Findings since the temporary update

Generic, on-topic discussion about Colonial Marines.
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Feweh
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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by Feweh » 09 Feb 2017, 15:51

Swagile wrote:Yet you don't enforce meta rushing and metagaming rules on Xenos, which is what I am trying to argue.
But this your problem Swagile, you don't understand what meta-gaming is or the lore of the Aliens universe?

I explained why it's not meta-rushing or meta-gaming for aliens to do what they do.
You just completely ignored my previous post despite me explaining to you in detail that;

1. Alien control the entire colony and can go anywhere from round start.
2. They share a hive-mind, so upon hatching they know everything about marines.
3. We enforce meta-gaming/meta-rushing to maintain RP and Medium RP Standards.

For aliens to not be allowed to meta-rush they'd have to be privy to the same restrictions the humans have knowledge wise. However the xenos already have this knowledge, so it's not against the rules for them to attack marines instantly as they control the entire colony and see them land. Xenos have already encountered humans upon Marines first landing, they understand their basics and mechanics. Marines have NEVER seen Xenos before, they know absolutely NOTHING about them and need to learn the basics from seeing xenos after they land.

I don't mean this in an insulting way, but please in the future if you're going to argue game-play... at least be educated on the Lore and Rules.
Not understanding basic mechanic, lores and rules really destroys your opinion and credibility.

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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by Renomaki » 09 Feb 2017, 15:57

Feweh wrote:Whoa there, must of missed the democratic movement recently.
Well, this is a TEST build, so one can't help but feel like sharing opinions on certain features before reverting to the original build. It gives the coders an idea of what to work on. If we said nothing, then what is the point of doing the test for a week to begin with?

I don't know what the true vision of the staff for the hugger-combatless update in the future is, but I'm going to at least attempt to steer it in a direction that feels fair for everyone. And even if it goes ignored, at least I provided input.
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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by Swagile » 09 Feb 2017, 16:55

Feweh wrote:But this your problem Swagile, you don't understand what meta-gaming is or the lore of the Aliens universe?

I explained why it's not meta-rushing or meta-gaming for aliens to do what they do.
You just completely ignored my previous post despite me explaining to you in detail that;

1. Alien control the entire colony and can go anywhere from round start.
2. They share a hive-mind, so upon hatching they know everything about marines.
3. We enforce meta-gaming/meta-rushing to maintain RP and Medium RP Standards.

For aliens to not be allowed to meta-rush they'd have to be privy to the same restrictions the humans have knowledge wise. However the xenos already have this knowledge, so it's not against the rules for them to attack marines instantly as they control the entire colony and see them land. Xenos have already encountered humans upon Marines first landing, they understand their basics and mechanics. Marines have NEVER seen Xenos before, they know absolutely NOTHING about them and need to learn the basics from seeing xenos after they land.

I don't mean this in an insulting way, but please in the future if you're going to argue game-play... at least be educated on the Lore and Rules.
Not understanding basic mechanic, lores and rules really destroys your opinion and credibility.
Again if we argue lore, we can argue that marines will never ever win because lore wise, the aliens are MUCH stronger than they are on CM.

But on CM, aliens have been tweaked to be at least defeatable because this is a GAME, and gameplay comes first over lore. If gameplay did not go first over lore, you wouldn't have any players, as no one would want to play on the Marine side and without any Marines to fight, Xeno players would leave as well.

I am arguing gameplay here, not lore or rules. In a gameplay sense, allowing xeno's all of this knowledge round start while depriving marines of said knowledge creates a HUGE gap that is already big enough considering the xenos collective ability to fuck up the marines if they are decent and marines aren't at least 90% competent.

The fact that xenos can rush Engineering, Tcomms (if ice colony), and LZ1 (all maps) without any punishment early on in the round while marines can't do the same makes it incredibly difficult for marines to form any type of counter play as all of the above locations are essential in any long term combat planetside. They cannot strike essential xeno areas (caves, deep underground in Ice) with their full force without being banned while xenos can bring almost their entire force to said locations without any problems. Literally the only problem that xenos face is their inability to build right on the LZ1 the moment marines touch down; everything else goes.

Giving such an immense tactical advantage to xeno players (who already have MANY advantages round start) without giving marines proper counter play against it is shitty game design and leads to retreats to Sulaco early on then a slow death by atmos, rinse and repeat.
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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by caleeb101 » 09 Feb 2017, 17:26

I dunno if I'm right here but if the game was more lore accurate, wouldn't the whole 'evolution' system xenos have be untrue? I swear only specific types of xenos pop from specific creatures. Like the runner popping from a dog? Or was it a cow? Memory is foggy.
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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by Heckenshutze » 09 Feb 2017, 17:50

I'd like to add something here not regarding huggers or such, Defibs need to be a lot better than it is now. It's still hard mode to bring a marine alive and keep him alive outside the sulaco.
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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by Swagile » 09 Feb 2017, 18:26

Heckenshutze wrote:I'd like to add something here not regarding huggers or such, Defibs need to be a lot better than it is now. It's still hard mode to bring a marine alive and keep him alive outside the sulaco.
How so?

The only instances where defib doesn't work is huggers (cloning cloned you past this, so big nerf), decap (a method used by most T3's, so another big nerf), flamed (carry a fire extinguisher and instantly haze them down), and being dead for more than 5 minutes (usually means the marine got dragged off / went rambo anyway).
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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by Heckenshutze » 09 Feb 2017, 22:09

Swagile wrote:How so?

The only instances where defib doesn't work is huggers (cloning cloned you past this, so big nerf), decap (a method used by most T3's, so another big nerf), flamed (carry a fire extinguisher and instantly haze them down), and being dead for more than 5 minutes (usually means the marine got dragged off / went rambo anyway).
Even if they threated your wounds and being 'fresh' you're still very capable of dying again as soon you get shocked (fading to white screen), and since medic players come and go, not everyone knows how to properly defib someone (guides are outdated too) maybe not just a buff but make it simpler to do
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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by Swagile » 09 Feb 2017, 22:13

Heckenshutze wrote:Even if they threated your wounds and being 'fresh' you're still very capable of dying again as soon you get shocked (fading to white screen), and since medic players come and go, not everyone knows how to properly defib someone (guides are outdated too) maybe not just a buff but make it simpler to do
It would be nice if defibs injected dexalin + tricord + peri into you in a small dose that would allow you to at least do something, but in return half the amount of uses the defib has so you have to constantly go back to get it recharged so its not a insta respawn button.
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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by nerocavalier » 10 Feb 2017, 00:17

Heckenshutze wrote:Even if they threated your wounds and being 'fresh' you're still very capable of dying again as soon you get shocked (fading to white screen), and since medic players come and go, not everyone knows how to properly defib someone (guides are outdated too) maybe not just a buff but make it simpler to do
On the bright side, this resets your timer and lets those medics know that you're worth trying to save.

It's not hard to keep someone alive unless they have massive internal organ damage which'll make them die hilariously fast. Ideally, you'd inject them with quickclot before defibbing if they have internal bleeding after applying as much adv. kits as you can. This way, you can heal them immediately again with trauma kits to swoop them away from death's door.

Altenatively, apply bicaridine, tricordrazine, and inaprovaline to their corpse before you defib. You have enough time for a pill or an autoinjector before the timer runs out, usually.
Troublesome, as usual.

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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by JDresdin » 10 Feb 2017, 02:00

I would like to weigh in.

I think I may even be the carrier who was laughing about frenzy on weeds in dchat, that was mentioned earlier, lol. I must have infected 20+ marines that round on high pop, but in the end was a marine major.

Watching the new metas evolve is interesting. The same way carriers have become indespensible, so have combat surgeons. On that marine major we had 3+ carriers tossing out huggers nonstop, effeciently and accurately. Tunnels leading back to egg field, a queen who made nonstop eggs, the works.

It was nowhere near enough to keep up with the surgeons or the incredibly robust marine meta, and it even had the effect of creating immune rambos left and right. We also had a sever lack of xeno players. Marines invaded caves while we had 10+ braindead larva and most field bursts were braindead and quickly killed as well.With the carrier heavy hive we suffered from lack of warriors, and in the end got cornered in NE caves and wiped.

I personally like the changes but I think it could use some tweaks of course. I think eggs should be cheaper, helmets should protect hugs like before, larva incubation time should be extended if not nested, and field surgeons should be nerfed (perhaps with common infections from operating on planet, LV is filthy and a jungle afterall). Just my 2 cents.

Cheers!

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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by Obscurify » 10 Feb 2017, 02:10

From my findings it really depends on competent marines. If you have a competent spec with a SADAR, you can punch massive holes in the xeno's offensive AND defensive. I've found that I can actually avoid the carriers (insta-hug) by just not moving all together instead of sprinting away, if I have the room to do so. However with this recent update the carriers were nerfed a decent bit, so we'll see how that goes. It also depends on a firm command as well as marines following their damn SL's directions. I have seen entire squads splinter and falter because they refuse to do the simplest things such as regroup. If you have competent specialists, engineer's, squad leaders, and command, you can pretty much guarantee a win if you have enough marines. I could add a lot more but I don't feel like it right now because it's 1 AM where I live.
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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by Karmac » 10 Feb 2017, 03:30

JDresdin wrote:and field surgeons should be nerfed (perhaps with common infections from operating on planet, LV is filthy and a jungle afterall). Just my 2 cents.

Cheers!
If you aren't using proper equipment or gear your patient has a more or less 100% chance to get an infection and evem with gear the rate seems pretty high, I've walked into medical before and found serious infections on three patients that had been cured of all other wounds. It's nasty.
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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by Redikalzip » 10 Feb 2017, 05:32

You need to increase the time for defib drom 5 to 7-10 minutes. As during rush Xeno or at the time when we don't have doctors - you just die.
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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by Swagile » 10 Feb 2017, 07:21

Yeah I was on during the round where Kyomi and another doctor were planetside and doing de-larvae surgery left and right.

I was a combat medic giving out antibiotic pills to people who got hugged and shaking them up, then directing them to Nexus. They'd come back ready to fight with a new helmet in 2-3 mins, depending on the line waiting to be de-larvae'd and the obstacles in their way to make it back to the battlefield.

It was a great medical win tbh, since without groundside doctors you'd be forced to have people go up to Sulaco, which would end in them bursting.
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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by CrimsonAerospace » 11 Feb 2017, 12:22

It's official, this is now in the test for the remainder...

We must pray for mercy...

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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by Jroinc1 » 11 Feb 2017, 13:07

CrimsonAerospace wrote:It's official, this is now in the test for the remainder...

We must pray for mercy...

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At last, an enemy worthy of making my SM warhead...
Mentor-
3 Nov 16-15 Jan 17

Atmos bombs built- 16
Hull breaches repaired- 6
Charged SMs manually dragged to space- 2
Backup tcomms systems set- 4
SM de-lamination weapons detonated- 0
Times I've burned half the ship to a crisp- 5
Times I've burned half the ship to a crisp ACCIDENTALLY- 2
Engine SMs de-laminated on my watch- 0

Upper deck engines made-1
Lower deck engines made-1

Total kills with SM- 6

Most surgeries done at once- 3
Most anesthetic tanks used in a round- 3
Most surgeries done using only personal supplies- 37
Most perdiox made w/in 5 min of roundstart- 540u

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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by nerocavalier » 11 Feb 2017, 17:42

Jroinc1 wrote:At last, an enemy worthy of making my SM warhead...
SM de-lamination weapons detonated- 0 1

Can't wait.
Troublesome, as usual.

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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by Jroinc1 » 11 Feb 2017, 20:15

nerocavalier wrote:
SM de-lamination weapons detonated- 0 1

Can't wait.
I honestly don't want to do it, it's gonna be stupid-dangerous... :D
Mentor-
3 Nov 16-15 Jan 17

Atmos bombs built- 16
Hull breaches repaired- 6
Charged SMs manually dragged to space- 2
Backup tcomms systems set- 4
SM de-lamination weapons detonated- 0
Times I've burned half the ship to a crisp- 5
Times I've burned half the ship to a crisp ACCIDENTALLY- 2
Engine SMs de-laminated on my watch- 0

Upper deck engines made-1
Lower deck engines made-1

Total kills with SM- 6

Most surgeries done at once- 3
Most anesthetic tanks used in a round- 3
Most surgeries done using only personal supplies- 37
Most perdiox made w/in 5 min of roundstart- 540u

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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by InterroLouis » 11 Feb 2017, 20:34

Jroinc1 wrote:I honestly don't want to do it, it's gonna be stupid-dangerous... :D
That is why you are going to do it :D

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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by apophis775 » 13 Feb 2017, 13:20

Again, as the announcement said, we were expecting Xenos to get totally wrecked, that didn't happen.

Next round, it'll be back to normal, and we'll start analyzing all our data so we can see what worked/didn't work and what needs adjustments/doesn't need adjustment.

We'll have a new test ready soon.
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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by caleeb101 » 13 Feb 2017, 14:42

apophis775 wrote:Again, as the announcement said, we were expecting Xenos to get totally wrecked, that didn't happen.

Next round, it'll be back to normal, and we'll start analyzing all our data so we can see what worked/didn't work and what needs adjustments/doesn't need adjustment.

We'll have a new test ready soon.
Can I make a new thread on the findings since the I guess.. de-update? With Hugger combat added basically.
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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by solidfury7 » 13 Feb 2017, 15:32

Personally, I think they should keep hugger-combat removal on and just keep tweaking it now and then to compare it.

Most the server loves the change.
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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by Sailor Dave » 13 Feb 2017, 15:34

Even though the xenos performed about the same as before the test, at least from a casual glance, how would you all rate the experience in comparison? Even though xenos were still winning the majority, was it still more enjoyable to actually play, or do you think it was worse in some way?

Speaking for myself, it was definitely weird at first adjusting to not carrying huggers around, and it made capturing much harder on the front lines if the queen/drones weren't on the ball with eggs and nests, since it was usually too far a distance to bring them all the way back to the hive. I usually aim to capture and not kill, so I've definitely killed more than I have in the past. The choice to kill or capture is much harder to make, and is almost not a choice at all unless you have a group with you.

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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by Swagile » 13 Feb 2017, 15:43

It was much more enjoyable to be honest.

Id rather die to pounce and tackle spam, with a CHANCE at actually living, than being double huggered then decapped during the ONE MINUTE KO.

Carrier needs some fixes to it, but either then that, no hugger combat was great.
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Re: Findings since the temporary update

Post by Karmac » 13 Feb 2017, 16:28

Swagile wrote:It was much more enjoyable to be honest.

Id rather die to pounce and tackle spam, with a CHANCE at actually living, than being double huggered then decapped during the ONE MINUTE KO.

Carrier needs some fixes to it, but either then that, no hugger combat was great.
This was basically my experience as well.
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