Survey results, new Server Rules draft, and next General Rules Only day

[Rahlzel]

Just wanted to add, I was asked by staff if MPs are immune to battlefield executions. I think because they are bound by Marine Law as an extension of the rules, they should be. I've editing the Military Police rule as a result. Any shitty MPs should be Adminhelped so they can get gone.

[Nantei]

Can we please relax the strictness of MP's so they stop being lawful stupid? Officer's judgement is a huge factor in police work, and forcing them to uphold laws when they aren't reasonable makes for a shitty experience all-around. I would rather see MP's become a whitelisted role rather than keep the current system. Dealing with MP's shouldn't have to be a negative experience. I don't even care if it's a little leeway, just something that doesn't force them to uphold laws for extremely petty non-malicious things. Warnings should suffice in a lot of scenarios. Like how MP's will scream at you to stop putting attachments on your safetied gun in briefing because they are outright obligated to.

And while I am on my soap box I guess, I should mention I have no idea why there's a strict no wedding rule. Like, I understand not having them in-game for disruptive reasons. But marines not being able to marry each other is... bizarre, to put it mildly. Real marines not only get married to each other extremely commonly, but they also often deploy together. It's good for morale, which is the most important part of deployment.

[Rahlzel]

Can we please relax the strictness of MP's so they stop being lawful stupid? Officer's judgement is a huge factor in police work, and forcing them to uphold laws when they aren't reasonable makes for a shitty experience all-around. I would rather see MP's become a whitelisted role rather than keep the current system.

Hm. Yeah I've seen some stickler MPs. Maybe something like... the MP can choose to ignore a player breaking Marine Laws, but when they act on players it must be lawful? But then you might have Neglect of Duty, which means that MP broke the rules.

Any ideas?

I'm planning on renovating Marine Law so it might improve on this without touching the rules, but I'm open to suggestions.

[Nantei]

Thanks for responding. My main beef is that there's OOC consequences. MP's HAVE to follow marine law to the T or they risk a job ban. MP's deviating from marine law should be dealt with ICly, not OOCly. It's the main reason I don't play MP's. I think the only time an MP should get a job ban for marine law is in very obviously bad areas, like letting a known danger to the station go, doing mutiny, extreme incompetence, etc.

In terms of specific changes? Just relax the rules a bit. I think the rules system is pretty much fine for marine law. It just needs to inform MP's not to be Judge Dredd.

[NethIafins]

Hm. Yeah I've seen some stickler MPs. Maybe something like... the MP can choose to ignore a player breaking Marine Laws, but when they act on players it must be lawful? But then you might have Neglect of Duty, which means that MP broke the rules.

Any ideas?

I'm planning on renovating Marine Law so it might improve on this without touching the rules, but I'm open to suggestions.

I was thinking the other day about some kind of ticket system, that if infraction happens, MP can write it on... A PDA let's say... Then if they see that guy was warned before or infraction is too high, they have to brig them.

Basically staff notes and ban system lite

[Honkintuga]

I was thinking the other day about some kind of ticket system, that if infraction happens, MP can write it on... A PDA let's say... Then if they see that guy was warned before or infraction is too high, they have to brig them.

Basically staff notes and ban system lite

Wont people abuse it?

[Nantei]

Probably would have to let the CMP remove them upon appeal, or not have them carry over between rounds. Or again, whitelist the role.

[NethIafins]

Make ooc rule not to abuse it, like we currently have with MP and Marine Law.

Then make all those logs viewable by mod+ staff. Maybe even mentor+

[NethIafins]

Probably would have to let the CMP remove them upon appeal, or not have them carry over between rounds. Or again, whitelist the role.

Noooooo of course they don't move thru rounds. I thought it was obvious

[Retrokinesis]

Maybe instead of marines being required to enforce marine law 100% of the time, switch them to something more synth-like in that they're incapable of personally breaking marine law, but are not required to apply it 100% of the time? Obviously they'd still be responsible for enforcing it as well (unlike a synth) but they'd have some discretion to issue verbal or written warnings if they feel the infraction is minor enough or are otherwise busy enough that a full brigging isn't necessarily warranted. They'd still be subject to neglect of duty charges if they were waiving-off offenses they really shouldn't be and OOC action if they break marine law themselves, but would have some actual ability to apply thought to enforcing it.

I'd definitely keep their immunity to BEs and the ability of command personnel to order them to arrest someone specifically, though.

[Nantei]

And while I am on my soap box I guess, I should mention I have no idea why there's a strict no wedding rule. Like, I understand not having them in-game for disruptive reasons. But marines not being able to marry each other is... bizarre, to put it mildly. Real marines not only get married to each other extremely commonly, but they also often deploy together. It's good for morale, which is the most important part of deployment.

Also just so it isn't totally missed because I'm obsessive and edit things too much. Bad habbit.

[Rahlzel]

Maybe instead of marines being required to enforce marine law 100% of the time, switch them to something more synth-like in that they're incapable of personally breaking marine law, but are not required to apply it 100% of the time?

Well shit. I think this is a winner.

[NoahKirchner]

I think that a rewriting of marine law would solve a lot of the issues that we currently have with MPs being sticklers about stuff.. I certainly think that there should be a rule that strongly encourages MPs to enforce marine law, but at the same time this can sometimes lead to them being more disruptive than if they didn't. Maybe a clause that says that unless ordered by a superior they have the ability to disregard a broken law or issue a warning where the minimum crime would be minor brig time, and extend the "MPs can't break marine law" to be "MPs can't break moderate and above marine law" so that they could be yelled at icly for neglect of duty if they don't enforce a law on a marine but they won't be banned. This would also allow them to get in trouble icly for other minor laws, like disrespect, so that their characters can have a bit more depth than robots tasked with bringing justice upon any who wrong the sacred name of marine law.

[Rahlzel]

Maybe a clause that says that unless ordered by a superior they have the ability to disregard a broken law

The catch with this is that it limits MPs' abilities to IC ignore a marine doing something unlawful when perhaps earlier that marine saved the MP's life or something. That kind of give-and-take is fairly common in real scenarios, depending on the law that's broken, of course. Murder probably not.

EDIT: Hm.. I'm picturing adding "unless ordered by a superior" to the end of that rule I just wrote. Maybe it should be there. Leave the ignoring-unlawful-acts-for-personal-reasons to things the MP just happens to see.

[Rahlzel]

"MP jobs can never break Marine Law themselves, but they are not required to enforce an unlawful act unless ordered by a superior."

Yeah, I think you're right. That feels better, and it means MPs don't need to be dicks all the time.

EDIT: Note that I moved MP's BE immunity clause to the BE rule itself.

[Sulaboy]

-Snip

While MPs not enforcing the law isn't something I condone, I do think there needs to be another pass to marine law. It feels like most of marine law was added to counter the meta instead of being a cohesive structure.

Honestly I would like if more procedures were put into place for some things. Unlike mp arrest procedure these would be handled icly. Stuff like procedures for processing survivors, a proper prescription/distribution write up for chemistry, a form for altering the ship, a form for the deployment of MTs or doctors.

Some marine laws are silly, like iron sugar. Most never get enforced because it's difficult to get MPs to sort something it quickly (I do like that other roles can help MPs now). Some stuff is gray like how there is no law against treason, but that might fall under terrorist collaboration.

Also there is a lot of ambiguity with how some roles are supposed to handle insubordinate underlings. Like as CMO what are you supposed to do if one of your doctors refuses to listen to you, do you still mark them for insubordination, can you cut the access from their ID? What about MPs and people who are currently deployed. A lot of problems happen on the ground, and it's really difficult for MPs to punish marines if they go down, I guess now you can order your marines to arrest the rouge, and the SL has his zip ties to give out.

I'd be fine trying to write up some forms or procedure if that would help.

[NoahKirchner]

While MPs not enforcing the law isn't something I condone, I do think there needs to be another pass to marine law. It feels like most of marine law was added to counter the meta instead of being a cohesive structure.

Honestly I would like if more procedures were put into place for some things. Unlike mp arrest procedure these would be handled icly. Stuff like procedures for processing survivors, a proper prescription/distribution write up for chemistry, a form for altering the ship, a form for the deployment of MTs or doctors.

Some marine laws are silly, like iron sugar. Most never get enforced because it's difficult to get MPs to sort something it quickly (I do like that other roles can help MPs now). Some stuff is gray like how there is no law against treason, but that might fall under terrorist collaboration.

Also there is a lot of ambiguity with how some roles are supposed to handle insubordinate underlings. Like as CMO what are you supposed to do if one of your doctors refuses to listen to you, do you still mark them for insubordination, can you cut the access from their ID? What about MPs and people who are currently deployed. A lot of problems happen on the ground, and it's really difficult for MPs to punish marines if they go down, I guess now you can order your marines to arrest the rouge, and the SL has his zip ties to give out.

I'd be fine trying to write up some forms or procedure if that would help.

Yes yes 100x yes.

Standard Operating Procedure is something that I see on every HRP server and it really adds a cohesive structure to punishing people ICly, and I think it is desperately needed in CM. It's useful because it's an IC way of handling OOC issues, namely on CM a lack of cohesive structure for the shipside jobs. There's not much difference between a CMO or a Doctor aside from the radio channels and the access, and an SOP can certainly help that. I'd even advocate it being placed ingame as a book a lot like the marine law is, just for quick reference.

It can cover a lot of things, what actually defines insubordination, who is the next in command with no present CO, XO or any SOs, ranks and their subordinates, for both enlisted and officers, civilian handling, ID changes and stuff with that, things that marine law is set to enforce but that really shouldn't be enforced by marine law, but should instead fall under a slightly less important document so it can be ignored if the MP chooses to do so. Stuff like weapons out in briefing, etc.

[taketheshot56]

Id also like to see some precedence for self defense in here, Ive been charged with assault with a deadly weapon for defending myself.

[Bronimin]

What about admin bombing or sabotage of solo holdouts on the Almayer, aka 'autism forts'? That is, one marine or a few finding a corner to hide in and fortifying it after the aliens board instead of joining the main marine defence. Still going to get bombed and sabotaged? There was no mention of it in the old rules, no mention of it here either, unless 'potentially delaying the round end' counts as 'being a dick'. How about hangar deck defences, which are similar because there is no win condition for the trapped marines unless the aliens attack?

And what about admin bombing the last survivors of one team, to force the game to end? I'd rather a button was pressed to force round end and those survivors allowed to continue roleplaying if they want.

[Sambalu]

I was thinking the other day about some kind of ticket system, that if infraction happens, MP can write it on... A PDA let's say... Then if they see that guy was warned before or infraction is too high, they have to brig them.

Basically staff notes and ban system lite

We already kinda have this with security records, but I'd like to see them become less of a hassle to use. Right now, you can't edit them without finding a records computer though. It'd be a great improvement if we could edit the records with some kind of PDA, or even the secHUD.

[DriedMilk]

New BE rules state that only marines can be executed. Meaning that civilians or any non-marine in the Area of Operations are inmune to BEs.

Is this intended?

[Sulaboy]

New BE rules state that only marines can be executed. Meaning that civilians or any non-marine in the Area of Operations are inmune to BEs.

Is this intended?

This just means you can't BE doctors, the liaison, or survivors. It should be marine law that you can't BE non-USCM personnel (because that makes sense), but not a server rule. This wouldn't come into play too often, because the MPs could always deal with the issue. Still the CO or other marines could decide that killing someone is necessary depending on the escalation that took place

[coroneljones]

We already kinda have this with security records, but I'd like to see them become less of a hassle to use. Right now, you can't edit them without finding a records computer though. It'd be a great improvement if we could edit the records with some kind of PDA, or even the secHUD.

You can edit it with the secHUD, just use the comments

[WinterClould]

New BE rules state that only marines can be executed. Meaning that civilians or any non-marine in the Area of Operations are inmune to BEs.

Is this intended?

Makes sense. Doctors and such will almost never be "On the battlefield" so they shouldn't be somewhere that MP's can't deal with them or that a CO would need to execute them.

[Sir Lordington]

Considering rules on the CL have been loosened, I wouldn't want them to not be executable.