Updates discussion thread

Generic, on-topic discussion about Colonial Marines.
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LocalizedDownpour
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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by LocalizedDownpour » 31 Jan 2018, 19:22

Surrealistik wrote:
31 Jan 2018, 18:51
So are you saying it was selection by dart board?

I will note that it does seem to be part of an effort to make the M56D worth a comparative shit, largely by nerfing the crap out of the Sentry, rather than improving the M56D.
I'm more saything they were out to nerf marines. Sentries have less counter play then the M56D. The m56D can shred marines, Sentry can't. They just shifted the Sentries role to area denial. I'll be very surprised to see a alien get close to a sentry now as if they get hit by 8 rounds it's going to be rip. Also. This doesn't take away the ability to use the sentry to cover medivac points or triage/supply zones. You just have to be smart about setup, marines have to be abit smarter and that's not a bad thing.

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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by Surrealistik » 31 Jan 2018, 19:32

LocalizedDownpour wrote:
31 Jan 2018, 19:22
I'm more saything they were out to nerf marines. Sentries have less counter play then the M56D. The m56D can shred marines, Sentry can't. They just shifted the Sentries role to area denial. I'll be very surprised to see a alien get close to a sentry now as if they get hit by 8 rounds it's going to be rip. Also. This doesn't take away the ability to use the sentry to cover medivac points or triage/supply zones. You just have to be smart about setup, marines have to be abit smarter and that's not a bad thing.
You can use the sentry to cover those areas but it is much less effective and will require either additional sentries (each facing the opposite direction beside each other on the same row/column; has 1 tile corridor blind spot but it's the best you can do with no 360 assuming no impossible approaches), or marine support (i.e. weakening the offensive by pulling PFCs to defense; something that's sure to enhance bog down and make fighting even _more_ defensive) to achieve a comparable level of coverage; being 'smart' doesn't really change new fundamental limitations with the sentry.
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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by LocalizedDownpour » 31 Jan 2018, 20:04

Surrealistik wrote:
31 Jan 2018, 19:32
You can use the sentry to cover those areas but it is much less effective and will require either additional sentries (each facing the opposite direction beside each other on the same row/column; has 1 tile corridor blind spot but it's the best you can do with no 360 assuming no impossible approaches), or marine support (i.e. weakening the offensive by pulling PFCs to defense; something that's sure to enhance bog down and make fighting even _more_ defensive) to achieve a comparable level of coverage; being 'smart' doesn't really change new fundamental limitations with the sentry.
Then just don't have Triage/supply lines in areas that can be reached from all sides, you'll have to be smart and work with what your tools can do and build against a wall or in a corner. And you you're solely relying on a sentry to be a workhorse and completely protect a triage/supply area, you have it coming when more then one xeno comes in and wrecks the joint.

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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by Surrealistik » 31 Jan 2018, 20:10

LocalizedDownpour wrote:
31 Jan 2018, 20:04
Then just don't have Triage/supply lines in areas that can be reached from all sides, you'll have to be smart and work with what your tools can do and build against a wall or in a corner. And you you're solely relying on a sentry to be a workhorse and completely protect a triage/supply area, you have it coming when more then one xeno comes in and wrecks the joint.
Here's the thing: it works because most Benos are dealing with the marine front and you only have the flankers/skirmishers to deal with.

Since only directional coverage works with the sentry, you basically will always have a significant blind spot with one sentry unless you're literally set up in an indent. The problem with playing to the terrain is that you also have to keep tactical considerations in mind (i.e. where is the xeno front, where is the marine front, where is the closest secure area), and they won't always mesh with the 'ideal' place to put down a triage dump. In practice what this means is that you will have to pull PFCs off the front if you can't get your ideal location which happens more often than not.

The bottom line is that this is a nerf you often can't play around, and promises to compound defensive fighting and bog down.
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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by davidofmk771 » 31 Jan 2018, 20:13

Alright, the click thing is really killing me, maybe its the comparative effect, but I feel like I never had to click this much just to pick something up.

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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by LocalizedDownpour » 31 Jan 2018, 20:16

Surrealistik wrote:
31 Jan 2018, 20:10
Here's the thing: it works because most Benos are dealing with the marine front and you only have the flankers/skirmishers to deal with.

Since only directional coverage works with the sentry, you basically will always have a significant blind spot with one sentry unless you're literally set up in an indent. The problem with playing to the terrain is that you also have to keep tactical considerations in mind (i.e. where is the xeno front, where is the marine front, where is the closest secure area), and they won't always mesh with the 'ideal' place to put down a triage dump. In practice what this means is that you will have to pull PFCs off the front if you can't get your ideal location which happens more often than not.

The bottom line is that this is a nerf you often can't play around, and promises to compound defensive fighting and bog down.
Oh it's most certainly a nerf, I'm just saying it's one easily worked around. Having a triage guard/guards which you should have anyway really...

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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by Surrealistik » 31 Jan 2018, 20:20

LocalizedDownpour wrote:
31 Jan 2018, 20:16
Oh it's most certainly a nerf, I'm just saying it's one easily worked around. Having a triage guard/guards which you should have anyway really...
No, it is not easily worked around in practice.

Please refer to what I just posted.

And pulling PFCs means a more ponderous offensive and more entrenchment which is not something that we should be encouraging for marines.
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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by LocalizedDownpour » 31 Jan 2018, 20:27

Surrealistik wrote:
31 Jan 2018, 20:20
No, it is not easily worked around in practice.

Please refer to what I just posted.

And pulling PFCs means a more ponderous offensive and more entrenchment which is not something that we should be encouraging for marines.
It just requires more planning to be effective now. Defending your soft targets is less brain dead down, as it should be.

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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by Surrealistik » 31 Jan 2018, 20:31

LocalizedDownpour wrote:
31 Jan 2018, 20:27
It just requires more planning to be effective now. Defending your soft targets is less brain dead down, as it should be.
...

No.

Listen: your options for setting down a triage are limited by real tactical considerations; you are not playing in a theorycraft vacuum where you can always get that perfect niche location and still be able to effectively support the frontline; that's not a thing.

If you can't get that ideal location, as is pretty likely, you will suffer the otherwise indelible limitations of your nerfed sentry.
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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by Surrealistik » 31 Jan 2018, 21:06

Did not stun Young Spitter 799 despite being at point blank range:

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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by Crab_Spider » 31 Jan 2018, 23:21

Surrealistik wrote:
31 Jan 2018, 01:32
Chemistry is definitely less smooth/more clunky.
Heh.
You will never be as bad as the baldie who picked up a tactical shotgun while a hunter was pouncing on top of a CMO for 4 seconds, with his only response being to pace around before being decap'd by said hunter. You are not Brett Kimple, and you never will be. You are not the reason why I regular MP.

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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by immaspaceninja » 31 Jan 2018, 23:34

Symbiosis wrote:
31 Jan 2018, 16:38
The sentry nerf was coming for a while.

Marines would horde sentries for the SD defense attempting to stack 3-4 in a small room with a single chokepoint.
The problem with marines hoarding sentry guns to SD is the problem with SD itself. Barely anyone likes an idea of holding a single room with 1 entrance for half an hour, even marines. It got stale quickly, its the same pretty much every time. Its boring.
Symbiosis wrote:
31 Jan 2018, 16:38
Then Marines would leave them at unmanned checkpoints and hide mines under floor tiles, meaning a single claymore would kill any Xeno who wandered close without any Marine involvement.
I beg you, no more. Stahp. That bugreport was too much on its own. You already called it a 'new meta' and claimed that 'everyone' does this in every place you could. Feel free to observe a couple of rounds and see how many competent engies we have actually have.
The sentry nerf wasnt 'coming for a while' due to this. In fact, killing a xeno tougher than a mature t1/young t2 with claymore + sentry gun, without marine assistance, only became possible with the recent change to explosives.
And i think that young runner (420) is, well, supposed to die to something like this if he's running around the FOB without paying attention to a bunch of out-of-place junk lying on the ground right infront of the baricades.

While i agree that such combo should NOT be able to kill stronger aliens, the problem should've never been solved by hammering sentry with nerfs.


As for 360 more removal, it is too harsh. It had to be nerfed difenetely, because of how big of a beast a 360 mode sentry was, but the nerf should've involved something like cutting half of its burst in this mode and not removing it completely.
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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by Symbiosis » 01 Feb 2018, 03:51

immaspaceninja wrote:
31 Jan 2018, 23:34
The problem with marines hoarding sentry guns to SD is the problem with SD itself. Barely anyone likes an idea of holding a single room with 1 entrance for half an hour, even marines. It got stale quickly, its the same pretty much every time. Its boring.



I beg you, no more. Stahp. That bugreport was too much on its own. You already called it a 'new meta' and claimed that 'everyone' does this in every place you could. Feel free to observe a couple of rounds and see how many competent engies we have actually have.
The sentry nerf wasnt 'coming for a while' due to this. In fact, killing a xeno tougher than a mature t1/young t2 with claymore + sentry gun, without marine assistance, only became possible with the recent change to explosives.
And i think that young runner (420) is, well, supposed to die to something like this if he's running around the FOB without paying attention to a bunch of out-of-place junk lying on the ground right infront of the baricades.

While i agree that such combo should NOT be able to kill stronger aliens, the problem should've never been solved by hammering sentry with nerfs.


As for 360 more removal, it is too harsh. It had to be nerfed difenetely, because of how big of a beast a 360 mode sentry was, but the nerf should've involved something like cutting half of its burst in this mode and not removing it completely.
Observe a Xeno round and see how many competent Xenos we have. I didn't claim everyone does it, but it was being done enough that clearly it warranted a look at. I agree, Young Runner (420) should die after hitting a claymore.

But the gimmick allows Ancient Hunters to die if they didn't right click every tile - or, if the mine was laid under a piece of trash that was previously cleared. It encourages autism FOB's and hiding behind barricades when Marines greatly outnumber the Xenos... because it allows them to whittle the Xenos down. It encouraged the wrong behavior.
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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by Surrealistik » 01 Feb 2018, 04:49

Symbiosis wrote:
01 Feb 2018, 03:51
Observe a Xeno round and see how many competent Xenos we have. I didn't claim everyone does it, but it was being done enough that clearly it warranted a look at. I agree, Young Runner (420) should die after hitting a claymore.

But the gimmick allows Ancient Hunters to die if they didn't right click every tile - or, if the mine was laid under a piece of trash that was previously cleared. It encourages autism FOB's and hiding behind barricades when Marines greatly outnumber the Xenos... because it allows them to whittle the Xenos down. It encouraged the wrong behavior.
What encourages the wrong behaviour is having not one, but both engineer premium options be exclusively defense oriented.

Also again, even if totally unmanned mine + sentry pairings were meta (which they really weren't), the solution that was advanced is a complete overkill, and in actuality doesn't even necessarily prevent that given how much damage the sentry deals at closer ranges. It is the literal definition of taking a sledgehammer to a scalpel job.

Also I'm willing to bet money that the goal of the change wasn't to prevent 'automated kills' so much as to A: nerf marines generally and B: force marines into taking the M56D by making the sentry relatively less attractive via nerfs.
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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by immaspaceninja » 01 Feb 2018, 05:18

Symbiosis wrote:
01 Feb 2018, 03:51
But the gimmick allows Ancient Hunters to die if they didn't right click every tile - or, if the mine was laid under a piece of trash that was previously cleared.
Like i said, stronger aliens were always able to survive this combo before the explosives update. Blame the claymores and ss13 stun-based combat, not sentry guns.
However, the ammount of 'dont let marines hide claymores' suggestion i saw thru the last 2,5 years is pretty close to 'remove ap ammo' ones.
Symbiosis wrote:
01 Feb 2018, 03:51
It encourages autism FOB's and hiding behind barricades when Marines greatly outnumber the Xenos... because it allows them to whittle the Xenos down. It encouraged the wrong behavior.
So does the map and game design.
Simply look at the ice. The chances of marines winning a fight in the undeground against semi-competent xenos are close to zero, unless xenos are outnumbered 1 to 10.
I just see this kind of situation way too often. Marines win a fight, xenos retreat and hide in some room surrounded by 1/2 tile wide coridors in some area that cant be CAS'd or OB'd. The engineering changes made it impossible to create wider entrances without having a bag full of c-4(Also the caves in LV cant be made wider at all), so most of the marine force probably dies in those thin coridors of hell, they retreat. I see no real reason to make them go back in, especially now, when the sentry gun's 360 mode got cut and xenos have easier time roaming. You probably dont know how annoying it is to see an elite hunter run around your fall back route, which you cant secure, due to lack of manpower, killing and heavily wounding not only lone marines, but even groups of 3 and 4, especially on ice, where you're simply way too slow to even dodge his attacks. From what i've heard, the buckshot's stun got nerfed as well, which makes dealing with said roamers even harder.
Also, uh, the IB and PERI medical changes.
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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by misto » 01 Feb 2018, 05:34

LocalizedDownpour wrote:
31 Jan 2018, 19:22
They just shifted the Sentries role to area denial.
how were sentries not already about area denial? they absolutely were already about area denial. well, the only big deal is 360 mode being removed, and that's frankly not a huge deal. by the time you had to switch your sentry to 360 mode, it probably meant you were already basically surrounded and doomed.

even with these nerfs, sentry remains the generally superior choice, because it has iff and its targeting system doesn't go SSD or get distracted and run off to get killed, unlike the damn mounted dumbgun's targeting system.

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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by Gnorse » 01 Feb 2018, 09:48

Again, No.
aliens have the literal exact same thing (Hugger traps) so don't just complain about claymores.
At least claymores Don't tell you if they get triggered, they have a limited supply AND they stun you for a much shorter time.
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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by LocalizedDownpour » 01 Feb 2018, 10:54

Gnorse wrote:
01 Feb 2018, 09:48
Again, No.
aliens have the literal exact same thing (Hugger traps) so don't just complain about claymores.
At least claymores Don't tell you if they get triggered, they have a limited supply AND they stun you for a much shorter time.
Hugger traps also deal zero damage, are useless if marines are pushing as a wave where a xeno cannot capitalize on a trigger and are generally only useful with people around. Much like the claymores, unless a sentry gun is around.

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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by LocalizedDownpour » 01 Feb 2018, 11:02

Also it's like I said earlier, and what Surr just said. This was just a marine nerf, not because the sentry was too strong, but the marines winning 100+ games out of 150 in the month of January.

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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by misto » 01 Feb 2018, 11:08

hugger traps are great and are not "useless if marines are pushing as a wave" because every marine cut out of that push to run back for surgery is valuable time and manpower sent packing

if marines really are winning too often, i encourage the devs to look more at updating xeno gameplay options (not just the queen, who has gotten a ton of love lately) rather than resorting to flat marine nerfs

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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by Symbiosis » 01 Feb 2018, 11:14

misto wrote:
01 Feb 2018, 11:08
hugger traps are great and are not "useless if marines are pushing as a wave" because every marine cut out of that push to run back for surgery is valuable time and manpower sent packing
Left click the hugger with your weapon. It's not instant. There's counterplay even if you don't right click every tile.

There was no counterplay to hidden Claymores and Sentries.
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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by misto » 01 Feb 2018, 11:17

there is a slight degree of counterplay to hidden claymores, but it demands extreme caution and careful examination of scattered trash via right clicking, and then pestering a crusher to do its mine clearing job - and we both know that blasting the hugger in the split second before it latches on is a fairly rare feat!

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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by Sulaboy » 01 Feb 2018, 13:47

AUTO DOCS BABY. Neato, seems they can do everything besides larva removal from what the changelog said. I wonder if it keeps patients stable while it's working on them.
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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by misto » 01 Feb 2018, 13:50

the queen's stupid direct heal magic is a bad addition. people spend half their time begging for queen to cast cure serious wounds or bitching because she was too slow in doing so to save some dumb ass who shouldnt have been letting themselves get shot up in the first place. it distracts from the queen's guidance and observation duties and clutters hivemind chat with said begging/bitching instead of exchanging relevant tactical information

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Re: Updates discussion thread

Post by Surrealistik » 01 Feb 2018, 14:05

BMC777 updated:
Separated regular click and attack click response time. Attack clicks should remain unchanged, regular clicks should feel much more responsive.


Thank you; easily the thing I wanted most of all.

Are attack clicks only concerned with melee attacks, or do they include clicking an alien with your rifle to shoot at it from a distance? Hopefully not the latter as I had to double click to shoot them regularly.
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