Official Cloning Removal Update Discussion Thread

[Dogar]

Hey, that's a pretty good idea! Thanks for the hot tip!

[Joe4444]

Escape, get to friendly territory, shoot yourself a bunch of times.

Kills you and the larvae in you but allows you to be defib'd if medics are competent.

Pretty sure its a bug, but its the only way to survive since surgery takes way too long and bursting ends your round forever.

and watch as the admins laugh and ban you for meta gaming.

[Swagile]

and watch as the admins laugh and ban you for meta gaming.

not if you watched your buddies burst / you know that xenos infect via chest bursters / survivors told you everything and know that on death of host, chest burster dies

[Harakoni warhawk]

not if you watched your buddies burst / you know that xenos infect via chest bursters / survivors told you everything and know that on death of host, chest burster dies

How can you do that without suiciding though?
Would you not just bludgeon yourself instead of shooting, might as well use your boot knife on your face to cut off your oxygen.

[Swagile]

How can you do that without suiciding though?
Would you not just bludgeon yourself instead of shooting, might as well use your boot knife on your face to cut off your oxygen.

Yeah, either target specific parts of your body so you don't have to worry about broken bones, or bludgeon / shoot yourself enough.

[Harakoni warhawk]

Yeah, either target specific parts of your body so you don't have to worry about broken bones, or bludgeon / shoot yourself enough.

From what admins have said, it's meta gaming and grounds for a ban, which is ironic when Xeno Meta gaming at round start caused me to ahelp that question.

[Swagile]

From what admins have said, it's meta gaming and grounds for a ban, which is ironic when Xeno Meta gaming at round start caused me to ahelp that question.

Sounds like a shitty standard if you watch your boys burst infront of you and decide to end it all when you finally escape.

All ruined because "BOINK" "WHY YOU METAGAMING XD"

[Harakoni warhawk]

Sounds like a shitty standard if you watch your boys burst infront of you and decide to end it all when you finally escape.

All ruined because "BOINK" "WHY YOU METAGAMING XD"

Had a round where my SL blew his head off before we even landed on the planet, by the end of the round I was wishing I had too.
Being Kirov is Suffering.

[Feweh]

Escape, get to friendly territory, shoot yourself a bunch of times.

Kills you and the larvae in you but allows you to be defib'd if medics are competent.

Pretty sure its a bug, but its the only way to survive since surgery takes way too long and bursting ends your round forever.

Doing this will is the definition of power-gaming and will result in a ban.

It was the same for killing yourself to be cloned instead of getting surgery to heal.

[Swagile]

Doing this will is the definition of power-gaming and will result in a ban.

It was the same for killing yourself to be cloned instead of getting surgery to heal.

I don't see how its powergaming when your devs have still not added a way around the fact that you can't defib chest bursted people.

Cloning allowed this so if you actually escaped due to poor xeno guarding, then you'd be all dandy.

Now, if you manage to escape, there is no way your going to get surgery done on you fast enough unless you escaped from a nest right next to LZ1 or FOB with medical, and that is such a slim chance that you might as well just suicide.

But alright, I won't do it, but I definitely think its a shitty double standard.

[Feweh]

I don't see how its powergaming when your devs have still not added a way around the fact that you can't defib chest bursted people.

Cloning allowed this so if you actually escaped due to poor xeno guarding, then you'd be all dandy..

Thats actually exactly why cloning was removed. So its not so much a lack of thought, but actual intent that bursted and nested people are game-over.

[Swagile]

Thats actually exactly why cloning was removed. So its not so much a lack of thought, but actual intent that bursted and nested people are game-over.

Which further increases the hugger combat meta and makes it almost impossible to win on the marine side.

Maybe its just me, but removing cloning without any reparations that made cloning so good and calling it "intended" sounds pretty dumb to me, especially since devs keep hinting to "hugger combat being removed soon [TM]" yet decide to nerf the marines even further with this change instead of tackling hugger combat first.

[Feweh]

Which further increases the hugger combat meta and makes it almost impossible to win on the marine side.

Maybe its just me, but removing cloning without any reparations that made cloning so good and calling it "intended" sounds pretty dumb to me, especially since devs keep hinting to "hugger combat being removed soon [TM]" yet decide to nerf the marines even further with this change instead of tackling hugger combat first.

To be fair, it was more the community who started the whole "Hugger combat will be removed with cloning and if not it's coming soon!".
It's planned, but as far as I'm aware is behind a few other updates.

[Harakoni warhawk]

As soon as Cloning was removed, the amount of Xenos deliberately decapping Marines rose.
Nothing is more fun that Xenos decapping Marines so they can't be defibbed, what with Doctors on the Surface being a rare sight and Medics facing bans if they perform Surgery.
As soon as Hugger combat gets removed, decap meta will rise to take its place.

[Swagile]

To be fair, it was more the community who started the whole "Hugger combat will be removed with cloning and if not it's coming soon!".
It's planned, but as far as I'm aware is behind a few other updates.

Seeing as we've been playing a lot of Ice Colony, I will give you an example of why the hugger combat meta is so much stronger now due to no cloning instead of talking out my ass.

I was a Carrier on Ice during a 3 hour long round (we've went through 2 queens by now) and we were hiding underground to recoup our numbers. The marines found our base and started a full on attack (SW near Underground Medbay).

Using my face huggers I was able to push back the offensive two times by myself. How? Because id snipe one or two marines with a hugger and retreat back into cover, which removes their helmets. Then id come out again and get one or two marines with huggers.

This doesn't sound too bad, right? The problem is that this puts FOUR marines out of action for quite a while due to how huggers work as two other marines had to stop firing and bring them back into cover. This tactic kept going until I had live infected within the marine ranks because they couldn't get the huggers off of their faces faster enough while trying to keep me back.

Its now game mover for that push. Again, why? During cloning, if they bursted in combat, they could still be revive and marines kept fighting. Now, though, they either retreat and get nabbed by a xeno and dragged back to the hive because they retreated alone, or they stay and permanently leave the round a couple minutes later when they burst in live combat. Hence they are forced to completely retreat or lose the battle while marines around them burst (and most of them never made it back to surgery fast enough).

Again, this example does not extend to simply marines pushing on xeno's; this happens when xenos push human FOB's and even the LZ1, either due to the lack of a competent doctor on the ground, or the doctor is overworked.

These are just the side effects of removing cloning, which makes pushes so much harder to coordinate (at least on Ice Colony, and it seems to be getting run everytime im on, so thats all the examples I can provide).

[slc97]

Pushes should be hard to coordinate. Marines are not a one man army where they can just run about willy-nilly trying to kill xenos. They should be scared of dying, and they should be scared of permadeath. Marines need to be tactical to win. Xenos have the brute force advantage, marines need to fight smarter, not harder.

[Kyrac]

I think marines should fight smarter by not standing in ones lane of fire, and actually look down ladders once in a while. tbh.

[Swagile]

Pushes should be hard to coordinate. Marines are not a one man army where they can just run about willy-nilly trying to kill xenos. They should be scared of dying, and they should be scared of permadeath. Marines need to be tactical to win. Xenos have the brute force advantage, marines need to fight smarter, not harder.

I never said marines are a one man army, and you clearly did not read my example. The example I provided was a coordinate push by at least 10 people in one squad, and just due to the effects of cloning gone + hugger combat + bad balancing to fix that problem lead to me solo pushing an entire 10 man squad back two times as a Carrier.

That isn't supposed to happen, but marines can't push if they know they will be gone forever from the round. Which leads to stale rounds of people ladder camping, and promoting that type of gameplay is really bad for the long term. Not everyone enjoys two hours of staring at ladders / empty space from an FOB until xenos are ready to rush with all upgraded tiers.

[slc97]

No, I read your example. A single 10 man squad isn't going to make superb amounts of headway against the xeno force. It takes a tactical assault using multiple squads at one time to properly fight as marines now, which is how it should be.

[Feweh]

Honestly I've always viewed the Marines as the brute strength and numbers... Xenos being the ones who need more skills and tactics.

Anyone can shoot a gun and kill a xeno... It's a lot harder to be a good xeno player for first time players.

[Karmac]

I have no doubt it's difficult to play xeno, but marines can't even make it onto the planet sometimes with griefers, accidents and just plain stupidity getting in their way, and all three of those issues don't stop being a problem once you finally do hit the dirt...

[slc97]

Honestly I've always viewed the Marines as the brute strength and numbers... Xenos being the ones who need more skills and tactics.

Anyone can shoot a gun and kill a xeno... It's a lot harder to be a good xeno player for first time players.

I suck at xeno. It's definitely hard to play xeno, but they do have the stronger outfit. Marines have the numbers, but die so easily that the numbers advantage is almost negligible. The difference I've seen between marine tactics and xeno tactics is that xenos tend to be able to stick to pretty simple hit and run style tactics with some slight maneuvering. Marines on the other hand, have an entire command staff for the reason that they really need to be more tactical. If you want to win as marine, the squads need to be working in unison, and the tactics have to be much more complicated than run here, hit one or two, and get out like xeno tactics can be.

[MrJJJ]

Pushes should be hard to coordinate. Marines are not a one man army where they can just run about willy-nilly trying to kill xenos. They should be scared of dying, and they should be scared of permadeath. Marines need to be tactical to win. Xenos have the brute force advantage, marines need to fight smarter, not harder.

Already failed, you have multiple el robusto people that can kill xenos and be one man army, sorry, also like Feweh said, Marines have greater numbers, xenos don't exactly have a brute force advantage, just using the shit out of their abilities when the time is right and retreating just right, just doing everything just right.

[NoahKirchner]

I like it as it is now for the most part, but just a small nitpick.

I heard somethin' about larvas still gestating in marines even after they're dead. I was thinking, maybe have commiting suicide via the mouth command flag you as suicidal (which means you can't be defibbed), so that people can't powergame with it, but still allow suicide as an alternative for free marines who don't wanna die to bursting.

Not really big enough to be a suggestion, just a lil' thing.

[Crab_Spider]

Already failed, you have multiple el robusto people that can kill xenos and be one man army, sorry, also like Feweh said, Marines have greater numbers, xenos don't exactly have a brute force advantage, just using the shit out of their abilities when the time is right and retreating just right, just doing everything just right.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but there is no such thing as a one man army in CM, there are people that get plot armor and people that makes others so stupid, the plot is drunk.