MP Whitelist, Council & Overhaul please

[Enigmachine]

So in the thread, The problem with roleplaying in Colonial Marines, there was some talk about clamping down on PFC shenanigans IC'ly from some users whose opinions I respect a lot.

Emphasis on IC'ly.

I main MP. Therefore, if there's talk of hammering on PFC's for misbehavior, then it's going to involve me if the ideas are tried out. So I got to thinking about this notion of clamping down on PFC shittery/memery with the goal of improving the server's RP from my MP perspective.

And my considered response to the idea is simply, "no." Not with the way the MP department works right now on the server. The role is already cancerAIDS a lot of the time for a laundry list of reasons, the worst of which I'll discuss below. I believe other MP regulars likely have similar feelings.

I'm making this thread rather than keeping all this to myself because I can easily envision changes that would make me comfortable with being relied on to crack down on bad behavior IC'ly.

1: MP Whitelist: We should have this already to be honest. For 2 major reasons. After those I'll briefly detail how I think the whitelist should look.

a: MP quality control. I myself should've never, ever been allowed to play MP when I did. I didn't even know how to take people's stuff off them to get their oranges on. Now all my notes stem from me not grasping how procedure functions, what the different charges look like IC, how NJP's function, etc. I've seen others have an awful time IC and OOC too because they tried playing it without having a grasp how the role functions. I also think a lot of the issues with perceptions of MP's stems from baldfucks misusing the tools. People throwing flashbangs like confetti, for example, should never be happening outside a mutiny. Same goes for not knowing every up-to-date charge in ML.

There's a second point to this quality-control point: legitimately griefy, malicious MP's need to have a chance to be weeded out before even getting at the role. Nothing grinds my gears harder than hearing another MP over comms long for a chance to blow away another marine with lethals or get to use pepper spray on another person. Fuck those people. I don't want them anywhere near me or in one of the most dangerous departments on the ship. Let alone the type of shit who will try and entrap players.

I think that if an MP whitelist was implemented then not only would current MP mains feel comfortable with expectations, there would be a higher chance for the higher-RP standards to improve overall.

b: Staff confidence in MP players. I currently perceive that it's quite low and that this is a problem. I've also seen some staff-played MP's act in ways that, from my perspective that's molded from being bwoinked/talking to staff about how to play the role, I would expect a bwoink if I behaved so. For example doing things like highly aggressive, wordless stuns and being execution hungry. And my frank opinion is that these players feel comfortable doing this because of their staff position. I'm not asserting corruption or other malice here; I believe this outcome happens because the staff players don't feel the constant need to CYA (Cover Your Ass) as hard as non-staff MP's.

I hope that if MP's get a whitelist then other MP's would start to feel similarly confident and unafraid of OOC repercussions as staff MP's do. Because currently I constantly think about if what I'm doing/about to do will get a bwoink, so much so that it fucks with my ability to do the role's duties. I mean for example the other day: there was a small riot on the first drop on the Alamo and I was the only MP there. I had 2 flashbang on me but didn't throw any because I was so terrified of being bwoinked and told that I didn't announce the arrest, or that it was overboard or something similar, and then getting jbanned or server banned over it. So I ahelped and from what I saw staff handled it OOC'ly. But an IC solution to that was fully conceivable.

Furthermore, I believe that anyone who has played MP extensively knows that there are loads of gray areas. For example, when can someone be stunned without warning, how should ML be applied to civilians exactly, and when do others' shenanigans become OOC issues for staff and something that they should just F1 about rather than try to handle as an MP. I think that if MP's are whitelisted then staff will feel comfortable with letting MP's handle these gray areas themselves.

2: MP Council: I've already seen it said that MP's an HRP role, and if I get my way and a whitelist is implemented then they deserve a council like the other 3 existing whitelists already have.

I think that it would help with consistency in rulings, and therefore help with that player confidence. They would know things are a certain way and that whether they're bwoinked or not won't depend on the staff at the moment's opinion or mood. Because I repeatedly have been given contradictory information from different staff at different times. That shouldn't be happening; not for a role that's kept under such scrutiny and is so hated. It's just a breeding ground for validhunting. If there was a council (and assuming that implementing a council would ALSO be accompanied by a whitelist; it's both or neither) then players could trust that there would be a good amount of time and calmness to handle whether something was done wrong or if it's a gray area issue that needs a resolution.

3: MP Overhaul: This actually awfully short. All I want is for the CMP position to be audited and for line MP's to get ID access to the brig armory.

The first is because after the CO rework I perceive the CMP as just being a shit, unnecessary position. There's no other department head more likely to get into a scrap with the CO than the CMP, just for doing their job. Currently CMP is just a reskinned MP who can get into the brig armory. I've never once seen one work with the XO to get an execution rolling. And honestly, why would a CMP be highly proactive when the likely outcome is just the CO overruling them and throwing in an insult. Personally since the rework I've looked to the CO as my boss, 'cause that's just how it is at the moment. Yeah, I listen and act when the CMP says, "go here," or, "go receive survs off DSX," but on the really important issues I wait for the CO to rule on things. Because why bother with what the CMP says when the CO is liable to notice the red-comms channel and just assert his dominance in a case?

The second issue is just what I said; if MP's are whitelisted and given a council, then it is reasonable to let them have access to the brig armory as they see fit. Even now whenever I have needed crowd-control gear I have never had access to it because it is locked away. And when I do need it, CIC is never fast enough to let me in via Code Red/shutter opening, and the CMP's personal opening the doors/closets is just as inefficient. I think MP's, especially with a whitelist, should be trusted to, for example, grab a riot helmet and place it in one of the rooms next to briefing in case they need it to use flashbangs with.
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So to summarize, if staff is getting ideas of using MP's to handle shit behavior more proactively in the interests of RP, then with the way the MP department is now they need to either forget about it or just play the role themselves. Because as of now that would be to ask non-staff MP's to put themselves into an awful catch 22 of being expected to be more proactive, intolerant and aggressive while also expecting OOC punishments for doing so. I for one would rather abandon the role wholesale if that was done.

If, however, that was accompanied by all three of my above suggestions, then it would be great. I really think it would be. I think the quality of everyone's experience with the MP department would be better and the original interest in heightening RP would be helped.

Ending here, I just want to emphasize that I believe that all 3 of my suggestions would need to be implemented together, because alone they risk being counterproductive.

What does everyone else think?

[Enigmachine]

I forgot to add in the original post: I will write the rough draft whitelist questionnaire if there's interest in this. I think that such ought to have at least one question featuring a situation with each crime, with a few false positives thrown in, plus a couple to test the MP applicant's understanding of the CoC. I take suggestions on this. Anyone got any?

If anyone thinks that I'm angling for a position on any hypothetical council, forget about it. I'm too busy moving forward with becoming a Lieutenant in the US Army to commit the amount of time that that would deserve.

[CABAL]

I hope story will not be required for MP whitelist...

[Enigmachine]

I hope story will not be required for MP whitelist...

I would be against requiring that.

[Build_R_]

All whitelists so far are mostly privilege roles for people that are well-known/good roleplayers though, a more fun role to play after going through the process of applying. With MPs I don't see that kind of incentive, why bother going through an application process where you have a medium chance of being denied if the result is only to be a role that'll be mugged or beaten up in a dark alleyway by the marines?

I just think a whitelist is a really extreme answer to a problem that's already been solved or has other solutions. If people are acting poorly in a certain role you don't restrict access to the role, you need to control the stigma attached to the role, which has already been done with a clearer, fairer marine law.

[Awesomesauce935]

I think an application based whitelist is not needed for MP, since the role basically amounts to keeping Req line and briefing civil, processing the occasional survivor, watching the CL for crimes against humanity, keeping medbay from getting high, and responding to whatever marine shenanigans the overwatch officers call out.

Maybe any accounts under 1-2 months old should be blacklisted from it, as a cleaner solution.

[Butlerblock]

if MP's should get a whitelist then queen's should get a whitelist.

[Norwest]

Aside from all the arguments presented above, I'd be in favor of an MP whitelist for the additional confidence it'd give from non-MP Marines. As it stands, if I encounter a Predator, I can expect them to put in a modicum of roleplaying at the bare minimum. That confidence in basic standards means that I'm going to actually take the time to RP and interact with them, because I can expect them to return the favor.

MPs? Count yourself lucky if you /don't/ get Shitler McPowertripper on yer ass, doubly so if they even bother to speak during an arrest. Making the role whitelisted would give non-MP Marines a good deal more confidence that the guy they're talking to isn't just itching to grief them for kicks.

[Garrison]

Make it so only moderators/mentors can be MPs. They are already enforcing the rules. Might as well take it a step further.

Otherwise. I'd prefer not to see a whitelist for MP's. It's not as though they have the potential to break the game like irresponsible Captains and preds can. Which is why they have a whitelist to begin with.

[Enigmachine]

Aside from all the arguments presented above, I'd be in favor of an MP whitelist for the additional confidence it'd give from non-MP Marines. As it stands, if I encounter a Predator, I can expect them to put in a modicum of roleplaying at the bare minimum. That confidence in basic standards means that I'm going to actually take the time to RP and interact with them, because I can expect them to return the favor.

MPs? Count yourself lucky if you /don't/ get Shitler McPowertripper on yer ass, doubly so if they even bother to speak during an arrest. Making the role whitelisted would give non-MP Marines a good deal more confidence that the guy they're talking to isn't just itching to grief them for kicks.

This. It is infuriating every time I interact with someone who doesn't know me, because they often blanket assume that because I have red clothes I must be trying to wreck their round.

EDIT: To everyone arguing that MP shouldn't be held to the same high requirements as CO/Synth/Pred, I agree. I don't think that if it's whitelisted that it should have that high of a standard. That would be crazy. A simple as heck questionnaire would be it for line MP, and maybe a second, harder one for CMP a month after the first's acceptance.

A story particularly would be stupid. It would reach the self-parody level that pred/synth is already at where everyone comes and shits on it saying "generic, unoriginal playstyle" because how many ways are there even to play the role?

[Enigmachine]

To give some context to the usual MP routine, here's some random snippets from the ongoing game that was happening as I typed up my previous post:

"The MPs want to arrest me because I fed someone a cheeseburger."
"They really are fucking bored."

I didn't get any good moments from it, but there was also the fun part where they arrested every survivor who made it to the FOB and tried to permabrig them, until CO intervention forced them to back off. There was also another little mess involving them harassing the researchers into fighting back and holding out in the research area, along with the usual "arrest for throwing eggs" and the like. There were far too many MPs running around to combat the /zero/ major crimes which occurred, and when no serious issues happened, they created their own.

Note that none of this is abnormal, doubly so in high-pop games. There are no "legit" antags such as traitors or changelings to fight, and once the usual mess of Marines going off-ship is complete, there's precious little to do other than to cryo or harass people for minor (or imaginary) crimes. Whitelisting the MP role would cut down on the total number of MPs running around, and I would argue that's a good thing.

Why are you talking about an ONGOING ROUND?

Furthermore, all this shit you're saying is shit 'cause you don't know what you're talking about. Like, not only did you literally commit a text-book crime by forcefeeding someone I'd stunned and cuffed (i.e. you're a bullying thug), you don't know what was happening with the CONVICT survivors that the CMP worked to set loose.

[Build_R_]

Make it so only moderators/mentors can be MPs. They are already enforcing the rules. Might as well take it a step further.

Otherwise. I'd prefer not to see a whitelist for MP's. It's not as though they have the potential to break the game like irresponsible Captains and preds can. Which is why they have a whitelist to begin with.

I entirely oppose this idea, piling a tough job onto people who already have a really tough job is a poorly thought out plan, why should people who deal with OOC issues also be the only people to deal with IC issues? A mod/mentor acting as an MP will have similar ideas about marine law to anyone else who plays MP.

[Enigmachine]

I entirely oppose this idea, piling a tough job onto people who already have a really tough job is a poorly thought out plan, why should people who deal with OOC issues also be the only people to deal with IC issues? A mod/mentor acting as an MP will have similar ideas about marine law to anyone else who plays MP.

I agree. Moderating on up is fatiguing from what staff has told me, and I don't have time to ever apply for it myself but I don't mind MP.

[solidfury7]

Rules need relaxing on MPs and they need to be given additional things to do.

Personally, I'd give MPs the ability to overwatch. It'd free up some Lieutenants for additional things, it'd keep MPs engaged all round (in a constructive way which doesn't involve going nazi) and I'd personally allow them the ability to escort the researcher planetside under specific conditions.

The reasons MPs are harsh is usually because they're bored or bald. We can amend that easily with the above resolution.

But that is my two cents as a CMP main.

[Norwest]

Why are you talking about an ONGOING ROUND?

Furthermore, all this shit you're saying is shit 'cause you don't know what you're talking about. Like, not only did you literally commit a text-book crime by forcefeeding someone I'd stunned and cuffed (i.e. you're a bullying thug), you don't know what was happening with the CONVICT survivors that the CMP worked to set loose.

>Complains about talking about an ongoing round
>Does the same thing

...right.

I would agree that the CMP did do their job well, but leaving aside the specifics*, there were a lot of MPs and not much for them to actually /do/. We see the same phenomenon with police, especially with over-funded and under-worked departments in low-crime suburban areas: when there aren't many crackheads to chase around, the cops spend their days chasing after teenagers who've done such heinous crimes as "using skateboards on public property." The paradigm isn't fun for either cops nor their future perps, and it's one that I see frequently happening in-game.


*to avoid giving details on an ongoing game, and because the specifics aren't that relevant to the discussion here.

[Enigmachine]

Rules need relaxing on MPs and they need to be given additional things to do.

Personally, I'd give MPs the ability to overwatch. It'd free up some Lieutenants for additional things, it'd keep MPs engaged all round (in a constructive way which doesn't involve going nazi) and I'd personally allow them the ability to escort the researcher planetside under specific conditions.

The reasons MPs are harsh is usually because they're bored or bald. We can amend that easily with the above resolution.

But that is my two cents as a CMP main.

Yeah I'm open to other suggestions like this one. I've been given the task of escorting RSR's and CL's to the planet before and it makes for fun RP. I don't think people outside the MP department think about how to use us creatively which is too bad.

Don't forget, though, that I made this thread in the context of the other discussion about holding PFC's to higher standards and possibly using MP's to handle this IC'ly.

[Garrison]

I entirely oppose this idea, piling a tough job onto people who already have a really tough job is a poorly thought out plan, why should people who deal with OOC issues also be the only people to deal with IC issues? A mod/mentor acting as an MP will have similar ideas about marine law to anyone else who plays MP.

Yeah I realized the full extent of that after I read this response.

I think Solidfury has the right idea though. MP's need more things to do.

[Enigmachine]

I think that part of the 'not enough stuff to do' issue stems form few people wanting to RP with MP's, because right now MP is synonymous with 'likely to be a jerk.' It's partially an image issue. What CL wants, much less would ask for, an MP bodyguard if they think that they'll be valid-hunted the whole time?

[Norwest]

Rules need relaxing on MPs and they need to be given additional things to do.

Personally, I'd give MPs the ability to overwatch. It'd free up some Lieutenants for additional things, it'd keep MPs engaged all round (in a constructive way which doesn't involve going nazi) and I'd personally allow them the ability to escort the researcher planetside under specific conditions.

The reasons MPs are harsh is usually because they're bored or bald. We can amend that easily with the above resolution.

But that is my two cents as a CMP main.

Aye, that seems like a good idea. Aside from the issue of simple boredom, there's also the paradigm of poor interactions: about the only time Marines are likely to be interacting with MPs normally is when they're being arrested, searched, or questioned. If MPs had a means to /help/ Marines, much like real-life cops help through traffic control, providing security, and escorting people safely to a destination, there'd be much less of a reason to think "oh no not again" the moment you see a red beret.

[KennyTGuy]

Ive seen a suggestion about letting them go planetside to man the FOB like real MPs do, would solve the issue of FOB squad going awol every round but then again they do that for a reason, would MP players be interested in manning the FOB?

[CABAL]

Ive seen a suggestion about letting them go planetside to man the FOB like real MPs do, would solve the issue of FOB squad going awol every round but then again they do that for a reason, would MP players be interested in manning the FOB?

Isn't that better than running circles around Alamyer?

[Enigmachine]

Ive seen a suggestion about letting them go planetside to man the FOB like real MPs do, would solve the issue of FOB squad going awol every round but then again they do that for a reason, would MP players be interested in manning the FOB?

Yes.

[Garrison]

Ive seen a suggestion about letting them go planetside to man the FOB like real MPs do, would solve the issue of FOB squad going awol every round but then again they do that for a reason, would MP players be interested in manning the FOB?

If they could do that I'd definitely play MP. Heck maybe we could even justify having more MP slots available so there can be rotating shifts for fob/ship patrol.

[Grubstank]

I would totally be on board for an MP revamp, if it meant increased MP slots, and MPs stationed at the FOB.

[Cry of Wolves]

No on the whitelist, that's just stupid.
No on the council, never liked those.
Overhaul does sound decent though.