Marine rebalancing v1 Discussion Thread

[NethIafins]

Look at the subject, now look at the changelog.
Now back at the subject, now again at the changelog

Now post something

Changelog

► Show Spoiler

Neth Iafin updated:
If you see this line, this means this change is not permanent and being temporarily tested. Bugs and crashes may occur.
This is part one of weapon rebalancing.
Changed how stuff handled in backend on drop, unwielding, unzooming and movement.
Admins can now set human mobs to be competely immune to any stun weaponry. This should be helpful during antag events.
Slightly increased default and AP SMG bullet damage. SMG normal bullet deals more damage than AP one
Greatly increased penetration of all SMG AP and M41A AP.
Slightly increased default M41A rifle damage and speed. Normal rounds now deal more damage than AP and can be useful against low-armored opponents.
Greatly increased speed of M41A normal rifle rounds. Slightly decreased speed of SMG AP rounds. Greatly increased speed of M4RA hi-velo bullet.
Flak sniper bullets now explode when near hostile dealing part damage to nearby mobs. Flak sniper bullets now have bigger flak radius.
Scopes now don't provide buffs when not scoped in. Reduced damage falloff when scoping (depending on the scope type). Removed burst side debuff. Scopes now decreses accuracy when not scoping. Delay between shots is stronger when scoping.
Miniscopes now allow slow movement while still scoping if you are not using Rocket Launcher. Scope shift increased so you see more to the side. Rocket Launcher scoping now takes time and this action is visible to others.
Rifle, Revolver and SMG stocks now have much smaller increase in fire delay. They also increase accuracy, reduce recoil and scatter much stronger than before. However they slow you down when twohanded and apply debuffs on accuracy, recoil and scatter while using weapon single-handedly
Secondary weapons no longer receive buffs/debuffs to damage from original gun.
Bipod can now only be deployed on surfaces, and if you move it automatically retracts. Now, instead of what it did before, bipod reduces scatter on burst, increases accuracy and increases fire rate. When not deployed, bipod slows down fire rate a bit.
Bipod increases firing speed for M41AE2 even more than before turning it into portable mini-m56.
Before you had a chance to miss another human of your faction. Now an additional BIG chance to miss is given if that person of your faction is using WALK intent.
Buffed laser sight accuracy when using weapon one handed.
Increased range of underbarrel flamethrower by 1 tile. Requisitions now have few fuel tanks roundstart to spare.
Added collapsible m39 stock to requisitions. This stock can collapse in on itself removing most of the side-effects.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

Xeno's still feeling the pain from the general stat nerf months ago and now they're getting shredded too hard, especially true for Crusher. Mutations simply don't help enough because it's like 10% lmao.

[kastion]

Not even gonna waste my time, dont have the energy to argue with 40 players when none of the other xenos ever say shit. We had our week and a half of being on top time to go back to the bottom. Just waiting for the neuro and stuns to be removed so xeno will be no fun at all and I can quit playing.

[Survivor]

The marine steamroll was caused by the SMG buffs. Revert them and we are golden, right guys?

[JJG]

It feels like regular M41A Ammo is just a tad bit too much now. Perhaps the middle ground between what it was before and what it is now would be better. But generally, I really appreciate the M41A buff. It actually feels viable now

[TrollerNoob]

I don't think the massive buff to AP was needed, because it's still managing to out damage squishy castes such as T1s more than normal rounds. It was fine how it was.

[FGRSentinel]

Not sure why, but the test keeps breaking the changelog so it doesn't show up for me and the starting menus (Setup Character, Join USCM, etc) either never load or take forever to load. When I actually did get into the round, the "New Player Options" window stayed open and I had to leave and rejoin for it to go away.

Also, I got hit by two SMG bullets from a Medic clearing resin walls and had my leg broken. Not sure if this is how it used to be or what, but that's kind of extreme to me.

[Skrelo]

Considering their winrate is 65% currently, i wouldn't say they're suffering from it still. Also i've seen crushers become literally invincible from standard M41A ammo. (point blank with m41a even, also i'm talking about pre buff here). Altho the marines won most rounds in the 2/3 rounds today. I'd highly suggest testing it on high pop. Low pop is a pretty bad example for this since low pop usually has unrobust xenos. But from low pop experience, just give it some minor nerfs on some stats.

[MattAtlas]

I think it's funny people haven't noticed how warding queens are dying to literally 2 AP bursts non BC, and preds are dying to literally 3 AP bursts. Something's wrong here.

The buffs are good though. Xenos need to get used to the insane damage output that marines have, or they'll lose every test since a warrior gets his health halved in 1 normal rifle burst.

[Ranged66]

Shotgun stocks need a small tweak too. They are already godlike, but some people just don't realize that.

[NethIafins]

Updates for next test:
Buff to m41 penetration is removed
Buff to m39 AP penetration is lowered
Buff to m39 AP damage is removed
Scopes now give additional FF evasiveness when walking
Some other weapon attachments rebalancing

[CABAL]

Like benos like to say: "Let the other side to adjust to the new situation".
Drop 65% +/- 5% bullshit.

On the matter strictly to the changelog:
Why Bipods can't be deployed on window frames and tables that are not flipped? It's pain in the ass and simply illogical.

Flechette and shotguns overall didn't get anything sweet in terms of usefulness outside PB. Flechette needs slowdown mechanic on all xenos and Slug need this on T3's. This is proper sidegrade. Without it, flechettes being something that I have to pay 15 points, or stay in Req isn't beneficial at all.

Shotgun stock should also be changed a bit.

[Drevenshekel]

thought the smartgun might get a buff

[NethIafins]

Like benos like to say: "Let the other side to adjust to the new situation".
Drop 65% +/- 5% bullshit.

Benos != Developers

On the matter strictly to the changelog:
Why Bipods can't be deployed on window frames and tables that are not flipped? It's pain in the ass and simply illogical.

they never worked on those surfaces before. This is plainly a bug that we got from old times now it's just more visible. I will fix that in time

Flechette and shotguns overall didn't get anything sweet in terms of usefulness outside PB. Flechette needs slowdown mechanic on all xenos and Slug need this on T3's. This is proper sidegrade. Without it, flechettes being something that I have to pay 15 points, or stay in Req isn't beneficial at all.

I was not expecting to do shotgun buffs this time

Shotgun stock should also be changed a bit.

Can't come up with anything nice

[David Stormwell]

I Think the Paratrooper Stock is A Fine Add, I Don't mind it being as Rare as a BC Because if its Folded you can put it in the m39 Belt.

Other then that I don't have much else to say

[Boersgard]

I'll share my short experience with it:

Dropped in Alamo on LV-624, LZ1 immediately attacked by xenos and overrun when we landed, running firefight on alamo itself with queen and aliens around the east/north/south sides.

I had an M41A equipped with a miniscope, vgrip, extended barrel, and stock.

The miniscope's line of sight is AMAZING. You actually feel like you have a ranged advantage having a rifle instead of basically fighting at point blank. I immediately macro'd this to shift+f for combat use before drop, but didn't really get to make much use of it because we got overrun in short order.

Accuracy with the M41A was great, it finally felt like I could hit what I was aiming at.

Single shot was worthless. There's too much firing delay on single shot to do any real damage with it, and since I was getting surrounded by xenos at 1-5 tile ranges, I quickly switched to burst fire

Burst fire, unlike single shot, had good damage output. I never fired at anything further than 3-4 tiles away, but while scoped in and double handed I was burst firing and hitting every bullet on aliens within 4 tiles that were making no attempts at juking (coming straight at me). The aliens I was engaged by (with another marine beside me) in particular were a warrior, lurker, and defender. The warrior hung back a bit behind cover while the lurker fought the other marine and the defender engaged and got some slashes in me, I put two or three bursts into the defender, it didn't die but it did immediately run away instead of ripping me apart. Then the warrior tried to attack - it didn't lunge or I'd have died, and instead I put two bursts into it, and it also ran away. By this point I was in/almost in paincrit from the damage the defender and warrior had done, tried running back to more marines but instead ran into the queen and she screeched me. I then got dragged off and stuffed into a nest alongside about a dozen other marines (very impressive nesting/captures by xenos, almost never see something like this) and eventually bursted.

So my experience was that the M41 was actually finally worth using. I did not feel like I had peashooter anymore. My shots were accurate, and I did enough damage to unrobust xenos to get them off me. With support of other marines, the aliens might've even died. Had the warrior or defender used any ability to stun/disarm me instead of blindly rushing for slashes I wouldn't have even fired off a shot before dying/being captured.

It's not a definitive experience, but it's all the testing I've had with it.

To recap:
M41A + Miniscope + V. Grip + Ext. Barrel + Skeleton Stock
Wield delay was slow but tolerable
Movement was slow but tolerable
Miniscope is really nice
Burst fire damage output was actually great
Accuracy was good (at 3-4 tiles, did not shoot further)
Single-shot rate of fire was garbage, single shot damage output was garbage. Not worth using at all.
I still died/lost and didn't kill anything, but it felt fun and not like I was completely useless with a peashooter do-nothing weapon

Recommendation:
Adjust fire delay on single shot with the above attachments so it doesn't feel worthless. I was getting out about as many single shot rounds as I could burst fires. It didn't feel right/good.
Damage seemed fine on my end, but I don't know how it compares when there's 3-5 marines working together. It definitely put more onus on the aliens not facerolling into me like complete retards in straight lines for a slash and kill.

[carlarc]

overall single shot is just almost never worth it, except for cases like shooting eggs, huggers, or resin holes. it should be buffed to have its DPS on par with burstfire IMO, they'll fit niches of burst doing more damage at once and scaring xenos, with singlefire being better for a push to never stop shooting

[KingKire]

In my personaly opinion, I think were suffering from damage and health creep, and should re-evaluate the baseline states of where everything should be.

I think i'd be nice to have a vision statement about where this game is headed (i.e, We want marines to do X, and then overall Y happen, vice versa aliens).

I'd personally rather have aliens be weaker, weapons be weaker, and have more aliens to fight (with quicker rollouts for aliens as well, jump in and play attitude), then having tougher aliens, with stronger weapons, with less aliens to fight (with a slower, build yourself up over time attitude)

Flags:
I like the addition of more Mob Flags for admins and event organizers to use, so that way its easier to have more customizable/unique scenarios that can be put out quicker and with less headache of reinventing the wheel everytime a custom event is launched.

Flak:
Havent seen flak in action yet, so holdin thoughts.

Scopes:
- Didnt know scopes provided buffs when not zoomed in, that sounds like good code cleanup, because that doesnt sound like intuitive use.
- The miniscopes are interesting in that slow movement is something unique yet fills a niche of why take the miniscope. Unsure if it will be enough to pass the threshold.

Secondary attachments:
Didnt know secondary weapons still had buffs/debuffs from attachments, i guess thats good code cleanup


One handed:
I honestly think the problem with why people dont use laser sight/Gyro weapons etc. is because the screen shake from using the weapons is pretty bad. It might be an interesting test to decrease the screen shake of weapons one handed, rather than buff the attachments used with them. You might see an overall increase in one-handed users without needing to buff any stat value.

Flamer tanks:
I think the Fuel tanks for requistion is a godsend, thught about adding it to the gitlab wishlist, but didnt know if others felt the same way. Its really hard on Low-pop to get a squad leader, which made it harder to pick up the Mini-flamer, which i think is a pretty solid underattachment.

M41a:
Ill have to try out the buffs, but first impression, i think just increasing the speed the bullet moves is a great way to give a buff that doesnt just offer straight damage, allowing for more hits on runners or lurkers, the m41a's harder targets to deal with.

Stocks:
My personal opinion with stocks is that they should slow down how fast you can draw the gun, as opposed to how fast you move, and be primarily a recoil control component to a gun.
Its interesting that they are essentially, the go to attachment if your two handing, but the anti-attachment if your one-handing.
- Not sure how i feel about the movement slowdown, as i think its important for squads to be moving together instead of slowly splitting apart. Having the same overall base speed helps with that (with the SMG and one handed users acting as quick reaction movement)
- Not sure how i feel about the debuffs for one handed, since i've honestly felt if i had to one-hand a weapon, using a stock would be a boon since you can tuck your shoulder to add support.

Bipods:
nice to see that they deploy everywhere, hopefully people will pick it up more instead of niche uses only. I felt crazy that to be useful with the bipod, i had to take a wrench and table set in my backpack before.

[CABAL]

Can't come up with anything nice

For shotguns with stock:
Wielded: Faster rate of fire, but slower movement.
One Handed: Slower rate of fire.

Bam. Sweet little buff that doesn't buff PB too much.

Bipods:
nice to see that they deploy everywhere, hopefully people will pick it up more instead of niche uses only. I felt crazy that to be useful with the bipod, i had to take a wrench and table set in my backpack before.

It's not changed (buffed) at all. I guess this line "Bipod can now only be deployed on surfaces..." is worded more poorly than my own posts. You can deploy bipod ONLY on cades and flipped tables.

[TrollerNoob]

For shotguns with stock:
Wielded: Faster rate of fire, but slower movement.
One Handed: Slower rate of fire.

Bam. Sweet little buff that doesn't buff PB too much.

I would rather not have the M37 be Tac-Shotty lite. How wouldn't it buff PB too much? You're literally firing PBs that much faster, killing xenos that much faster.

[CABAL]

I would rather not have the M37 be Tac-Shotty lite. How wouldn't it buff PB too much? You're literally firing PBs that much faster, killing xenos that much faster.

But you are moving slower. Way slower, having way less chances to PB more xenos. You can try to get lucky and PB xeno that is charging at you. That is fine. What you can't do is to run to the alien and PB it faster, becouse one handed would have slower firerate. You have to PB, wield and then PB slighty faster. If xeno let marine with armor and wielding a shotgun to chase him and catch to PB range, then he earned that faster PB.

[TrollerNoob]

But you are moving slower. Way slower, having way less chances to PB more xenos. You can try to get lucky and PB xeno that is charging at you. That is fine. What you can't do is to run to the alien and PB it faster, becouse one handed would have slower firerate. You have to PB, wield and then PB slighty faster. If xeno let marine with armor and wielding a shotgun to chase him and catch to PB range, then he earned that faster PB.

Instead, the xeno is PB'd, the marine moves a single tile closer and PBs it again. It's not that hard to imagine, Tac Shotty juggles xenos consistently before they move a single tile from the stun.

[CABAL]

Instead, the xeno is PB'd, the marine moves a single tile closer and PBs it again. It's not that hard to imagine, Tac Shotty juggles xenos consistently before they move a single tile from the stun.

In this one situation where xeno is smart enough to charge head on at marine without any means to stun, or outlive PB.
Sentinels and all spiters can stun. Warrior can grab, runner and lurker can pounce. Rav and other T3's are immune to PB (They only got DMG, without stuns). Pretty fair in my book. Thanks to decreased firerate on unwielded gun, marine that was stunned for milisecond have decreased chance to PB twice.
I don't see argues that stock makes PB'ing too hard becouse firerate is decreased, yet increase is that a big deal. "It's only 10%! It's nothing!"
Nobody will take Wooden Stock otherwise, while stock on other weapons started to be decent enough.

Or made it a separate attachement: "Threaded Barrel". Shotgun can no longer shoot buckshot, but stat increase in everything.

[TrollerNoob]

In this one situation where xeno is smart enough to charge head on at marine without any means to stun, or outlive PB.
Sentinels and all spiters can stun. Warrior can grab, runner and lurker can pounce. Rav and other T3's are immune to PB (They only got DMG, without stuns). Pretty fair in my book. Thanks to decreased firerate on unwielded gun, marine that was stunned for milisecond have decreased chance to PB twice.
I don't see argues that stock makes PB'ing too hard becouse firerate is decreased, yet increase is that a big deal. "It's only 10%! It's nothing!"
Nobody will take Wooden Stock otherwise, while stock on other weapons started to be decent enough.

Or made it a separate attachement: "Threaded Barrel". Shotgun can no longer shoot buckshot, but stat increase in everything.

You make it seem like it's impossible to land a PB. A lurker/runner/rav misses its pounce, a Warrior misses its lunge and it goes on c/d. Aka any regular situation in which you get PB'd ingame. Don't make it seem like getting PB'd as a xeno is unimaginable. My point still stands.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

You don't even need to risk a PB on faster stuff like Runner/Lurker. Just a normal shot to stun the xeno first so that other can pile the damage on works too, and you can still chain a PB after the stun as well depending on stun ticks.