Slaves and Surgery... Make your case.

[apophis775]

Talking with the dev team, and the general staff about recent "developments" we are working towards some Rule changes for preds.

So, I figured I'd give you a chance to DEFEND the specific actions we are looking at limiting:



1. Slaves
Historically, Yautja don't take slaves. They have a "slave" caste of their own population, but not of others. Slaves are considered a weakness (as is being captured or defeated). In fact, within lore, there are squads of Yautja who "maintain" hunting grounds by blasting weak and sick animals to strengthen the herd. This is considered "Menial" work and no trophies or meat is taken. Typically, the body is just left to rot, as they don't believe the prey was honorable.

Personally, I am 100% against Preds taking "slaves". They are honorable hunters, not slave traders.


2. Surgery
Yautja, do not have a "medical" caste or real "medical" treatments. To the point that, a "maimed" hunter who can no longer hunt, is "enslaved' on the homeworld to work in menial labor. Wounds are treated by Preds themselves only (such as, removing shrapnel with their knife, which is enabled) or using healing kits (we replaced with the crystal).

I do not believe Preds should be performing any surgery, as their pretty much ONLY main weakness is Larva/Broken bones.

If you are a pred and your chest/groin is broken, that should be your signal to attack the marines or aliens relentlessly and die in glorious combat (while using healing crystals to handle internal wounds). Remember, the GOAL of all Yautja, is to be honorable enough in life, to be accepted to the great hunt in death. Getting surgery by lesser beings, is pretty much the LEAST honorable thing you can do.




SO, Know you know my points (and many of the Devs), so I'll give you guys a few days to rebuttal and give us a reason why either of these things should be allowed.

[Scrat505]

Okay so.

My idea for taking slaves is that although our Yautja should (and do) follow the lore closely, I believe there must be some gameplay and story segregation for sake of fun. I personally believe that a Yautja's involvement should be fun for the prey you interact with and not just yourself. I've bumped into a few players that, after death by me, lamented in deadchat that they could not be a slave, meaning that there IS a portion that would actually like to play this role. While yes, in lore Yautja never took human slaves, it opens up a new opportunity for roleplay here, especially for survivors, who are the usual pick for slaves since they don't have comrades in a squad to yell for help at, considering that survivors usually just die, or get rescued then go SSD from boredom on the Sulaco. I believe that a bit of a bend in lore for the sake of more fun for everyone involved.

For Surgery it's the opposite, however. I believe it should not be permitted and that a broken bone in a critical spot means its time to rush the enemy for glory and honor.

[Sarah_U.]

1.
I know and see your point for slaves, although I still think it's for roleplay reasons that it is done and to differ from the usual almost murderboning poster we're pictured as.
I don't personally take slaves, as I pretty much put them into arenas when I do so and try to afterward train and prove their own honor in combat constantly untill they die. Which in my opinion, is a different variation of enslavement, but also works as an alternative that should be considered as 'okay' in most scenarios.
FURTHERMORE, I'd like to simply end this point with the fact that CM is NOT the alien franchise, and the lore is altered, so any changes done may be done to improve the server imo (I'm taking this one from several discussions in the past, including the ones about IBs).

2.
I'm entirely for surgery, untill the time preds can personally tend to their own wounds. We get damaged SO EASELY it's super dirty to even get 1% of brain damage and go blind since we couldn't fix it. If the medical kit comes in and fix most of the problems we can find, then I'm sure nobody will have to ask for surgery.
Although, one point I'd like to direct to is that I ENTIRELY condemn ANY preds going for an human surgery. It's Bad Blood behavior and should be dealt with the outmost frown imo (I'd actually have a chance to subdue or kill the yautja in question. Any yautjas cooperating in such a way can be seen like the traitor in AvP:Extinction where he was swiftly killed for his crimes)
Last point here, a predator in such a state that he can't see and can't do his own threatment can't even fight for his honor as he doesn't know what he's fighting and risk to throw away the technology he has. Broken brain TOO OFTEN cause delayed blindness and it kicks in pretty quick, so if there's no way to fix that I'm in for asking for help so that I can resume my hunt and die/hunt honorably still.

[Monoo]

We see predators in film and other media performing surgery on THEMSELVES on multiple different occasions.

The logic of "breaking a bone means it's time to go out in a blaze of glory" doesn't work for me. Not only will the broken bone severely hinder your ability to do damage, and hence to die a glorious death, but throwing yourself away as soon as one occurs (which is pretty common) ruins any ongoing RP.

"I was continuing my hunt of you, young ooman, but then random hunter #27 broke my chest. Time to perform a mind wipe on myself, activate my self-destruct protocol, and charge into the hive/FOB dual wielding katanas"

Because of this, I'd argue both to allow preds to do surgery, but to also add a small Yautja operation kit, like the one seen in the original movie. A simple click-to-use item that takes several minutes, but fixes broken bones or internal damage.

--

As for slaves, it doesn't matter to me either way. It's a complicated process that can go sour quickly, but there's the odd survivor that occasionally makes it worthwhile.

[apophis775]

Instead of "surgery' Preds for us, we have the Crystals. Pretty much, if you don' have a broken chest/groin/head it'll bring you back to full. Broken arms/legs don't affect preds. Even if you DO have one of those broken, the crystal will keep you alive a fairly long time.

you can remove sharpnel, with your fancy knife, and the Magical Pred Chem heals internal organ damage.

Your ONLY weakness is broken bones.



And slaves I think, is becoming more and more likely to get blocked no matter what, as we see no lore behind it, and it's "counter-intuitive" to gameplay and just pure bullshittery to run a "fight club" of slaves. It's just... so cringe it hurts.

[Sarah_U.]

I mean, I pit marines against xenos so that either of the victor, if still able to fight with their own medical threatment can fight, I can do so.
I don't like slaving, but pit fighting sounds like it's viable, no?

PS: Broken limbs reduce your ability to manipulate weapons and also increase your chance of getting dismembered from what I observed. It's just sad even with the tools at our disposal.
PPS: By manipulating weapons I mean dropping them 24/7 and just being barrely able to keep them on you so they risk being given to the ennemy.

[Monoo]

-snip-

A weakness would be, say, taking increased damage from fire. It's exploitable and easily repeatable if you have the proper equipment.

Broken bones are NOT a weakness, not by any means. They're a hindrance. Something designed to be annoying and take you temporarily out of the fight when it gets too intense. They're randomly occurring, and rather than making you die faster they're a byproduct of brute damage, which preds are resistant to. Leaving them untreated on the premise of weaknesses only impedes gameplay for pred players.

As for intentionally keeping them damaged because of their weaknesses, that's nonsensical as well. Both marines and xenos can overcome their most devastating weaknesses just fine. Weeds are a thing. Prosthetic limbs are a thing. Why shouldn't preds be fixable?

None of that about predators being too powerful either. I had a pierced lung once after a fight, and died in the safety of my own ship because there was no way to fix the O2 damage. Preds should die in honor duels to superior foes, not to something as pitiful as treatable suffocation. That's bull, and it goes against the grain of everything the whitelist stands for.

Edit - got a bit worked up, sorry about that. I tend to have pretty strong opinions about quality of life adjustments.

[Heckenshutze]

So far my experience as Predator only once I've seen slavery. I don't do it myself because I just don't like it, the only Rp I need is picking worthy prey (Xeno or Human). Mess around with the marines with the *overhere or *iseeyou emotes , defend the Sand Temple and it's tools and such.. But as stated above, we do it for the sake of Fun, because players from both parties enjoy it. If we followed the lore at 100% we predators would just rush into the Hive and wipe out the Xenos without making a question. Apop you said yourself you want to follow your own Lore and we're okay if you don't want us to take slaves, but Im sure people will start complaining about we predators just going murderbone.


About surgery, I confess I have made surgery to my Brothers for reasons stated above. My suggestion is, give the predators the ability to perform self-surgery to fix broken bones and such just like you're able to in Goonstation AND make it ghetto (glass shards or any sharp item to use as scalpel etc )

[LocalizedDownpour]

I personally feel that predators need to have the ability to have surgery. Though I also feel that every weakness people find well... When people find weaknesses they get buffed out. But at least give them splints nothing dishonorable there

[Toroic]

Well, in my case I wrote resetting bones (non-skull) with improvised tools into my pred's backstory. Idea being he enjoyed sparring and that naturally leads to a lot of broken bones, and thus he needed to know how to reset them. Skull fractures, internal organ healing, all is beyond his ability and interest.

viewtopic.php?f=125&t=8318

Pretty non-subtle, fairly limited, and the app got approved with that part front and center.

Tbh, I'm pretty confused how the preds with the lore you describe function or ever functioned as a society, or won against engineers if they refuse basic surgical care.

[forwardslashN]

1. Slaves
Historically, Yautja don't take slaves. They have a "slave" caste of their own population, but not of others. Slaves are considered a weakness (as is being captured or defeated). In fact, within lore, there are squads of Yautja who "maintain" hunting grounds by blasting weak and sick animals to strengthen the herd. This is considered "Menial" work and no trophies or meat is taken. Typically, the body is just left to rot, as they don't believe the prey was honorable.

Where are you getting this from?

In terms of the medical treatment, I already voiced my opinion in dev. I'm fine with surgery until healing crystals are replaced. It requires another predator, is time consuming, and is completely legitimate after overcoming worthy prey.

[apophis775]

Where are you getting this from?

In terms of the medical treatment, I already voiced my opinion in dev. I'm fine with surgery until healing crystals are replaced. It requires another predator, is time consuming, and is completely legitimate after overcoming worthy prey.

It's from some of the novels. Let me find a better source:

http://www.oocities.org/gunsandgod/honor.html

http://predatorium.com/threads/the-cast ... utja.6627/ <Slightly more dependable topic

I believe, the original source of the ETA for me is from either a novel I read about a pred that was trying to move into a new caste as he thought he was worthy to hunt. I used to read a LOT of the random Sci-Fi books when I was younger (before the internet).

[forwardslashN]

It's from some of the novels. Let me find a better source:

http://www.oocities.org/gunsandgod/honor.html

http://predatorium.com/threads/the-cast ... utja.6627/ <Slightly more dependable topic

I believe, the original source of the ETA for me is from either a novel I read about a pred that was trying to move into a new caste as he thought he was worthy to hunt. I used to read a LOT of the random Sci-Fi books when I was younger (before the internet).

I am rather sure the "Eta" is fan creation and the isn't credited in the lore at all. Of the various predator books floating around, of those that I know about as I have not read them, only the "Hish" interpretation of predators keep slaves, and not of the hunters themselves. I could be wrong, of course. There is at least one instance of predator enslaving a human though, or at the very least forcing servitude, that I can link to, and only because I read it recently. It later develops into a mutual friendship, but regardless. I don't think predators should be enslaving humans. They are noble hunters, not slavers, so we agree there. But I don't really see an issue with predators forcing humans, or aliens to do something for them with force, if necessary.

On the topic of yautja taking their own people into slavery, I suppose that's possible. However, considering how xenophobic and supremacist a typical predator is, I would figure this is a special clan custom (to enslave the weak), not a common practice, and really sounds like bad blood behavior more than anything. Still possible, I suppose. If it is possible, however, that just adds more reason for the predators to enslave other, weaker species into servitude. I'm not sure it's a good idea to really have either.

[Biolock]

I am not quite as seasoned on the Yautja lore as you two are, but I don't think it's too far fetched to imagine a specific group of clans enslaving humans to do their bitch work, especially because the predators don't give a damn about any species but their own (and sometimes not even then).

Ultimately though, it's a gameplay factor. Both the Predators and the humans involved in the enslavement process seem to enjoy it, and it's the LEAST of our problems when it comes to gameplay because it easily generates less salt than hunting.

[doodeeda]

One thing I don't like about the surgery is how Preds gather up all the surgical tools at round-start and hide them in the lodge or wherever. If we're allowed to do surgery, we should have the tools already in the ship.

[forwardslashN]

I've changed my mind in terms of pred surgery. It shouldn't happen unless the hunter has successfully finished the Hunt and came back to the ship victorious, intent on leaving the round. This is exceedingly rare, and the predator would not typically need surgery in this case as they are leaving the round anyway. At all other times the predator should be self-sufficient enough to either fight to the death or heal their own wounds. Though I think ahelping some extremely rare cases would also be permissible, or under the orders of an elder.

In terms of slavery, I don't think predators should be actively taking slaves. Some event-like rounds are okay, or if the elder chooses to allow this, but otherwise it doesn't really seem very predator-like behavior. Yautja should be more interested in the Hunt, not ownership of lower species.

[Eenkogneeto]

Don't know if I'm actually allowed to post here, but my issue with 'slaves' is that more often than not taking a slave involves killing 2-3 marines he's with. Which is really unfun for those people and goes against the idea that slaves improve the round. The most obvious example is recently 2 PMCs and a marine were planetside, a pred came up and legtrapped the smartgunner and dragged him off, the others followed and without any real danger befalling himself the pred proceeded to beat the shit out of the 'rine while trying to drag the gunner off. Eventually, the pred died, Exploded and mortally wounded the one uninjured PMC, And then a second pred walked up and took that one as a 'slave' dragged it to the hive, and left it there for a young runner to walk up and kill it.
We all felt completley denied our chance at a cool last stand, Yeah we killed a pred but why did we even have to fight them with no holds barred like that?

[apophis775]

Yeah, that Pred would have given 0 fucks about the survivors from that, unless they were trying to steal pred technology. He wouldn't have taken "slaves". This is why, I am so against them.

[Xurphorus]

I've been pretty active as a pred player as of recent, and I'm still getting used to how I should be bringing forth many ways of introducing the RP experience of Predators to the round. I have mixed feelings on what should be done, but I understand all the points being made very clearly.

Taking Humans As Slaves: I feel that this should not be /abused/ but it does bring a certain kind of experience and RP to the round. If not allowed to do certain things with marine players then what kind of RP can we pred players as major RP elements bring to the round? I haven't seen or heard any major complaints on predators taking humans as slaves as of yet, so I don't think it should be wiped from the board. The simple going off and hunting the soft-meats is great and all, but it can get stale if there isn't any real RP behind it, most of the time it seems like senseless murderbone when you think about it. I believe in giving the players who want the all out pred rp experience deserve it. Also instead of trying to tie the gameplay so closely to the lore, allow something to play out gradually. Sometimes trying to make something of yours resemble something else doesn't really make your own work now does it? There are instances where preds would ''Be-friend'' a human or two, and I think that's cool, it brings RP to the round. People want to enjoy the game, not get bored of it. Slaves, Companions, Fight-Clubs, Duels, and Alliances, these are the best things to alternate through besides the usual ''Hunt''.


Predators and Surgery: Alright, I know alot of players are guilty of doing surgery on each other after a duel, a hunt, or simply getting severely wounded on the field, and I understand why it would get annoying to see but seeing that preds have no /Real/ way of fixing their limbs on their own, getting surgery from another predator who would take up the role as pack healer is the best solution at the moment. A way to fix this is by simply giving predators a way to fix themselves properly instead of hoping to god that their is another predator who knows surgery. Crystals only do so much, and since there are so MANY ways a predator can get crippled it would be best to do so. Some wounds can get so grievous that it can hinder your chance to enjoy the round entirely. AP rounds, Xenos going for limbs, hugger combat. There are many ways a pred can be taken out of the round early, and when everyone wants to kill you. Nobody wants to be taken out of the round early at all, even when its to something that can be fixed so easily. I don't know what more to say on the matter.

I think that Monoo, Sarah_U, Scrat, Biolock, and L.Downpour make good points on the subjects. Instead of making the game more tolerable for you, make it more tolerable for everyone.

[Xurphorus]

I personally feel that predators need to have the ability to have surgery. Though I also feel that every weakness people find well... When people find weaknesses they get buffed out. But at least give them splints nothing dishonorable there

FYI: We do have splints but due to the most recent update they are bascially useless now since they randomly break off your body even when you're not being attacked in that certain area. Splints randomly break off instead of actually serving its use.

[LocalizedDownpour]

FYI: We do have splints but due to the most recent update they are bascially useless now since they randomly break off your body even when you're not being attacked in that certain area. Splints randomly break off instead of actually serving its use.

I figure as long as another predator does it it's not big deal. You know making preds RP with one another and possibly getting some conflict on a decline or a blood debt for saving a life.

[Shyguychizzy]

I mean there is always a risk for a predator, many times the predator who was being fixed at times have died, given predator has 1 life, in which is valuable. It is quite dishonorable for a human to operate on a pred I agree in that but there are times in which low pop or even low population of predator rounds in which it is merely one. Single hunter hunting for a long period succumbed to severe injuries or just stopped. I think surgery is quite fair, not all pred surgeries go well, at most it's usually ghetto surgery if the correct tools are not collected, and doesn't end well. Anyhow, it requires another predator to operate on, I mean perhaps every time a little fracture happens yeah don't over do it but serious injuries like chest and head.

[Xurphorus]

I figure as long as another predator does it it's not big deal. You know making preds RP with one another and possibly getting some conflict on a decline or a blood debt for saving a life.

Local, thats not the case, when other do it and succeed with applying them, they /Break Apart/ at random.

[LocalizedDownpour]

Local, thats not the case, when other do it and succeed with applying them, they /Break Apart/ at random.

I mean preds should be doing surgery on preds...

[Sarah_U.]

I would like a mechanism in place that allows preds or even anyone to operate on themselves. Give them a chance of dropping items if it hurts and use the higher pain resistance of preds to lower that drop chance (Or allow for a proceedure to stop it completly, e.g: Crystal after the intended area to fix is reached (AKA bones or organs))... IDEAS~