Marine Law Update Draft

[Sir Lordington]

To coincide with the new rules draft, Marine Law has been rewritten with a few objectives in mind:

• Eliminate redundancies and rationalise the layout to make Marine Law easier to read.
• Simplify procedure and make it more all-encompassing.
• Reword laws to make their intent more clear.
• Solve the issue of charge stacking and the ability for MPs to screw over Marines giving them massive brig timers over minor crimes.
• Redefine the role of the Chief MP, turn him into an actual Head of department who administrates and organises, instead of an MP with a fancy black uniform and more power.
• Patch some obvious holes in what people were and were not allowed to do.

The exact changes are too many to list but overall Marine Law has been shortened, clarified, and simplified so it should be easy to read and even easier to follow. We've gone from 36 laws to 25, some being recombined into others, a few biting the dust and even more having their wording and/or names changed. Several sections have been shuffled and rewritten and a few new ones have been added.

Marine Law Draft Formatting is not excellent but it'll look pretty in the wiki.
Ranks page has been updated!

As with the Server Rules Draft, this will go into effect for Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. Feedback is evidently very welcome.

Disclaimer: I obviously don't make the calls on Marine Law, Rahlzel does.

Edit: Marine Law has undergone minor changes since the start of the testing. Make sure to review it frequently.

[spookydonut]

I like it, but if suggest doing away with min/Max and going to a set first /second /third offense model

For non violent crimes it would be something like warn/short brig/long brig

For things like assault it would be long brig /perma

Murder goes straight to perma or execution

[awan]

The stuff that is to broad is still to broad. And the stuff that is to narrow is still to narrow. Can we at least add some of the procedures I indicated were missing?

[Solarmare]

Contraband of unauthorized medication is noted as something that shouldn't be possessed, yet distribution of it is completely fine with these rules?
There isn't a definition of basic medication as well but people just decide that anything that actually exists is already authorized anyway to suit themselves.

[awan]

1. Trespassing should not just be included as restricted by Command personnel. Mt's or mp's may have very good reasoning to restrict certain area's as well. Even doctors. Heck even staying in the front office of the CL when he tells you to leave should be trespassing imo.
2. Should attempted murder and such be included into it and just have the same time? Basicly any attempted crime.
3. Theft can be done of something that is not someone their possession or property. (Stealing a powerloader, stealing fuel tanks, stealing a body.)
4. Is intentionally not doing an order disrespect and neglect of duty? If not what makes it one of the other?
5. Repeat offender still says To repeat a previous crime you have been convicted or and released from. The second you are released you have been convicted. So pick a moment from when it counts and make it either To repeat a previous crime you have been convicted and released from. Or To repeat a previous crime you have been convicted for. If you want to make it more clear change convicted to arrested. The and or in this situation makes no sense as one situation occurs after the other. If you are released you have always been convicted.
6. Interfering with an arrest when the general rules only apply marines can enforce marine law on eachother should this then count as well? If marine A is arresting marine B and marine C interferes it will get out of hand very quickly. (Suggestion To disrupt or interfere with a lawful arrest done by the militairy police.)
7. Mutiny as I stated in the slack chat not deploying en mass as marines is also a mutiny. I would suggest changing it to something that reflects this. Mutiny is also done in group sense otherwise it would be closer to Sedition.
8. Confiscation procedure needs to be added.
9. People do not get what a demotion is they confuse it with a reduction in rank or a termination this has to be explained aswell.
10. Can you give your opinion what the charges should be for an mp using lethal force and what their punishment should be? This would help me a lot in seeing your thoughts behind how you would implement the law system.

[I_Solve_Practical_Problems]

One of my lingering questions regards the CL? I know that the CL should still have most laws such as assault, murder, or drug distribution applied to them, but I'm not sure how insubordination or disrespect would work. Since the CL exists outside the command structure, where would he fit into things in terms of those laws? I've seen various interpretations ranging from the CL being considered below privates to only being subordinate to the CO, if subordinate to anyone.

Perhaps the CL should be made explicitly exempt to those two laws (and those two laws only given their nature), but if their shenanigans become disruptive, they can be brigged for hooliganism.

[awan]

One of my lingering questions regards the CL? I know that the CL should still have most laws such as assault, murder, or drug distribution applied to them, but I'm not sure how insubordination or disrespect would work. Since the CL exists outside the command structure, where would he fit into things in terms of those laws? I've seen various interpretations ranging from the CL being considered below privates to only being subordinate to the CO, if subordinate to anyone.

Perhaps the CL should be made explicitly exempt to those two laws (and those two laws only given their nature), but if their shenanigans become disruptive, they can be brigged for hooliganism.

Currently everyone is subject to marine law. Even the cl or civilians from the planet. All orders from the commander should be followed. If they cannot get you on insubordination they will get you on something else. I would say from all officers but ask an admin to confirm. It is the same for insult. In general they can get brigged for hooliganism and technicly they would be below everyone if you look at the ranks on the wiki.

[FearTheBlackout]

I like it a lot! It holds MPs a little more accountable and simplifies things.

Insubordination
Failing to follow a lawful order from a superior

What defines a superior in this case? Best not to leave it vague lest problems arise.

[coroneljones]

Just a suggestion and a question:
-Manslaughter should be increased, currently, its assault with a deadly weapon with an extra demotion punishment at minimum, perhaps 30 or something like that?
-Contraband, since chems are now in there, are we still doing per-chem in the possession of a non-medic, or one charge for all chems?
-A superior, still superior rank or position? Or direct superior for your role?

[Surrealistik]

Contraband should only be concerned with Mindbreaker/Space Drugs as used to be the case; after all this rule was tweaked to be concerned with all combination chems mainly to help thwart Assblast USA/broken drug combos that involved Hyperzine as a lynchpin chem.

Now that Hyperzine is basically useless, this law as written serves no compelling balance related purpose (and the narrative aspect is pretty sketchy), since there is not a single remaining drug combo that is a game changer on anywhere near the same level.

This jives with the new philosophy of keeping play as liberal and diverse as is reasonable and possible.

[Build_R_]

-Regarding prisoner rights, there may be some confusion with the part describing all rights: "They can NOT be denied, except in an extreme situation and only then with authorization from the Chief MP." and the radio right: "Unless the prisoner has abused the radio, they are authorized a standard headset. If any MP believes that it is being abused this right can be denied."

-Also, I'm not so sure MPs need pistols on Code Green since they require CMP or aCO permission to use them anyway.

-When a Battlefield execution happens, what concerns should an MP have that would warrant a fax to High Command? Would it be if the BE was against someone not breaking a law or perhaps if the situation could have been handled easily by MPs or some other concern?

[coroneljones]

Another one that I forgot.
MPs reporting to the brig on Code Red to protect prisoners should still be a thing, in my opinion

[Skimmy2]

For Intoxication it says "Brig time until return to normal", I would recommend rewording it to "Brig time until sober".

[Szunti]

What about a law against marines who take crucial equipment from the AO or hide equipment or any other way to make it useful only to themselves?
(eg. hiding ammo boxes, bringing MG, sentry or maybe other costly ordered guns back to Almayer when they are wounded instead of letting healthy marines use it). Is this just a case of disorderly conduct? Although I think this could be worse than stealing and disorderly conduct has lower maximum punishment.

Is NJP applicable for the crimes where the minimum punishment is 10 minutes? Or only where it is strictly lower than 10 minutes?

MPs should be able to use force without arresting. Eg. when ordered by an officer to remove a non-compliant civilian from a hazard. Or keep the CL out of the CIC. Drag a marine out of the dropship and put a helmet on his head.

EDIT:

And one more. I saw nitpicky revenge player reports against MPs who make mistakes in protocols. Eg. flashed multiple times or forgot to remove cuff or didn't tell immediately the obvious charge. This is unfair especially to new players. Even brigging someone is hard. You don't know how long the stun of the flash lasts and if you stumble with the controls when removing the cuff that could take a while and the convicted marine can easily escape.

I think MPs should be protected from these revenge attempts if they generally make an effort to follow protocol especially if the player is new to MP.

[Sir Lordington]

I like it, but if suggest doing away with min/Max and going to a set first /second /third offense model

For non violent crimes it would be something like warn/short brig/long brig

For things like assault it would be long brig /perma

Murder goes straight to perma or execution

This was considered, but the current model was chosen because it allows for flexibility in the sentencing depending on the circumstances and what crimes were committed, while still removing charge stacking.

Contraband of unauthorized medication is noted as something that shouldn't be possessed, yet distribution of it is completely fine with these rules?
There isn't a definition of basic medication as well but people just decide that anything that actually exists is already authorized anyway to suit themselves.

-Contraband, since chems are now in there, are we still doing per-chem in the possession of a non-medic, or one charge for all chems?

Contraband should only be concerned with Mindbreaker/Space Drugs as used to be the case; after all this rule was tweaked to be concerned with all combination chems mainly to help thwart Assblast USA/broken drug combos that involved Hyperzine as a lynchpin chem.

Now that Hyperzine is basically useless, this law as written serves no compelling balance related purpose (and the narrative aspect is pretty sketchy), since there is not a single remaining drug combo that is a game changer on anywhere near the same level.

This jives with the new philosophy of keeping play as liberal and diverse as is reasonable and possible.

Medicinal chems no longer need authorisation. Stuff like Mindbreaker is still illegal and cannot be authorised.

-A superior, still superior rank or position? Or direct superior for your role?

One of my lingering questions regards the CL? I know that the CL should still have most laws such as assault, murder, or drug distribution applied to them, but I'm not sure how insubordination or disrespect would work. Since the CL exists outside the command structure, where would he fit into things in terms of those laws? I've seen various interpretations ranging from the CL being considered below privates to only being subordinate to the CO, if subordinate to anyone.

Perhaps the CL should be made explicitly exempt to those two laws (and those two laws only given their nature), but if their shenanigans become disruptive, they can be brigged for hooliganism.

I like it a lot! It holds MPs a little more accountable and simplifies things.


What defines a superior in this case? Best not to leave it vague lest problems arise.

Clarified in the new Ranks page.

snip

► Show Spoiler

1. Restriction by command has been removed.
2. Attempted, accessory etc. are currently under discussion. Attempted murder is currently coevered under assault with a deadly weapon, and there aren't many other attempted crimes. It'll probably be added if necessary though.
3. Fixed, you can now steal from the USCM, Weyland and other non-person entities.
4. Clarified. Insubordination. Neglect of duty would be if you refused an order AND stopped doing your job.
5. Fixed.
6. Marines may enforce it OOCly but ICly it is only enforced by MPs/CMP. Clarified in the law anyway.
7. Removed Mutiny law. Already covered by sedition.
8. Added as part of search procedure
9. Added as special provision
10. Lethal force is now in server rules and not Marine Law. MPs may use lethal force when it doesn't break Marine Law (basically via the self-defense clause). Should they straight up kill a person in an unlawful way, beyond the OOC punishment, murder would be applied. If not, Assault with a Deadly weapon. I'd go with maximum punishment due to the aggravating factor of Neglect of Duty, since breaking the law as an MP certainly is certainly not performing your duty in a satisfactory way.

-Regarding prisoner rights, there may be some confusion with the part describing all rights: "They can NOT be denied, except in an extreme situation and only then with authorization from the Chief MP." and the radio right: "Unless the prisoner has abused the radio, they are authorized a standard headset. If any MP believes that it is being abused this right can be denied."

-Also, I'm not so sure MPs need pistols on Code Green since they require CMP or aCO permission to use them anyway.

-When a Battlefield execution happens, what concerns should an MP have that would warrant a fax to High Command? Would it be if the BE was against someone not breaking a law or perhaps if the situation could have been handled easily by MPs or some other concern?

-Clarified
-Lethal Force is now in server rules. MPs may use lethal force when it doesn't break the law.
-Battlefield executions are deliberately open, therefore this provision is also deliberately open. If an MP feels an execution was unfair or unjustified, they can fax. This is entirely IC, any concerns may be manifested. At worst, you'll get no response or a response saying the execution was reasonable.

For Intoxication it says "Brig time until return to normal", I would recommend rewording it to "Brig time until sober".

Changed.

What about a law against marines who take crucial equipment from the AO or hide equipment or any other way to make it useful only to themselves?
(eg. hiding ammo boxes, bringing MG, sentry or maybe other costly ordered guns back to Almayer when they are wounded instead of letting healthy marines use it). Is this just a case of disorderly conduct? Although I think this could be worse than stealing and disorderly conduct has lower maximum punishment.

Is NJP applicable for the crimes where the minimum punishment is 10 minutes? Or only where it is strictly lower than 10 minutes?

MPs should be able to use force without arresting. Eg. when ordered by an officer to remove a non-compliant civilian from a hazard. Or keep the CL out of the CIC. Drag a marine out of the dropship and put a helmet on his head.

-Disorderly conduct or theft may apply depending on the exact circumstances. Theft punishment was brought down to thrity minutes to keep in line with other punishments.

-Yes, clarified.

-In those three cases, crimes are being committed so there really is no reason not to arrest. Personally, I cannot think of a situation where an MP may need to use force and a crime is not being committed.

[Wesmas]

-Also, I'm not so sure MPs need pistols on Code Green since they require CMP or aCO permission to use them anyway.

I disagree. When I play MP, I like to have a pistol in a shoulder hoslter. The only time I use it is when we have aliens on the DS or when the alert rises. But by not having it on you, suddenly you can find yourself in a terrible situation. There was a round a couple of days ago, where I was an MP and aliens were on the normandy. I happened to be in the brig and so grabbed a pistol, but most of the MPs were armed only with battons or weapons from the firing range.

Instead, write it so that MPs must have lethals holstered on green alert, unless there is exeptional circumstances. You could even require MPs using their pistols on green to report to the CMP/aCO and justify it, facing a weapons misshandling charge if it was unjustified in the eyes of the officer.

[Roland410]

I think the WO having to follow the SO's orders should be changed, it often resulted before them thinking MPs are their little toys. Before the update this was usually not such a huge problem, because most of the time they backed off when they got told off, but now the rules clearly say they have to answer to the CO, XO AND SO's. Since we are working on this currently, it might be worth revisiting the demotion part though, it often would be better to be able to demote someone to private and boot them off the ship than putting say an RO back to their department as a CT where they can fuck stuff up once again. Otherwise seems solid so far.

[NoahKirchner]

Confiscation for improper equipment usage seems a bit much, especially considering that it's to be given WITH a warning. I'd much rather that come after the warning so new players don't get memed by it. It's also very vague and the name really doesn't match the description. Having a weapon out in briefing isn't necessarily improper, and I'm more concerned that other things could get lumped into that which are unintended.

Contraband requires a list of standardized equipment.

Sedition is a bit vague, since to damage government property hurts the USCM, I think it should be more of an intent to overthrow the command structure of the ship personally.




I think an SOP (Standard Operating Procedure) is desperately required as a seperate document for MPs, having it around would give laws context for when they are and aren't enforced, like trespassing on code red is an extreme example. It would also allow for a bit more RP since the more there is to talk about the more there is to talk about.

Another thing to do, just as a QOL, would be to separate the different crimes by severity and then give them numbers, so for example.

Theft is a low level crime, so next to its description you would have A001, just below it you'd have hooliganism with would be A002. For the medium severity crimes you'd have assault as B001, and just under it insubordination which would be B002.

This would allow clauses like "Low severity crimes (Or whatever term you come up with) can be ignored by an MP and the punishment substituted for a warning, and would also neatly organize the wiki page for marine law by severity as opposed to as the document is, which is largely unorganized. To see a good example of the idea I'm trying to convey here, I think https://wiki.aurorastation.org/index.ph ... egulations Aurora does this really well with their corporate regulations, and it's what I'm trying to model here because it's very efficient, neat, and allows the MPs to speak easier.

[Xenomobia]

I had the hope to finally see the MPs allowed to carry the pistol with them, but it will never happen I guess. We still have to assist to scenes where armed marines are tasered or xenos being beat with stunbatons lol
"Ahhh but MPs will go rogue and kill everyone" "Ahhh but this will escalate quickly and everyone shoot eachother" "Ahhh but MPs can raise alert level if there's xeno on board"

[awan]

So, here are the things I have been asked in the past and would love your opinion on aswell sir.
1. Do normal executions have to be in the execution room?
2. Do mps have to give a radio for execution last words. Or can it only be given if the prisoner request it on their own.
3. Does a prisoner get to pick if they appeal to the cmp or co? Or is this upto the CO and CMP?
4. Are you sure you want to make the demotion turned into termination only on high command approval?
We wanted less staff intervention to begin with. This increases it.
You are letting the Commander kill people without getting approval beforehand. And the aCO +CMP can do the same.
Can this be inform high command instead? It gives players more freedom and still lets staff intervene if it gets out of hand.
5. Can a synth be murdered? Or is this just destruction of government property?
6. And include a clause saying that marine law only protects neutral or friendlies (to the USCM). Shooting at a hostile upp is not murder ofc. Neither is killing an openly hostile survivor. Killing a friendly one would be though.

[Rohesie]

Improper Equipment Usage no longer requires a warning, so MPs can simply go collecting the weapons of unsuspecting boots, which is a very loved form of soft grief. And since there's nothing regarding when to apply minimum and maximum punishment? They can actually give them 15 minutes of brig time. Probably more, since the average new player is likely to react badly to it. All within the law and rules.

[Szunti]

What happens if there is no CMP? Should MPs choose an acting CMP?

[Nanu308]

What happens if there is no CMP? Should MPs choose an acting CMP?

Yes, Check the rank Page.

[Dothal]

I'm not sure if I like the idea of no more charge stacking, especially since it means that if a person has done a crime worse than resisting arrest, they now have no reason to comply with MPs, since at worst they get caught and sentenced to what they would've originally been sentenced to. IMO the no charge stacking shouldn't apply to resisting arrest or disrespect to a superior officer (Now under insubordination), just to make sure theres a punishment for cutting and running or calling the MPs bad names over and over.

[StephenNelson]

So the CL can't get drunk? This saddens me immensely