With the upcoming Whitelist for Commander, what should be the punishment for those who disobey orders?

[apophis775]

Specifically, should we add a rule or a mechanic to keep marines following orders? Obviously, in cases of mutiny the rule wouldn't apply, but in cases like "stop advancing and go back" and marines ignoring to meta-rush, they would.

Looking for the communities suggestions, input on how to sort of bring some "Military discipline" back to the marines.

One example is that any SL who disobeys the commander without a justifiable reason (not a bullshit one) would be job-banned from SL. Obviously, an exception if there's a mutiny or something. But they should be loyal to the commander and following his orders.

[Surrealistik]

Test subject for drugs/OD outcomes.

[TopHatPenguin]

Breaking their legs and being left for dead.

Potentially limited equipment?

[apophis775]

We were discussing possibly allowing the whitelisted CO to authorize battlefield executions for marines who disobey orders, or possible bans if they disobey the orders without a really legit reason.

[Surrealistik]

Execute them with drugs so that way I get some useful information (how long did they take to die, interim side effects, etc)

[Youbar]

mechanic to keep marines following orders

Have the river be flooded, and therefore, uncrossable by marines, unless they're being dragged across by an alien. The flood would die down after 30 minutes from pod or shuttle arrival. That'd stop the majority of meta-rushers, and keep the marines in line.

Otherwise, the best thing you can do is go to the pre-Alpha ruleset, where marines are warned, and even banned, for refusing to follow orders. People will then come to understand that being told by your squad leader, or command, to stay behind the river, or occupy a building, isn't a suggestion.

[Jroinc1]

Breaking their legs and being left for dead.

Potentially limited equipment?

Limited HOW? You can scavenge anything 10 min into the drop...

[Karmac]

I believe this should be completely up to the Commander, but should somehow relate to the character's back story/personality.

In fact, would it be possible to have this question IN the whitelisting itself? As a question that the CO should answer to show he means business about this.

[forwardslashN]

I believe this should be completely up to the Commander, but should somehow relate to the character's back story/personality.

This. I don't think CO's need snowflake punishment methods. If their men don't want to listen to them, they can do better next time.

[Surrealistik]

Remote microbombs implanted into each marine's brain; done.

[Neray]

This. I don't think CO's need snowflake punishment methods. If their men don't want to listen to them, they can do better next time.

^ this ^

[Monoo]

I'm against any form of ban for disobeying orders. That sounds like a fast track to an entire world of grief and angry players... grudges between COs and SLs would be massive, and a lot of unjust jobbans would probably be thrown around.

When you try to force the marines to follow orders with OOC methods, you're strangling the fluid nature and unpredictable fun of the standard SS13 round. All punishment should be handled IC in the interest of the server.

[apophis775]

The thing is, IRL people follow orders because there are consequences. In-game there really aren't consequences other than a single-round. this is a way, to sort of create that same situation.

[Monoo]

That's a very hefty consequence for a game, though, isn't it? It could turn players off of the server if they're job banned for either making a mistake or creating an IC conflict with the command staff. After all, didn't the marines in the movie disobey the command staff multiple times?

I think freeing up the MPs to go to the surface and apprehend the SL or having the commander execute them would handle the problem much more smoothly.

[Derpislav]

Sulaco is the first ship with hypersleep systems. It's effects on the human brain are not yet fully explored.
As such, military police officers are equipped by the means to detain any disobeying marine in case he's about to fully lose it. That is including the long-range infrasound/microwave neutralization device.

tl;dr deploy MPs planetside, stun and arrest their ass. Will give MPs a much more active role - right now it's mostly sitting around waiting for someone to please break the law, interrupted once a round by an RO fight or a trespassing.

[Doc]

I don't think this is a sign of needing an OOC revamp of the rules system, I think this is a sign of needing an IC revamp of the law system.

Not necessarily a vast change in Marine Law, but rather the MPs ability to enforce it, and cooperation with officers aboard to ship to actually ensure things are going as they should.

Adding a security console into the Bridge for command staff to place warrants, for example- with the new map, perhaps even making the Bridge and the Brig interconnected in some way. Allow the CO to place an execution order that can be carried out by MPs without the need for the primary commanding officers personal appearance. Make the Brig more secure so individual prisoners cant screw with MPs (having a cell wing instead of cells opening into the entire Brig where they can take any equipment laying around). I'm sure there's other things that could be suggested, but generally having MP feature seem less like the 'lowest priority' of the entire Marine team.

Additionally, it just seems like MPs don't get any respect from the general player base, even Command and other non-Marine roles. I'm not necessarily saying they deserve it in general, but it certainly hinders their ability to enforce law properly when other branches of the ship refuse to cooperate and marines don't feel like there's a true "threat" associated with breaking Marine Law.

[Derpislav]

(having a cell wing instead of cells opening into the entire Brig where they can take any equipment laying around)

Their fault for leaving a gun on the table. All doors and vendors are otherwise ID-locked.

[Neray]

The thing is, IRL people follow orders because there are consequences. In-game there really aren't consequences other than a single-round. this is a way, to sort of create that same situation.

There're consequences. Be rogue enough and that lovely MP team will make you spend the rest of the round locked in 3x3 cell. As for "other than a single-round" - everything is fine with it. After all, we're not playing metacharacters (aka repeat all actions in the same order over and over again without any alterations) and every new round is a bit different from previous one. As a good example: yesterday I had a SL who ordered our squad to form a firing line under direct gas bombardment and at later point yelled at us to stay in place and "WAIT FOR ORDERS WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING WITHOUT ORDERS" when marines 10 tiles away from us were dying defending the FOB we were standing in. I told him that I would rather take on janitorial duty he was threatening us with than follow his retarded orders, asked another SL to let me in her squad and had a nice hour full of alium murdering. That's 100% IC situation, same could be applied to retarded CO's orders like "Oh, well, we spent 600 cargo points building this FOB, let's retreat from it after first failed assault on enemy hive". In general, most of the time marines follow given orders and from my perspective it never was an issue if officers in question were decent. And being decent is what the whole whitelist thing is about, right?
Monoo pointed out possible OOC problems quite well, so I'm not going to double post those.

P.S. If added, this rule will basically nerf "morale" as important part of CM gameplay. Don't do this.

[Doc]

Their fault for leaving a gun on the table. All doors and vendors are otherwise ID-locked.

The Brig starts with several dozens of items across the entire room. Sometimes equipment can't be moved due to all MPs being occupied, not being enough MPs, or being too many prisoners to reliably keep away from all the equipment- anyway, none of this is really applicable to the general idea. No reasonable human being finds out they're going to be arrested for 15 minutes and then immediately goes for a gun to murder multiple ranking soldiers to try and escape it. This is obviously a problem of player-base perception of MPs and the seriousness (or lack thereof) regarding Marine Law.

[Karmac]

This appears to be deviating from the topic of Commanders to the topic of un-robust Marine Police. Please fix.

[Doc]

The topic is about Commanders enforcing Marine Law. Naturally it would include MPs in some manner. It's not even about MPs in particular, though, it's about how players disregard Marine Law because of those un-robust MPs. Even if the Commander is given the ability to enforce Marine Law (which, as of current rules, wouldn't even be allowed), how will they be able to do so without ridiculously overpowered abilities like being able to outright kill a marine if there's no force that will actually go and stop them? Without that force, there's no reason a marine should follow Marine Law at all, because there's nothing that can stop them. That's exactly what the topic is about.

[Recounted]

Command needs to do what the aztec did and do that for marines who disobeys orders. Best way to keep them in line is fear tactics

[Warnipple]

Give them a special tool that lets them poke out eyes.

[Toroic]

A thorough squanching.

[Egorkor]

This. I don't think CO's need snowflake punishment methods. If their men don't want to listen to them, they can do better next time.

a thousand fucking times this. banning/jobbanning people for shit like that is outright ridiculous, and is going to ohwoah son, create more salt and angst, but that's just what we need right?
I believe disobeying orders is already in the marine law, and if it's not, well fuckin' add it and make the MPs do their job and not be a den of lesbians that do nothing but fuck around with their buddies all round. If you're going to apply OOC punishment for IC actions - make it into a goddamn serverwide rule people are supposed to adhere to and enforce, then why the fuck do we even have MPs? Why not ban for every single thing, then? Where's the fucking fun in that?


tldr - let shit be figured out ICly and be up to the commander