrambling aboard the DS.

Update for below VV:
He only gave half-way decent orders once his command staff basically gave up on him and went down to take matters into their own hands. By the time he reversed all of this the damage had already been done and there was no going back. He may as well have not even given those orders at all because by the time he did they didn’t even matter

Also I don’t know if anyone else has made a fuss about this, but as far as I know no one is calling for him to lose his whitelist.

He has become a meme though, the leader of the infamous 0 casualty mission

[Survivor]

As for my points, what did I make up?

“Spreading misinformation and denying actual info when it appeared”

He consistently refused to acknowledge either of us SOs when we reported losses and actively countermanded our orders to conserve troops by ordering retreats in order to maintain his RP.

“Continually ordering attacks”
I’ll admit he didn’t order subseqent attacks, but he never changed his original orders to advance to the caves, so in essence he was commanding the SLs and any new players to continue attacking by not changing his standing orders.

For one, which you admitted, said that he called for your arrest when he didn't. Another point you made up was that he didn't tell the marines to evacuate. If you are evacuating to the Alamo, you are obviously not attacking, so he DID call off his assaults. The misinformation is completely fine, but I don't like the fact that people (Not only you) were making up false information, and actually wanting to get rid of this guy's whitelist.

[waswar]

It's just a bunch of unnecessary red tape. The Commander's whitelist should not be removed, he was an interesting persona, and it was rather entertaining to observe his fallibility by simply looking at the crew monitoring system and counting the dead marines.

For all the punishments doled out for very wishy-washy so-called "griefing", this actually seems to be a case where the administrators are defending a Commander doing their own bout of griefing. Obviously, looking at for example Adinah's case, the administrators need to either lighten up and allow wishy-washy situations and instead let roleplay determine what occurs, or just say it's not allowed in general, and apply it to a case like this Commander's. It's very inconsistent. If the same action can get two different opinions, you can not expect players to avoid getting banned, because they frankly do not know what is okay.

On this topic, the administrators should have seen that popular sentiment was heavily against the Commander, and allowed the mutiny right off the bat. This red tape nonsense where suddenly tens of marines have to stand still and wait for approval and basically get mowed down by aliens is just stupid. Either the administrator who stopped this is blind, wasn't paying attention, or just wanted to stir up nonsense to get marine players into trouble. If it's obvious that a mutiny is justified and has the right amount of people, why not cut them some slack and expedite the process instead of getting in the way of roleplay for no reason?

[jackrkazi]

It's just a bunch of unnecessary red tape. The Commander's whitelist should not be removed, he was an interesting persona, and it was rather entertaining to observe his fallibility by simply looking at the crew monitoring system and counting the dead marines.

For all the punishments doled out for very wishy-washy so-called "griefing", this actually seems to be a case where the administrators are defending a Commander doing their own bout of griefing. Obviously, looking at for example Adinah's case, the administrators need to either lighten up and allow wishy-washy situations and instead let roleplay determine what occurs, or just say it's not allowed in general, and apply it to a case like this Commander's. It's very inconsistent. If the same action can get two different opinions, you can not expect players to avoid getting banned, because they frankly do not know what is okay.

On this topic, the administrators should have seen that popular sentiment was heavily against the Commander, and allowed the mutiny right off the bat. This red tape nonsense where suddenly tens of marines have to stand still and wait for approval and basically get mowed down by aliens is just stupid. Either the administrator who stopped this is blind, wasn't paying attention, or just wanted to stir up nonsense to get marine players into trouble. If it's obvious that a mutiny is justified and has the right amount of people, why not cut them some slack and expedite the process instead of getting in the way of roleplay for no reason?

The admins actually didn’t try to stop the mutiny but they did get a little peeved afterwards that I didn’t ahelp. Even so, I agree, having to ahelp for a mutiny when you’ve got 19 guys ready to go and the Xenos are on their way doesn’t make much sense.

Admins should either allow spontaneous mutinies based on RP or just ban mutinities and punish mutuniable behavior themselves.