Speed nerf, community opinion and civil speach

[Karmac]

To sum this up in a quick and easy couple of sentences:

[D] OOC: Apophis775: Marines: THESE NERFS ARE TOO STRONK
[D] OOC: Apophis775: >Still win more than half the rounds

[apophis775]

So far:

Rounds are still the same time (averaged)
Marines are still Slaughering Aliens slightly more than aliens slaughtering marines (despite complaints that "aliens win 90% of the time)
A few people have complained, many more have said they didn't see a difference.


But again, we are going to be tracking the rounds and closely monitoring how this stuff plays out.

You want this to be undone or rebalanced? THEY PLAY THE ROUNDS LIKE YOU NORMALLY WOULD AND DON'T TRY TO SUBVERT IT. Because if we see people are playing rounds normally (without acting Da mickey and it's effected things, instead of doing this:

MARINE ALWAY GET NURF, ME UPSET. HURR DURR IMA POWERGAME MY WAY AROUND THIS BALANCE

(Actual quote, minus the Hurr Durr)

It will be MANY MANY MANY MANY times more useful.


If you would like, I will happily release the RAW DATA of win/loss from December and any earlier months you wish. I'll also release Jan at the end of January.

[NoahKirchner]

So far:

Rounds are still the same time (averaged)
Marines are still Slaughering Aliens slightly more than aliens slaughtering marines (despite complaints that "aliens win 90% of the time)
A few people have complained, many more have said they didn't see a difference.


But again, we are going to be tracking the rounds and closely monitoring how this stuff plays out.

You want this to be undone or rebalanced? THEY PLAY THE ROUNDS LIKE YOU NORMALLY WOULD AND DON'T TRY TO SUBVERT IT. Because if we see people are playing rounds normally and it's effecting things opposed to:



It will be MANY MANY MANY MANY times more useful.


If you would like, I will happily release the RAW DATA of win/loss from December and any earlier months you wish. I'll also release Jan at the end of January.

A question unrelated to any stance that I may have, is the win rate taken from both highpop AND lowpop? Because there are major differences in how rounds play out between 120 players and 30 players.

[apophis775]

When I calculate "winrates" I do the following:

1. Remove all rounds that the Nuke killed everyone
2. Remove all rounds less than 90 minutes
3. Remove all rounds with less than 50 players (There's a round population tracker)

Then, I resort and organize between Alien and Marine wins, and count them up and end up with Marine and Alien ratios.



We use 50 for our balance number, because it's about 'average'.

[apophis775]

The nerf would be balanced by making xenos gradually slow down as they become more injured, so there's no more "barely alive but made it to weeds" bullshit escapes.

But I don't see that happening anytime soon.

That's actually now on the docket, for discussion in 2 weeks, after we've stabilized the Marine adjustments. But we can't just throw a whole bunch of balances on top of each other all at once. Game Balance is a tricky mistress.

[NoahKirchner]

When I calculate "winrates" I do the following:

1. Remove all rounds that the Nuke killed everyone
2. Remove all rounds less than 90 minutes
3. Remove all rounds with less than 50 players (There's a round population tracker)

Then, I resort and organize between Alien and Marine wins, and count them up and end up with Marine and Alien ratios.



We use 50 for our balance number, because it's about average.

50 is still getting into lowpop territory, and some rounds still play out differently that low (though nowhere near as much). Is it possible to release the method you use to obtain the data so we can mess around with it ourselves? This is a question unrelated to the topic at hand (still applicable but not why I'm asking), I am just curious about winrates in general. Unless it's some fancy admin tool then obviously nvm.

[apophis775]

50 is still getting into lowpop territory, and some rounds still play out differently that low (though nowhere near as much). Is it possible to release the method you use to obtain the data so we can mess around with it ourselves? This is a question unrelated to the topic at hand (still applicable but not why I'm asking), I am just curious about winrates in general. Unless it's some fancy admin tool then obviously nvm.

The method is literally that, at the end of the round the following is saved to a log:

Starting up - (TIME)
---------------------
VICTOR
Xenomorphs remaining: X. Humans remaining: X.
Round time: X:XX
Round population: X

Here's a sample (the round before the one that just ended):

Starting up - 2017-01-02 (15:40:03)
---------------------
Marine Major Victory
Xenomorphs remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 51.
Round time: 2:08
Round population: 129

[NoahKirchner]

The method is literally that, at the end of the round the following is saved to a log:

Starting up - (TIME)
---------------------
VICTOR
Xenomorphs remaining: X. Humans remaining: X.
Round time: X:XX
Round population: X

Here's a sample (the round before the one that just ended):

Starting up - 2017-01-02 (15:40:03)
---------------------
Marine Major Victory
Xenomorphs remaining: 0. Humans remaining: 51.
Round time: 2:08
Round population: 129

Now is the round population the maximum population in the round, every unique login, or the pop at the end of the round?

[apophis775]

Also, here if you want it:

http://pastebin.com/R9YjM6Ue


That's ALL the round data from 2015 (Not 2016, since that data is relevent and I've gotta make sure we are good releasing it)

We use that, as part of our balance calculations.

Also, "Round Population" should be the total unique "Log-ins", meaning, the total number of Ckeys who actually PLAYED (not counting people who just observed the whole game)

[apophis775]

Yeah. No-go on the 2016 data for the moment. Though, I'll clarify:


1. We ONLY usually check "small" areas at a time. For example, comparing one week to another
2. We NEVER go more than a 30-day chunk at a time (unless comparing 2 30 day chunks)
3. we added the population counter in 2016, so it's missing from 2015.

Really, we go at our analysis fairly scientifically, but only compare select data sets to avoid a general "GIANT" win/loss ratio that is barely impacted. By doing it week-to-week or month-to-month we get much more accurate findings. We will also frequently run checks of 7 days before a balance change and the 7 days after, as well as sometimes skipping the day before, day of, and day after while the changes "settle" the new Meta


There's a LOT more that goes into it, but I don't want to give too much away.

[apophis775]

There's also all sorts of outliers that we take into account, such as school breaks, greytide surges, server events, all sorts of stuff.

[NoahKirchner]

Yeah. No-go on the 2016 data for the moment. Though, I'll clarify:


1. We ONLY usually check "small" areas at a time. For example, comparing one week to another
2. We NEVER go more than a 30-day chunk at a time (unless comparing 2 30 day chunks)
3. we added the population counter in 2016, so it's missing from 2015.

Really, we go at our analysis fairly scientifically, but only compare select data sets to avoid a general "GIANT" win/loss ratio that is barely impacted. By doing it week-to-week or month-to-month we get much more accurate findings. We will also frequently run checks of 7 days before a balance change and the 7 days after, as well as sometimes skipping the day before, day of, and day after while the changes "settle" the new Meta


There's a LOT more that goes into it, but I don't want to give too much away.

Alright, thank you very much. I like going through and digging through forums or analyzing statistics like that and trying to figure out all I can, so I appreciate the logs even if they're from 2015. Hopefully soon the 2016 ones will be released after it's no longer relevant.

[Renomaki]

Since this post, marine speeds have been adjusted to be more tolerable. I kinda like where they are as of now.

I only hope things get better from here, though. All this salt over speed was putting me in a bad mood.

[Simo94]

I tried the most recent update and I gotta say I like this as it is now

[NoahKirchner]

I tried the most recent update and I gotta say I like this as it is now

I haven't played the most recent tweak, but I'm hearing good things thus far and hopefully it's been tweaked enough to where it encourages squads pushing but discourages running straight at the xenos.

[Shyguychizzy]

I haven't played the most recent tweak, but I'm hearing good things thus far and hopefully it's been tweaked enough to where it encourages squads pushing but discourages running straight at the xenos.

The recent tweak i say is quite bearable...though you can notice the speed nerf. Never ever eat too much foods you be slow as how it originally was implemented,if your lucky can dodge a charge charging full sprint or getting outta the way of a pouncing hunter if you are quick enough. Though once your wounded it is back to the original speed. Once your wounded your basically fucked...I mean the smallest of injuries for instance some acid damage all of a sudden your slow. Thats about it though I believe some or certain armor speed should be implemented or changed for instance B12 speed it should be atleast regular speed being light armor, but thats my personal opinion

[NoahKirchner]

The recent tweak i say is quite bearable...though you can notice the speed nerf. Never ever eat too much foods you be slow as how it originally was implemented,if your lucky can dodge a charge charging full sprint or getting outta the way of a pouncing hunter if you are quick enough. Though once your wounded it is back to the original speed. Once your wounded your basically fucked...I mean the smallest of injuries for instance some acid damage all of a sudden your slow. Thats about it though I believe some or certain armor speed should be implemented or changed for instance B12 speed it should be atleast regular speed being light armor, but thats my personal opinion

From what you're saying the speed nerf sounds very bearable. Think I'm gonna play a xeno round now just to see how it is fighting the marines, and then I'll play a marine one tommorow to test actual speeds and what not.

[apophis775]

The "recent tweak" was actually uploaded yesterday, just not compiled. I had thought it was put it.

[NoahKirchner]

The speed nerf is much more bearable now that it's been ever made a bit faster. Still encourages a bit more turtling, but anything that discouages running up to a xeno with buckshot is gonna do that a little.

[Crab_Spider]

The speed nerf is much more bearable now that it's been ever made a bit faster. Still encourages a bit more turtling, but anything that discouages running up to a xeno with buckshot is gonna do that a little.

Are we ever going to nerf buckshot ?

[Karmac]

Are we ever going to nerf buckshot ?

The stun time was already greatly reduced to counter buckshot rambos. Don't ruin it.

[Crab_Spider]

The stun time was already greatly reduced to counter buckshot rambos. Don't ruin it.

Looks like I'm going to have to make another shitpost

[Karmac]

As it is Buckshot might be good, but it's got next to no range, you need to know how to aim it to actually get the full appreciation of its damage and it might not even stun the elite runner that just popped out from a vent right next to you, once combat hugging is sorted I would strongly suggest not going near shotgun users, the inability to knock them out instantly means you WILL die more from being near them, especially if they run with a mag harness. Also your maturity DOES increase the stun resistance you get in regard to buckshot, so Ancient Hunters will most likely not be deterred by one or two marines using it.

[Umber]

Honestly, in its current form, I haven't even noticed the speed nerf all that much hus far. It's actually been pretty enjoyable as far as I've played as 'rine. It used to be horrible. But yeah, @ Carmac's right. Shotgun buckshot is decently viable right now and I use it purely for defense whenever we're cramped somewhere, but if combat hugging gets the changes I've been hearing, sounds like it'll be king.

[BalancedGeneral]

Sad to see Apop turned tail and cucked about the speed nerf because his beloved marines cried so much about a valid change.

Back to sanic speed full armed and armored marines, 10/10 design foresight.