Marine Law Loophole (Corporate Liaison) (Bug-ish?)

[PandaCG]

Bug Description:
Okay, to start, this falls under marine law and MP jurisdiction totally. Today, at around 8pm, we had a round with a CL on that was able to find a pretty big loophole in the system that not only encourages bullying/harrasment, but also metagrudges and generally shit CL RP in general that would otherwise land marines and others a fat boot for breaking rule one.

After a ton of arguing about whether or not the CL falls under "Disrespect to a Superior" as far as MP jurisdiction goes, admins said "No. The CL only answers to the CO". Now, there's a ton of things already wrong with that.

Lets give an example with doctors. If a doctor spread disrespect about a superior, they get arrested. I've seen it done before. Doctors are civilians, CL is a civilian too. If I'm correct about this, why doesn't CL fall under this law? Why is he not affected by it? During this instance, the XO just sort of allowed it to happen too. CL should never fall outside of MP jurisdiction, even if it says "Military Police" on their ID, they still work to uphold the law and justice itself.

"Okay, but it's the CL's JOB to rp as such. There's nothing wrong with it." As true as this is, there's a certain limit to how much you can RP a "corrupt/dick CL who walks on the fine line between innocent and guilty", at some point you are not only breaking the law, but you are breaking the rules too. And when a CL is to only answer to someone such as the XO or CO, MP should already be intervening.

The problem behind this loophole, as I've said, is that it encourages rule breaking and general-being-an-asshole, and CL's should NOT be able to simply say "umm, sorry cuck mp! but i answer to co/xo only!111!", even for the littlest problems such as disrespect to a superior.

Now this doesn't warrant a complete overhaul of W-Y or MP, it just needs to be clarified that the CL falls within the jurisdiction of the MP (or, atleast CMP). sure, loopholes are fun little rp things that good CL's can exploit and spice things up, but for something that can turn into such a huge problem as disrespect can, it shouldn't be allowed, god forbid the XO or CO has to set aside their time of commanding to listen to it and excuse it or not.

----------------

Steps to reproduce:
1. Be CL
2. Read Marine Law
3. Call MP cucks and dipshits because epic loophole

[Robotonic]

This isn't a bug. This has nothing to do with development issues. Make a general discussion topic about it instead.

[PandaCG]

This isn't a bug. This has nothing to do with development issues. Make a general discussion topic about it instead.

alright, can you move this to general discussion then?

[ZDashe]

"umm, sorry cuck mp! but i answer to co/xo only!111!"

Ahelp the CL for LRP in such cases, and they're likely to get job banned.

If the CL is RPing normally and has decided to go around insulting/stirring up trouble to draw attention to himself (a very rare handful of smart CLs have created distractions using himself as a decoy successfully like this before), harassing and insulting multiple people or departments such that it interferes with their normal operation, there's nothing stopping MPs from arresting them for Disorderly Conduct.

Code: Select all

Directly and intentionally disrupting primary operations of the ship. Fighting in the RO line, disrupting the briefing, or inciting rioting/mutiny. 

[coroneljones]

Docs fall under it, in cases with the Acting CO and CMO i belive, since they are hired help onboard
The CL does not, he does not work for anyone onboard, he is a guest so to speak. His only superior is the Company


Belive thats how it goes

[lcass123]

I was the CL this round and what you are trying to argue against here is basically the entire purpose of the CL role, they are not part of the standard crew and answer only to the company not to the USCM at all. Even on the wiki they are listed as other roles, as such they do not have a superior on the ship unless you consider the fax machine a living entity.

Onto the "cuck !11!!!1" stuff, firstly I never called you a cuck that would just be stupid especially if it was just to goad you on like in your context with no buildup. I was a polite and bureaucratic CL up until I was detained for half an hour due to some dodgy contracts, you set my time incorrectly and then tried to confiscate my gun illegally instead of putting it in a locker so I called you a dipshit so you raised my time. The WO then told you that you are not a superior to me but you continued to ignore him and eventually my total time ended up being over an hour for insulting you while the WO and I argued with you, you ignored his judgement for 25 minutes and when ordered to move aside you refused a direct order from the CMP and were jailed. You then escaped and tried to kill yourself.

This isn't a loophole this is the intent of the role, as jones said CL's as their superior is to the company only they are exempt from charges of insubordination and disrespect to a superior. They are also permitted their pistol at any alert level and may leave the ship at any time, this one really should be in the marine law book though as it only appears on the CL wiki page in a small set of bullet points.

[coroneljones]

I was the CL this round and what you are trying to argue against here is basically the entire purpose of the CL role, they are not part of the standard crew and answer only to the company not to the USCM at all. Even on the wiki they are listed as other roles, as such they do not have a superior on the ship unless you consider the fax machine a living entity.

Onto the "cuck !11!!!1" stuff, firstly I never called you a cuck that would just be stupid especially if it was just to goad you on like in your context with no buildup. I was a polite and bureaucratic CL up until I was detained for half an hour due to some dodgy contracts, you set my time incorrectly and then tried to confiscate my gun illegally instead of putting it in a locker so I called you a dipshit so you raised my time. The WO then told you that you are not a superior to me but you continued to ignore him and eventually my total time ended up being over an hour for insulting you while the WO and I argued with you, you ignored his judgement for 25 minutes and when ordered to move aside you refused a direct order from the CMP and were jailed. You then escaped and tried to kill yourself.

This isn't a loophole this is the intent of the role, as jones said CL's as their superior is to the company only they are exempt from charges of insubordination and disrespect to a superior. They are also permitted their pistol at any alert level and may leave the ship at any time, this one really should be in the marine law book though as it only appears on the CL wiki page in a small set of bullet points.

Dont belive the pistol part is correct, they probably still have to follow ship-side alert levels
Thought I may be wrong, so going to check it out.

[lcass123]

Dont belive the pistol part is correct, they probably still have to follow ship-side alert levels
Thought I may be wrong, so going to check it out.

"From the beginning, you are authorized to carry a pistol. Weyland may issue you other weapons, depending on the situation."

From the CL wiki page, as I said it really needs to be in the marine law books as not many people know about it.

[Symbiosis]

Issuing a pistol does not mean you are AUTHORIZED you wield it on a Military Vessel. That's the kicker.

[lcass123]

Issuing a pistol does not mean you are AUTHORIZED you wield it on a Military Vessel. That's the kicker.

Authorised being the key word not issued.

Also

"Medical staff: Since they are civilians, they don't receive orders from you, although they should listen. They are led by a Chief Medical Officer and composed of Doctors. It's recommended you let them be autonomous for roleplay and gameplay reasons, since that micromanagement can make their job worse than it is. Researcher is also medical, make sure to provide them resources and ask them for shining equipment for your goons."
from the CO wiki page.

[Blade2000Br]

Authorised being the key word not issued.

You know, I think you are not interpreting it in a correctly... It say's:
"From the beginning, you are authorized to carry a pistol. Weyland may issue you other weapons, depending on the situation."

Exactly. You are authorized to walk with a pistol in your body, like all marines does and even the CO does with his Mateba. WHOEVER, it does not say "You are authorized to carry AND wield the pistol in your hand regardless of the alert code on the ship."

So you can walk with the pistol, doesn't mean you can just have it in your hand and be an wannabe marine and shoot for funzies without any consequence. Remember:

"Liasons are not above Marine Law. If you commit a crime, don't expect special protection from the Company."

[lcass123]

You know, I think you are not interpreting it in a correctly... It say's:
"From the beginning, you are authorized to carry a pistol. Weyland may issue you other weapons, depending on the situation."

Exactly. You are authorized to walk with a pistol in your body, like all marines does and even the CO does with his Mateba. WHOEVER, it does not say "You are authorized to carry AND wield the pistol in your hand regardless of the alert code on the ship."

So you can walk with the pistol, doesn't mean you can just have it in your hand and be an wannabe marine and shoot for funzies without any consequence. Remember:

"Liasons are not above Marine Law. If you commit a crime, don't expect special protection from the Company."

Nope I mean what you are saying, if I'm running around with a pistol then it's a weapon violation but if i've got it on my person and not wielding it then it's perfectly fine. The MP in question was confiscating the gun even though I had never wielded it.

[Challenger]

Have any of you actually read the rules in the last month?

"You can have a pistol at all times. However, this does NOT supersede Marine Law. So don't have it in the open if you value not being arrested."

You shouldn't have a pistol on your waist or in a holster. You shouldn't have it in your bag. You possibly shouldn't even have it in your office at all, and keep it hidden the entire game and hide it again if the code goes up and back down.

[lcass123]

Have any of you actually read the rules in the last month?

"You can have a pistol at all times. However, this does NOT supersede Marine Law. So don't have it in the open if you value not being arrested."

You shouldn't have a pistol on your waist or in a holster. You shouldn't have it in your bag. You possibly shouldn't even have it in your office at all, and keep it hidden the entire game and hide it again if the code goes up and back down.

in the open could mean different things, could mean have it in your hand or visible from an examine. Having it in your bag is not having it in the open. Not have it in your office at all? You do realise where the gun is right?

[Challenger]

Marine law is really clear about this:

Code Green - Authorized Weapons may be carried by deploying marines, security (non-lethals only), the Acting Commander, XO, Staff Officers, and Requisitions Officer. If you have a weapon, you must keep it holstered at all times while on the ship. This applies to Deploying Marines as well.

Unauthorized Weapon - Possession of a weapon you are not authorized during a non-emergency situation, detailed as code levels in the Weapon Usage for Crew section above. As code levels decrease in threat, weapons should be stored appropriately and not kept on-person or in personal areas.

So yeah, hide it from the MPs no matter what. You're never authorized to have a pistol. You can still hide it in your office though since there's no cameras and no one else has access to it, and if MPs arrest you for having it roundstart they're metagaming.

Of course you CAN keep it in your bag but then if you get arrested for something else and it merits searching your bag, you're going to get a hefty amount of time added on because you were trying to hide that illegal weapon.

[lcass123]

Marine law is really clear about this:

Code Green - Authorized Weapons may be carried by deploying marines, security (non-lethals only), the Acting Commander, XO, Staff Officers, and Requisitions Officer. If you have a weapon, you must keep it holstered at all times while on the ship. This applies to Deploying Marines as well.

Unauthorized Weapon - Possession of a weapon you are not authorized during a non-emergency situation, detailed as code levels in the Weapon Usage for Crew section above. As code levels decrease in threat, weapons should be stored appropriately and not kept on-person or in personal areas.

So yeah, hide it from the MPs no matter what. You're never authorized to have a pistol. You can still hide it in your office though since there's no cameras and no one else has access to it, and if MPs arrest you for having it roundstart they're metagaming.

Of course you CAN keep it in your bag but then if you get arrested for something else and it merits searching your bag, you're going to get a hefty amount of time added on because you were trying to hide that illegal weapon.

Then we have a conflict between the CL wiki page and marine law, if I am authorized to carry the pistol at all times then I cannot be arrested for an unauthorized weapon.

[Symbiosis]

Then we have a conflict between the CL wiki page and marine law, if I am authorized to carry the pistol at all times then I cannot be arrested for an unauthorized weapon.

Authorized it means they give you one. IF this was a W-Y vessel you could wield it.

This is a USCM vessel and the CL is NOT on the authorized list.

[PandaCG]

Docs fall under it, in cases with the Acting CO and CMO i belive, since they are hired help onboard
The CL does not, he does not work for anyone onboard, he is a guest so to speak. His only superior is the Company


Belive thats how it goes

now that you put it like that, it makes more sense

Ahelp the CL for LRP in such cases, and they're likely to get job banned.

If the CL is RPing normally and has decided to go around insulting/stirring up trouble to draw attention to himself (a very rare handful of smart CLs have created distractions using himself as a decoy successfully like this before), harassing and insulting multiple people or departments such that it interferes with their normal operation, there's nothing stopping MPs from arresting them for Disorderly Conduct.

Code: Select all

Directly and intentionally disrupting primary operations of the ship. Fighting in the RO line, disrupting the briefing, or inciting rioting/mutiny. 

thanks, will do.

zdashe summed it up quite nicely