April 2 constructing changes discussion

[Monoo]

Imagine the FF

I'm not sure you were around in the manned MG's prime, but FF rarely occurred. MGs were set up in a deliberate chokepoint, with nothing in between them and potential xenos.

Anybody that knowingly steps between a manned machine gun and a killzone deserves all the FF tbh

[Crab_Spider]

I'm not sure you were around in the manned MG's prime, but FF rarely occurred. MGs were set up in a deliberate chokepoint, with nothing in between them and potential xenos.

Anybody that knowingly steps between a manned machine gun and a killzone deserves all the FF tbh

From what I gathered, they worked because the chokepoints were by default, small corridors and hallways, something that negates the ability for assault castes to dodge effectively.

[KingKire]

@ZDashe

Hacking doors
-im also adding in the time it takes to switch tools, and the amount of clicks you need to get the job done. If you add it all together, hacking may be faster, but i really dont want carpal tunnel syndrome (hehe) and somedays its just nice to click twice and be done with something, even if its a sloppier way. I think it adds a little character flavor as well to see how a player approaches a problem such as a locked door. (Do i cleanly hack the panels , look for another entrance, messily weld out the wall next to it, or just say fuck-it and toss some c4 on there.)

Deconstructing walls
-I think that xenos also have the problem of unrealistic build times (magic-wall syndrome) but, in the hopes of a better future, im hoping some nerfs to engineers will allow for nerfs to aliens to also take place, giving the game a healthier state. I am not a fan of aliens being allowed to instantly build structures, and i think it causes some weird lore-breaks to happen. (Drones weeding *every* tile around, several dozen walls being built right in front of an active marine fireline, etc). I didnt think about it applying to generators, but now that i hear it, it actually does sound like a good idea. Engineers shouldnt be welding 3 different generators all at the same time. Boys gotta slow down and watch his welds, hehe.

False walls:
-It's true, false walls really shouldnt be used as primary entrances. On the plus side though, you can still wrench the wall into a regular wall immediately, so false walls act more like "emergency barriers", which i think is perfectly reasonable. Also, having glass would be great at round start.

Fixing helmets
- well the joy of resin paste is that its instant, and that it doesn't impose a vision penalty for use. I personally think research items are pretty undertuned currently, and there was a nice idea floating around that resin paste would add an extra point of durability to whatever it was used on, which i really liked.

Sandbags
-I like to think that sandbags would fill a nice gap that we currently have between tables and plasteel barriers. Currently, Tables are quick to set up, but since you cant stack them, you cant really "pick-up and go" without wasting alot of time and metal tearing the tables back up. Barriers are very very strong, but they are rare, and they are essentially unmovable. Although sandbags take longer then tables to be set up, the fact that you can stack them means that you can take them apart in bulk and move them up without too much lost effort/materials. This means engineers can be more mobile without sacrificing too much metal or time.

Razor wires
- It would be a very small marine nerf in exchange for a large net-gain. e-grills do an insane amount of damage and stunning when marines bump into them, equivalent to half your health or more. Razor wires would do a paultry sum of damage, likely 5-10% brute damage. The main use of razor wires is to slow down enemies, not to kill them. I.E runners/hunters should run around the razor wire instead of right through it.

[Bigchilly]

Just going to pump out a list of some possibly interesting things that could be added.

Possibly interesting things to make engineers more required/intersting:

- (Dev intensive) Require door hacking to be done via a Comtech hacking device which could be some kind of mini game or what have you. Only engineers could use it and it would be needed for powered and unpowered doors. (However if this does go in survivors may need to spawn with them or having it so crowbarring a de-powered airlock is still in just it takes a longer time then using the hacking tool, in-theory.)

- Previously mentioned but Sandbags would be pretty interesting to see as we've already got the sprites for them in WO, just need a construction/deconstruction method.

- Being able to construct a HQ Tent, which would have a wall mounted bounced radio to the ship inside of it to allow for communication with command in case Comms has failed planetside and perhaps other things but that's all I can think of besides it also acting as a base HQ for the SL's to plan their moves or the Xo/Co to sit in etc.

- Tank Traps could be something of interest for an engineer to build. (More info about how tank traps may work in CM in the hyperlink.)

There are a few other things as well which I'm not sure of so I haven't added them to the list.

just gonna pop in here and say that this is great

also, mgs are going to be alot weaker when it comes to LV, its more open, boilers are more effective, and can be flanked alot easier (that is if its not inside or integrated into a FOB, which it should tbh).

i kinda like the mg vs sentry idea btw. (hey did u know the turret has a manual firing mode? shhhhh, nobody knows that.)

[Roadkill195]

As someone who exclusively play's engineer the whole 7 steps to take down a regular wall feels like you may have over done it a bit, 2 steps to 7 is such a massive jump having tested it ingame with the amount of time it now takes with not even any instant steps it feels like an eternity to take down one measly wall for such a low reward and on top of having to use your welder multiple times now consuming more fuel it seems pretty apparent to me you've made deconstructing walls completely unviable as a reasonable option anymore whether it be to cut your way to an escape route or gather supplies it turns walls into more or less R walls with the now labor intensive process, I implore you revise this change and scale it back a touch change is needed but in smaller doses in my opinion.

[Karmac]

If not MG's, then a buff to Sentry Guns would be well appreciated, as they are they only exist as a deterrent to younger castes, anything elite or even T3 Mature won't be bothered by them as it stands, and considering that these turrets are your only defense against those tougher aliens aside from the whole four specialists you get, they could definitely pack a little more punch in my opinion. Instead of using tactics and working their way around my sentry gun emplacements, usually they just run right up to it with 2-3 xenos and harass my defense lines, and then walk away with relatively low damage taken.

[Katsukai]

If not MG's, then a buff to Sentry Guns would be well appreciated, as they are they only exist as a deterrent to younger castes, anything elite or even T3 Mature won't be bothered by them as it stands, and considering that these turrets are your only defense against those tougher aliens aside from the whole four specialists you get, they could definitely pack a little more punch in my opinion. Instead of using tactics and working their way around my sentry gun emplacements, usually they just run right up to it with 2-3 xenos and harass my defense lines, and then walk away with relatively low damage taken.

I personally think they do enough damage as it is, tho the 360 sensor mode is rather pathetic, they could buff it's range for about 2 more tiles.

[Karmac]

As it stands two full bursts isn't enough to put down a mature carrier, which is a T2 skirmisher that really shouldn't be capable of taking that much damage and still be able to walk it off. The only thing it deters are T1's and Young T2's.

[Crab_Spider]

As it stands two full bursts isn't enough to put down a mature carrier, which is a T2 skirmisher that really shouldn't be capable of taking that much damage and still be able to walk it off. The only thing it deters are T1's and Young T2's.

2 bursts will actually knock them down to their 2nd wind, remember, drone castes and Praetorians should ALWAYS have a bit of skepticism regarding what damage they've taken, they have 2 pheromones that regenerate health or reduce damage (%)

[MrJJJ]

2 bursts will actually knock them down to their 2nd wind, remember, drone castes and Praetorians should ALWAYS have a bit of skepticism regarding what damage they've taken, they have 2 pheromones that regenerate health or reduce damage (%)

Define 2nd wind...

And a reminder, that the sentry damage still stands, the only castes that die from one burst is young t1's, by elite they will survive it, t2's require nearly two bursts, and by mature/elite may require 2 bursts and a additional shot or two, don't even get me started on crusher, who combines with boiler to make the sentry unable to shoot him, then ram the tables and get to it to knock it down/destroy it, fucking reeeeee.

[Katsukai]

Define 2nd wind...

And a reminder, that the sentry damage still stands, the only castes that die from one burst is young t1's, by elite they will survive it, t2's require nearly two bursts, and by mature/elite may require 2 bursts and a additional shot or two, don't even get me started on crusher, who combines with boiler to make the sentry unable to shoot him, then ram the tables and get to it to knock it down/destroy it, fucking reeeeee.

2nd wind probly means critical state.

[Crab_Spider]

2nd wind probly means critical state.

The point in which they're near critical state (any further damage, regardless puts them in crit), as in, they're about to die.

[Karmac]

still ridonkulous

[Swagile]

Just give us the HGM; I watched three crushers die to it on Nostromo and it was amazing finally seeing marine gear that did something to xenos.

It wouldn't be as effective on LV due to how slow it takes to reposition it and the fact that it faces only one way, but damn is it good shit that makes xenos really re-think their "CHARGE IN BROS" strategy.

[Ms.Degrasse]

Interesting idea. Another that was similar and brought up amongst staff was to completely disable the smaller, weaker, Tier 1 Xenos from being able to affect walls with their acid. Any thoughts on that?

Well... Let-me add some thoughts and insights...

The very first thing I would do IF i were the leading staff of this server would be to establish a "road", with a clear goal for the game to achieve, not only regarding the "win rate", but also the features.

This game is a conversion of a SS13 game into an "Aliens: Colonial Marines" spin-off.

That said, I would suggest three roads for you to think about. - Each of them with their own merits.
And - of course - ways for dealing with engineering, acid and even other features.

SS13 Game Mechanics

Is a good road for the familiarity of typical vanilla SS13 players with the mechanics implemented here.
But is horrible considering the AVP lore. Specially because the xenomorphs from SS13 are intended to turn a round into a "team and assets conversion" typed game, with a "survival horror" theme. (Later I will explain that bit.)

► Show Spoiler

Wall melting? Came from SS13, side-by-side with xenomorph building ability, to provide the asset conversion and to circumvent "turtling, ambushing and trapping" (that is a typical "sandbox survivor" tactic - very obvious for a game like SS13).

It's also from where came the "stun based combat" as a whole, very important for the team conversion, that is countered, in vanilla SS13, with the many respawns or de-conversions provided by robotics (you can turn a xeno into an allied cyborg),
surgeries (where you remove a larva and counter a conversion), xeno research (where you spawn allied golems and creatures), free-respawns (some random and hard to reach sleepers in lavaland or asteroid) and other methods.

Also is notable that a goal of this system - that is also used in nar-sie or ratvar cult rounds - is to keep most players in the game ("not ghosted"). But also to have slow paced, extended rounds, that may go for hours.

Is this the idea here? Keep the acid. (Also stun based combat, conversions, the way human engineering works, ....)

Another tip leading to this road? Put in a role based skill system (where you can't do certain things, in-game, depending in the role you are spawned in). - That would turn the game more friendly and intuitive to SS13 players, and will also remove a lot of burden from your moderators.

AVP Lore

Is very intuitive for AVP fans. Also very well-tuned with the theme.
But... AVP - as a franchise, regarding the mechanics, is usually much more about a "team deathmatch" typed game with an "action horror" theme in it. (So it have very fast rounds, where "ghosted" players just wait a little for the following one to happen.)

► Show Spoiler

AVP is far away from having "sandboxing" mechanics for being explored.
Also here, xenomorphs rely on stealth and lethality, instead of stun and team conversion tactics.

That said? It it's the case?

Remove that acid. (Xenos in the lore, other than when they hurt themselves for the blood, aren't that much into smearing acid on things.... It's well know that even the runner can spit acid - as you can see in it's first kill here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJE4xpIIDfk&t but I guess they can't do it that much for the same reason a human can't spit or barf non-stop.)
...and replace it - for the small xenos - with the ability to "attack from anywhere" on indoor areas!

Fact?
They can simply climb to the ceiling and into areas most humans can't, and slowly move around there as you see here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bqSgvEZNtY
And it's very easy to implement in SS13 by using a similar solution to the one employed in shadowling's shadow jaunt or slaughterdemon's blood walk - where it even warn the players of the incoming threat.

And for the sake of completeness, here are some counters for possibilities if you ever implement this idea:
"How to keep marines from hiding in the jungles?"
- Add a periodic rain event, similar to SS13 radiation or lavaland sand storm, where they get diseases anr/or are hit by random lightning. (You can even add a tent, where they can safely get in - but where they are actually vulnerable to ambushes. HEHEHEHE )

"How to keep marines from evacuating the planet?"
- Add a routine to a computer in the bridge, where after the first deploy (landing of Rasputin or drop pod in the planet), IF the planet gets devoid of humans, bridge crew receives a message from USCM High Command with proper instructions and a reply in a terminal where:
- - IF there are many MARINES in the Sulaco (a fairs number), they get a threat to be court martialled if they don't attack, and a timer. (That if exceeded, gives the xenos a victory, because Sulaco got boarded by high officials and everyone is arrested.)
- - IF there are just a small numbers of marines or no marines at all, either instruct them to await for reinforcements (IF you want a type of human respawn) or simply give the xenomorphs a win. (Again, good thing to keep the rounds fast - and more in-line with a deathmatch).
In both cases? You can give the xenos an opportunity to invade Sulaco, by slowing the departure process - so it will be the xenoqueen's choice to either go for an invasion - and a complete victory - or just be fine with the partial victory.

Also? Would be very in-line to turn xenos more lethal instead of stun-based fighters.
To turn facehuggers and eggs into area denial devices instead of stun-ammo and conversion providers.
You can even scale them with cargo points, so the queen can spawn eggs at the same rate the marines get new landmines or turrets... Also even the facehugger can easily be turned on an NPC. (I actually did it myself on my personal SS13 project by giving it a simple AI with hide-and-attack mechanics - where it seeks tables and unlit areas unless a valid victim is in it's reach - a fast movement rate, and the hard-to-aim-at factor. - On my case, it's a mix of features from slimes, space carps, cortical borers and swarmers - where I even addressed the possibility for a protected or fast acting human to struggle with it. - But in Colonial Marine's case, such complications are unneeded. Marines don't go around in space suits or hardsuits.)

To give xenos a respawn point (i guess "deep tunnels leading to somewhere else" in the caves would do the trick, as someone else suggested long time ago in the forum).

And other in-line adjustments, including the removal of most "sandboxing" mechanics through deletion, role-based skills or other methods.
Even "respawn" can be adjusted and tailored for that "65% of xenomorph win rate" mentioned by Apophis, and/or for having slow or quick rounds... You can, for example, give xeno respawns based on human kills and/or human new players getting in the game... While human respawns could be conditioned to hard to accomplish events, like "humans sending a crate with many xenomorph corpses to W-Y or USCM". (That really depends on your goals.)

Another thing?

Add actual military hardware for the engineers.
Other players gave excellent ideas.
Sandbags, razorwire, tents, sensors, realistic landmines...

(There are already sandbags in some servers, but in real life you can - in fact - create not just trenches, but more complicated things with sandbags.
Take a look: )

But , of course, considering the tactical disadvantages against xenos to be enclosed in a tiny space - and the fact that real life area denial can go both ways if not cleverly planned, that by itself would be in-line to balance the game into the mentioned 65% win rate.

And the big xenos? Make them able to smash through airlocks. (Give them a damage threshold, so the marines will be terrorized at the sound of an airlock getting repeatedly bashed by a hulking xenomorph. Also consider that glass airlocks are much more fragile. - And even a small xenomorph, if it bashes a lot on something, would get damaged, leak acid and eventually melt in. )

Fact? Is that AVP or even alien's movies or games, engineers aren't that much well portrayed other than "people that weld airlocks and mount turrets" - but even here the line is blurred.

So the question is more about "how to adapt SS13 engineering mechanics" into an action game than anything.

While - if you implement a xenomorph ability to get to anywhere - they end up not being that useful.

Realism

Well.... Realism is intuitive for everyone. And never felt as "unfair".
On the other hand? Neither SS13 or even AVP are intended to be "very realistic".

► Show Spoiler

In real life, there are good reasons for people to not go around walling themselves when facing any enemy.
Oxygen deprivation, dehydration and famine.

Implement those? Where a room completely sealed, with walls everywhere and welded airlocks turns into an horrible asphyxiation chamber if it's overcrowded? And people will think twice about using those "sandbox turtling" SS13 tactics...

I saw this in some SS13 code bases, while dehydration is still exclusive to the Fallout spin-offs.

But otherwise? Realism as a whole would be very coding intensive to implement in game mechanics.

Just some examples...

SS13 is a game where getting crushed by an airlock only causes some superficial damage...
- It maims or kill people in real life, crippling them horribly. Would do the same for a xenomorph (but will melt in the process of crushing it).
On the other hand? You can't actually electrify an airlock unless it's not grounded, and even so it would be ineffective unless you build an enormous static electrical charge in it or the person touching it is isn't insulated from the floor.

...So rigged or sensor sabotaged airlocks would be a GOOD thing for engineers to use - as a deathly trap for xenos or anyone trying to go through them.

Xenomorph acid? Is an element of sci-fi.
But considering it works like in the movies (and not in some AVP games, where you can shoot at xenos and they don't melt through a floor or at least the scenario around them)...
... fighting xenomorphs in Sulaco should be inviable.
Would cause breaches everywhere.
And fighting a xenomorph in close range, with firearms, is a sure way to get horribly crippled by acid splashes.
While a large xenomorph will not only survive some gunfire, but still slash you to death while you are melting.

If a xenomorph gets "gibbed" or thoroughly damaged to the point if it's guts spilling out - like happens in this game and in some AVP games too - it's actually a disaster for a space vessel, like portrayed in this sequence...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFN4NtioY8Q

Also? Carrying enough materials for building a very resistant wall - enough to stop a xeno - is out of question.
- Make metal sheets properly big, weighty, and costly to use for building walls, metal tables and everything.
Also make engineering methods realistic (you can't turn a metal sheet into anything in real life without proper tools ant time).

BUT...?
I guess scf-fi combat engineers would have some stuff that would at least be useful. And modern.
While still very realistic things.
( And there are some good realistic reasons for "xeno acid don't causing a breach" as I will address later.)

Here are some stuff I thought of - that is also easy to code in. (There are many things in SS13 code, that are similar to them in one way or another.)

"A thin and lightweight but resistant wire that you can wrap on insulated poles fixed to the ground with stakes (outdoor) or nail guns (indoor), and connect to a small generator - with sensors and capacitors to deliver the full charge only when a short-circuit is detected in the system, creating an electrical and efficient temporary electrical fence."
- Is another thing sci-fi engineers certainly would have. With a good power supply in said generator. And certainly a remote alarm, connected to it, by their pockets. (Of course a xeno can rip it easily, and get only a little of electrical burns - but maybe no stun at all. Idea here is a temporary hindrance, with some damage to the trespasser, instead of a solid barrier - with more very realistic tactical elements.)

"A thick kevlar-aramid composite tarp, bullet and fire proof to some extent, that you can attach around an opening (between walls, with a nail gun) or resistant poles attached to the ground (same poles from the above item) for filling gaps and providing coverage."
- Would at least require the xeno to climb or rip through it, and be some sort of obstacle, while actually not that tactically good because it blocks vision and marine gunfire - like a wall does - however it's very realistic.

"Area movement multi-mode sensors, with receivers configured to them, that also receive wireless tag information from IDs, so it can warn the engineer with the receiver if there is movement by that area - and if there are marines there or not. And even what marines are there. (Receiver can be configured.) - It may even can receive data from colonists IDs too."
- Certainly some thing combat engineers would use, specially on the case the troopers must cover a big area with small forces. Also very "sci-fi" friendly and quite a thing the USCM would have for helping to deal with typical rioters or invaders in a colony.
On coding part? Nothing more than the SS13 movement sensor with an ID check and signaler in it.

"Inflatable, easy to deploy tents, that can be covered with tarps to give them better resistance. (Can use the same tarp mentioned before.)"
- Obviously because USCM sometimes would need to land and build a FOB in remote places.
Specially if a colony is taken over by hostile fighters, well armed pirates or rioters that planned the thing very well, where landing close to it would mean getting a portable missile launched on the drop ship.

Another easy thing to code. (AOE building methods like the ones used in shadowling hatching or the lavaland shelter, plus the ability to add the tarp to the inflatable walls. - There are even already those walls in the game, only they aren't like something USCM would have and are far away from realistic.).

...

Now on the xeno acid, breaches, and corresponding engineering abilities?

Is of note that in SS13 and even AVP lore, space stations or combat ships look poorly designed for standing against meteors or enemy gunfire. (Have in mind that Sulaco literally had explosives and fuel by the cargo, with no decent firefighting systems...
http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/USS_Sulaco )

But in SS13 specifically, breaching is exacerbated on purpose - and this is in tune with the engineer's wall and floor building abilities, and the idea of "a horrible metal death trap masqueraded as a space station".

"Nerf", remove or change the breaching ,mechanics for your game?
And you can safely remove any "superhuman wall building ability" the engineers might have without causing negative impacts.

Destroyed floor could lead to another part of the ship, or to a "deep hole in the structure" where a player may fall and get damaged in but can climb back instead of directly to the space.
External hull walls could be two squares thick - and stand almost any abuse - with even a system to spill a sealant when damaged.
Also?
There are no reasons for a combat ship to have that many glass windows - exactly the same logic behind war submarines having no windows too when compared to sea exploring submarines (windows break easily and can't be easily fixed).
There is also no way a combat space ship would place command's bridge in the front.
A war submarine diagram is a good reference for real-life design that would be implemented.

Notice that the control room is in the middle.

As I said? Reality is hard to implement as a whole. - But certainly not impossible.

Yeah... You can have a mix of those also for a focus, depending on your intentions.
And the "flavor" you want your game to have.

It is even possible to have "instances" in the same game, where they "feel like different games".

Engineering in the planet might work differently than in Sulaco. Simply because they are in different places, with structures made of specific materials.
(You can weld a wall to a metallic floor, but not to soil or wooden tiles... )
Also xenomorphs can have different ways to move around - or build - in those places, for the same reasons.

But that would require your insights first.

________________________


...Also...

...As I already said to some staff members in other circumstances, I owe this server a lot for the way it contributed to my learning of SS13 as a whole (on CM's case, not "BYOND coding", but on actual expertise and know-how about the SS13 community, SS13 dynamics, game-play ideas, a lot of "dos and don't s",... for my own projects related to BYOND and multimedia / game authoring in general).

So I am willing to contribute back to it. - And I can do that in many ways other than just giving suggestions.
Message-me if you feel inclined.

[Nicboone]

Our main goal here is two fold;

removing racks and false walls. They look really horrible and the logic is shifty at best. Ill be reading through this thread to get some ideas of what you guys think would be good additions- but please rest assured there will be some planned additions soon [maybe about a week] that will be better/cheaper/more effectibe options to the racks and false walls.

feel free to quote me with specific ideas in this thread if youd like.

[TheMaskedMan2]

Our main goal here is two fold;

removing racks and false walls. They look really horrible and the logic is shifty at best. Ill be reading through this thread to get some ideas of what you guys think would be good additions- but please rest assured there will be some planned additions soon [maybe about a week] that will be better/cheaper/more effectibe options to the racks and false walls.

feel free to quote me with specific ideas in this thread if youd like.

I could probably come up with more over time but what immediatly comes to mind.

Barbed wire/razor wire - Essentially replaces racks, but you can move through them at a cost of damage and slowing you?

Plasteel doors? Instead of false walls, essentially doors you can shoot over, or functionally a barricade that opens and closes, likely at a cost of less HP or more plasteel.

[Nicboone]

I could probably come up with more over time but what immediatly comes to mind.

Barbed wire/razor wire - Essentially replaces racks, but you can move through them at a cost of damage and slowing you?

Plasteel doors? Instead of false walls, essentially doors you can shoot over, or functionally a barricade that opens and closes, likely at a cost of less HP or more plasteel.

this is basically what we will be going with. I dont want to go into super duper specifics until we finish it- but we are basically doing something along these lines. Racks will become ineffective. tables will not be able to be hand constructed, instead only be able to be built at an autolathe- but can still be broken down and moved/used as salvaged cover.

racks will become super ineffective by being replaced with defensive wire that can only be placed on: tables, metal/plasteel cades, and sandbags. It will cost one metal to make the wire, and attaching it to a cade is permanent until the cade is destroyed. Xenos hitting this will get some minor damage, and there is some discussion about marines climbing over it causing damage. It will also stop aliens from jumping over it. There is some discussion about specifics of how it can be placed.

Wires will not be able to be placed anywehre that isnt the cades. that means no free floating wire.

false walls will be replaced by a new kind of collapsable cover- that can be opened and shut. when open, it can be fired over and acts like a wall. when shut, it can be walked over. It can be dragged to new positions and set up.

[Rahlzel]

Here's a direct quote from our Trello card regarding barricades:

Code: Select all

**Tier 1 - Sandbags** - weakest tier but uses the least materials, and still stronger than any other metal thing like racks.
**Tier 2 - Metal Barricades** - Strongest but uses same metal and plasteel requirements, can be retracted up/down to allow movement (GET RID OF FALSE WALLS!!!)
**Barbed wire** - Can only be placed on the above barricades (including tables below) to reinforce them and cause damage to Xenos hitting them. This causes cades and barbed wire to join together as one object so that breaking the cade also breaks the barbed wire. This will prevent potential abuse of buidling a cade > adding wire > deconstructing cade > leaving the wire > repeat, and resulting in a field of barbed wire.

**Tables** - Will still be flippable and used as basic barricades, along with placing barbed wire on them, but they can only be crafted at an autolathe.

Also, robots (formerly cyborgs) and synths should be able to retract these just as easily as humans.

Racks will also possibly increase in materials or become passable by Xenos in order to prevent awful-looking rack-fields.

What does everyone think?

[TheMaskedMan2]

Sounds completely good to me but my biggest worry is sandbags currently are unable to be replenished, even from RO. Also if autolathes continue to be difficult to acquire, this would seemingly make tables vanish entirely from defenses, and the tons of metal that engineers get kinda useless, as a majority of that was used on R-Tables.

Overall I like the sound of it though, and besides a few worries about things such as that and a bit of balance concerns it sounds like an improvement overall.

[Rahlzel]

Sandbags will be made readily available - orderable and perhaps craftable. Good point.

[Karmac]

Nerf or remove racks? My beautiful children? How could you do this to me devs!

[Renomaki]

Honestly, I don't want tables to go away, otherwise what is the point of having all that metal if the only cover you can make are plasteel barricades and sandbags?

We need a middleman of cover, something with their own benefits to help marines that costs only metal, isn't as strong as plasteel but can take a bit more punishment than sandbags.

Tables as of now are vital to base construction, the meat and potatos of any FoB. After all, Plasteel is expensive, and Sandbags can only do so much to protect you until a crusher just rams right through or a boiler spits a juicy one over them and forces everyone out.

[Telegnats]

Removing the ability for engineers to quickly make and deploy tables would force them to rely exclusively on sandbags - plasteel is too expensive and too little in quantity to be relied upon. Sandbags are themselves far too few in number and RO will likely send hardly any shipments of sandbags like they do metal. The FOBs will get smaller and less intricate.

Also, sandbag filling is a fucking nightmare. I'm clicking 100+ times (Realistically 150+) to make them. It's irritating in the worst ways possible.

[Swagile]

Nerfing Engineers even more, damn.

Sooner or later Marines will just get pub stomped by flying Crushers that circumvent all barricades that Engineers can build.

This, my friends, is the reason we barely have any decent Engineers anymore.

Realism is killing the Engineer role.

We got the machine gun turret nest, but is it worth the removal of false walls, racks, and tables in return for even heavier reliance on Requisitions for the meager amounts of supplies Engineers can play with?

I think thats the question that should be asked. Will this update be fun, or is it realism for the sake of it?