Marine Law Clarification Thread

[coroneljones]

So, Marine Law is somewhat vague in some sections or doesnt mention things within, so to help fix this, decided to make this threat.

Where players can ask questions about Marine Law here, and pray that the heads(Mostly Apop or Feweh) clear it up

So heres my set so far:

• -Can hacking, such as removing the access requirements or extra equipment being added via tampering the vendor, be authorized, under damage to government property, or is that section only applied to rooms or structures on the Almayer
• -Would a Standard wearing SL armor, be considered to be using their proper uniform, or would Improper Uniform apply
• -Does only the ship itself, and the machinery fall under Damage to Government property, or would the marines´ equipment, such as weaponry and armor, also fall under Damage to government property
• -Threatening to use weaponry to assault someone, still under assault, for threatening, or assault with a deadly weapon.
• -Drinking on Duty and Drunk on Duty, one is applied for five minutes minimum, the other is till sober, Is one applied if they drink but dont get drunk, or is it applied AFTER they are sober?
• -Threatening someone with a lethal weapon, such as aiming it but not firing or wielding it while threatening to use it, Assault or Assault with a Deadly Weapon?
• -Drug Use, Addon charge for Drug Distribution, if medics use the chems, or to all chems, which means all chems must be authorized prior to used?
• -Gathering people to Mutiny, such as screaming to gather somewhere to mutiny or going around asking them to join the mutiny, would be that mutiny charges, or INCITING a mutiny? (AKA Disorderly Conduct)

[apophis775]

1. Hacking vendors is always illegal on the ship. It's under damage to ships property. The ship is designed to give you what you need for a round based on what we've decided the ship needs. Hacking is more intended for planetside vendors (not ship vendors). Also, moving a vendor off the ship "just to legally hack it" also has it apply.
2. Improper Uniform, unless they are an acting Squad Leader. But outside of the round-start or specific RP, it shouldn't be a problem once shit gets real.
3. The ship, it's equipment, and the marine's equipment falls under damage to government property. The specific marines do not and are covered under separate laws.
4. Threatening someone with a weapon can be considered assault as would be punching and hitting with non-weapons. Assault with a deadly weapon would be threatening or attacking someone with a weapon.
5. If they drink, but are not drunk then it's 5 minutes, if they are actually drunk,it's until sober and probably a demotion.
6. See #4.
7. Can you clarify?
8. Depends on the Commander/CMP/MP and that they think is appropriate.

[coroneljones]

7: Drug use: Consuming either space drugs or medical compounds not authorized for distribution.

The question is: Is this only applied to what the medics are using, or to doctors and the chems that they use, effectively, requiring the CMO and Acting CO to authorize and decide what chems Medbay Docs are allowed to use to treat wounds

Furthermore, not a law itself but a procedure:
During boarding/Code Red: Are ALL PRISONERS supposed to be released, held in the brig until their sentence is over but protected at all times, or is it depending on the CMP/CO
Appeals: Is this a "good behaviour" parole routine, or is it to confirm the evidence and charges to make sure they are valid, giving the prisoner a chance to give his side of the story

[Challenger]

RE: 7, when Ordukai (?) was on and I tried to press the issue regarding Drug Use, he clarified that any drugs that are in the doctors' roundstart vendors don't need to be authorized for use by doctors as clearly high command deemed them fit to be there. Any other drugs need authorization if the doctors want to use them.

[apophis775]

Where are you getting the "ALL PRISONERS" are supposed to be released thing? People are held until their sentence is over. If the CMP or the MPs believe the person can be trusted, he can be released in an emergency to defend the ship if the CMP/MP want. But primarily, the MPs/CMP need to PROTECT the prisoners from harm.




Don't get hung up on drug use. If you see someone dumping shitloads of pills into the Dropship, or telling people to "come get healy pills" or retarded things like that, that is when you step in. The point of the law is to prevent "Powergaming Chems" from being distributed WITHOUT authorization, and to allow medbay to reserve some of their drugs so that the medics can't just totally heal everyone planetside to full. IT's pretty fucking simple of what you need to prevent:
1. Non-medics from getting any advanced healing stuff (as in, anything that isn't a bandage, advance brute, advanced burn, ointment, or Tricord autoinjector). EVER. Penalty is PER ITEM.
2. Medics from getting superscience healing stuff (2-drug combo pills, non-standard chems like synaptazine) without a distribution paper signed by the CMO and COmmander
3. Space Drugs. 100%. Always.

The whole point of the laws, is to curb a lot of the "super-science healing mega-combos" that were fucking with balance and to preserve medical jobs for medbay to actually do.

[Pictish20]

4. Threatening someone with a weapon can be considered assault as would be punching and hitting with non-weapons. Assault with a deadly weapon would be threatening or attacking someone with a weapon.

So, Apop, you say that threatening someone with a weapon is both assault and assault with a deadly weapon. I assume that this is not what you mean, so which is it?

[Tidomann]

7: Drug use: Consuming either space drugs or medical compounds not authorized for distribution.

The question is: Is this only applied to what the medics are using, or to doctors and the chems that they use, effectively, requiring the CMO and Acting CO to authorize and decide what chems Medbay Docs are allowed to use to treat wounds

Yes, so if you make 30tricord 25 bicardine combo pill for personal use as a doctor, you should get CMO approval. If it starts in your vendor, you don't.

Furthermore, not a law itself but a procedure:
During boarding/Code Red: Are ALL PRISONERS supposed to be released, held in the brig until their sentence is over but protected at all times, or is it depending on the CMP/CO

Depends on CMO and CO.

Appeals: Is this a "good behaviour" parole routine, or is it to confirm the evidence and charges to make sure they are valid, giving the prisoner a chance to give his side of the story

Both. CMP always has the final say on what is in the best interest of the ship- obviously depends on the situation and the evidence.

[Tidomann]

So, Apop, you say that threatening someone with a weapon is both assault and assault with a deadly weapon. I assume that this is not what you mean, so which is it?

He's talking about threatening someone with something like a stunprod or baseball bat, vs machete or gun

[apophis775]

So, Apop, you say that threatening someone with a weapon is both assault and assault with a deadly weapon. I assume that this is not what you mean, so which is it?

"I'm gonna fucking beat the fucking shit out of you" - Assault

"I'm gonna shoot you with my rifle" - Assault with a deadly weapon

But since we don't have "battery" you can just throw the actual beating or hitting with a deadly weapon into the assault/assault with a deadly weapon. So:

Beating someone with a crowbar - Assault

Hacking someone with a machete - Assault with a deadly weapon

[Bronimin]

What authorization does the Researcher need to put their experimental medicine into practice? Their round-start flavour text indicates that they ONLY need permission from the CMO.

[Pictish20]

"I'm gonna fucking beat the fucking shit out of you" - Assault

"I'm gonna shoot you with my rifle" - Assault with a deadly weapon

But since we don't have "battery" you can just throw the actual beating or hitting with a deadly weapon into the assault/assault with a deadly weapon. So:

Beating someone with a crowbar - Assault

Hacking someone with a machete - Assault with a deadly weapon

Thanks for the further clarification.

[Thucydides]

Yes, so if you make 30tricord 25 bicardine combo pill for personal use as a doctor, you should get CMO approval. If it starts in your vendor, you don't.

The example you gave here seems to be contrary to "if you find it in your vendor - it's OK," as both Bicard and Tricord are easily accessible in all vendors (whether in pill, bottle, or auto form). I understand you can draw an easy distinction between combining the drugs in chemistry to form an easy-to-use pill and having to use them separately.

But extrapolating from that, are you saying all drug mixes are illegal, e.g. quick clot and inaprov in a hypospray? What about using the bottles of inaprov and dylo to make a Tricord bottle for personal use? Is there a line drawn somewhere or is it a blanket ban unless it's in the provided by the vendor and not mixed with anything else?

[coroneljones]

A new one:
-The Liason, by rules, they are allowed to always carry their pistol, by marine law, he likely shouldnt on code green, whats the verdict, Rules dictate a special protocol for him, or does marine law prohibit him from carrying it on code green without MP interference and unauthorized weapon charges?

[Skimmy2]

A new one:
-The Liason, by rules, they are allowed to always carry their pistol, by marine law, he likely shouldnt on code green, whats the verdict, Rules dictate a special protocol for him, or does marine law prohibit him from carrying it on code green without MP interference and unauthorized weapon charges?

It is my understanding that they are not allowed to flash/show their weapon. I personally have never seen a CL be in trouble with having a pistol in their satchel.

[Challenger]

Disrespect to a superior:
- What does the "disobeying orders" part mean here? Is this for very minor cases of insubordination, like refusing to say/emote something when asked to by superiors?
- I saw another MP apply this law on the basis that if someone insults a department, you have to tally up every person in that department and apply a charge for every person insulted, so if someone says "fuck MPs" you count the number of MPs at 6 and apply six charges of disrespect.
- On the other hand, does insulting a department even count as disrespect to a superior?

Trespassing:
- Who "authorizes" accessing areas? Any member of command? The issue here as far as I can see is that there's no way to prevent ROs/CTs from entering marine prep rooms without also preventing everyone else from accessing places they're invited into.

Contraband:
- How does this law work with squad prep items? Should engineers, medics, etc legally be allowed to hand out their spare pouches, webbings, items etc?

Theft:
- This law is defined as "To retain possession of items belonging to another marine."
- Does this mean that non-marines (civilians) aren't protected by this exact law, and instead are protected by the hooliganism/disorderly/contraband laws?
- And are items "belonging" to someone only personal items such as cigars, berets, etc? Otherwise it seems this law would make it illegal to order your engineer to give you C4 as an SL and such.

Minor weapons violation:
- What's the verdict on people getting around this law by taking down extra pistols/SMGs by carrying them in their holsters in their hands? They're technically "holstered".

Murder or unauthorized execution:
- "Executions are only authorized with permission from and in the presence of the acting Commander." Does the ACO need to be present even if the CMP requested the execution?

[Symbiosis]

The example you gave here seems to be contrary to "if you find it in your vendor - it's OK," as both Bicard and Tricord are easily accessible in all vendors (whether in pill, bottle, or auto form). I understand you can draw an easy distinction between combining the drugs in chemistry to form an easy-to-use pill and having to use them separately.

But extrapolating from that, are you saying all drug mixes are illegal, e.g. quick clot and inaprov in a hypospray? What about using the bottles of inaprov and dylo to make a Tricord bottle for personal use? Is there a line drawn somewhere or is it a blanket ban unless it's in the provided by the vendor and not mixed with anything else?

This has been clarified by Feweh. Doctors are able to create and use medications for personal use/treating wounded. OBVIOUSLY this doesn't mean Space Drugs can be created. High Command gave them a Chem dispenser for a reason.

As far as medics go, they were given syringes and various means for mixing chemicals, such as a quick clot/Bicaridine mix in a bottle. If High Command wanted them to only use pills, there'd be no syringes or bottles available to them.

Distribution, however, is different than in department use.

Marine Law is meant to protect the integrity of the round/Almayer, not to be twisted to antag individuals.

[lcass123]

Disrespect to a superior:
- What does the "disobeying orders" part mean here? Is this for very minor cases of insubordination, like refusing to say/emote something when asked to by superiors?
- I saw another MP apply this law on the basis that if someone insults a department, you have to tally up every person in that department and apply a charge for every person insulted, so if someone says "fuck MPs" you count the number of MPs at 6 and apply six charges of disrespect.
- On the other hand, does insulting a department even count as disrespect to a superior?

Trespassing:
- Who "authorizes" accessing areas? Any member of command? The issue here as far as I can see is that there's no way to prevent ROs/CTs from entering marine prep rooms without also preventing everyone else from accessing places they're invited into.

Contraband:
- How does this law work with squad prep items? Should engineers, medics, etc legally be allowed to hand out their spare pouches, webbings, items etc?

Theft:
- This law is defined as "To retain possession of items belonging to another marine."
- Does this mean that non-marines (civilians) aren't protected by this exact law, and instead are protected by the hooliganism/disorderly/contraband laws?
- And are items "belonging" to someone only personal items such as cigars, berets, etc? Otherwise it seems this law would make it illegal to order your engineer to give you C4 as an SL and such.

Minor weapons violation:
- What's the verdict on people getting around this law by taking down extra pistols/SMGs by carrying them in their holsters in their hands? They're technically "holstered".

Murder or unauthorized execution:
- "Executions are only authorized with permission from and in the presence of the acting Commander." Does the ACO need to be present even if the CMP requested the execution?

By the logic of that first MP you could perma people for saying fuck the Police on high pop rounds which is utterly stupid, a single charge at max time would be appropriate.

[Challenger]

As far as medics go, they were given syringes and various means for mixing chemicals, such as a quick clot/Bicaridine mix in a bottle. If High Command wanted them to only use pills, there'd be no syringes or bottles available to them.

Distribution, however, is different than in department use.

Marine Law is meant to protect the integrity of the round/Almayer, not to be twisted to antag individuals.

Medics only have in-prep access to syringes and bottles from the syringe case in their first aid kits, don't they? Seems the ability for them to mix chemicals as a result is an oversight of High Command giving them the standard injection kit present in most first aid kit types.

On a side note, I think I solved the RO/CT prep dilemma - they're not trespassing if they allow themselves in or are allowed in by the marines, but it is contraband for them to take any supplies out of the marine prep vendors. The same way it'd be contraband for a marine to take random command gear if they were invited into the CIC. And you can still allow the RO to distribute survivor gear since it's WY colony gear, and it's implicit in the military operation that marines are allowed to use the colony's resources. Or something like that.

That MP's logic was weird to me too, but he actually went through with brigging the dude. I think a staff member suggested doing it, too. /shrug/

[Voldirs]

Medics only have in-prep access to syringes and bottles from the syringe case in their first aid kits, don't they? Seems the ability for them to mix chemicals as a result is an oversight of High Command giving them the standard injection kit present in most first aid kit types.

Actually, medics have access to most medical storages, excluding Weyland medical dispenser and chemical dispenser. Im not sure if its intended or not.

Also, there is always lots of unclarified situations, one playing as MP or CMP must apply common sense if its not clear.

[Tidomann]

Commons sense is generally the best way to approach things.

Technically- medics shouldn't be doing any advanced chemistry. Mixing things like full and inaprovaline to produce tricord seems acceptable, and is even possible from the medic prep area storage area.

Peri isn't available to any vendors medics have access to, but it is available to doctors. While it needs approval for distribution, doctors are able to use it without special authorization.

So if it isn't available via vendors you have access to, your prep area (ie CMO office starts with a flash) or wasn't given to you by RO, chances are it could viably be considered contraband.

Once again, use common sense.

Squad leader gives you the extra B12 armour? Don't be surprised if an MP nails you for contraband or improper uniform.

[lcass123]

Commons sense is generally the best way to approach things.

Technically- medics shouldn't be doing any advanced chemistry. Mixing things like full and inaprovaline to produce tricord seems acceptable, and is even possible from the medic prep area storage area.

Peri isn't available to any vendors medics have access to, but it is available to doctors. While it needs approval for distribution, doctors are able to use it without special authorization.

So if it isn't available via vendors you have access to, your prep area (ie CMO office starts with a flash) or wasn't given to you by RO, chances are it could viably be considered contraband.

Once again, use common sense.

Squad leader gives you the extra B12 armour? Don't be surprised if an MP nails you for contraband or improper uniform.

That last situation isn't contraband or improper uniform though, there is no way for a marine to get that gear without an SL giving it to them so it was authorised.

[coroneljones]

That last situation isn't contraband or improper uniform though, there is no way for a marine to get that gear without an SL giving it to them so it was authorised.

Even if it was given, its still Improper Uniform, its for the squad leader, unless you are the designated, by role or rank, leader of your current squad, its not your proper gear, in the same way a marine wearing the sniper spec's recon armor isnt wearing his proper uniform, or a engineer with an officer cap or MP beret

The one exclusion on this, is donor gear

[Sir Lordington]

Something I've run into twice. On the topic of firing squads, Marine Law states that firing squad executions are to be carried out by MPs. To me, this implies pretty strongly that only MPs may participate, but does not outright state it. However, there was a player report recently which resolved that the CO would have been allowed, had the execution taken place. This leads me to ask: Under what cicumstances may non-MPs be allowed to participate in firing squads?

[Tidomann]

Something I've run into twice. On the topic of firing squads, Marine Law states that firing squad executions are to be carried out by MPs. To me, this implies pretty strongly that only MPs may participate, but does not outright state it. However, there was a player report recently which resolved that the CO would have been allowed, had the execution taken place. This leads me to ask: Under what cicumstances may non-MPs be allowed to participate in firing squads?

You are right that the MPs should be the one who carry out the execution (or CMO). The Commander or chief mp must be present (but not necessarily participating.)

If the MPs want to follow this procedure to the letter they should inform the Commander or Chief MP (whoever authorized the execution) not to participate, only observe. If they allow them to participate they can't 180 and arrest them.

[Sir Lordington]

Would you not argue that the CMP is allowed to participate regardless of what the other MPs, seeing how he is actually an MP himself and above them in the command chain

And what I meant with the other question is, if allowed by the MPs, can say, a Staff Officer be part of the firing squad? Can a Private? Or is it just the Commander? And does this need permission from the CMP explicitly?