Updates discussion thread

[caleeb101]

the free larva thing causes heavy swings. at peak hours when lots of people are willing to play xeno, ha ha, well you can see for yourself what can happen. at lowpop hours it merely gives extra lives to the few people online willing to play xeno, and those extra lives start over from young t1 of course, unless the marines have forced their way into the braindead larva chamber and slaughtered them all. this is an inconsistent solution reliant on ooc factors, and undermines the usefulness of capture-centric classes such as the carrier.

hey, there's an idea. how about you just buff the carrier to make it better at its job instead of handing out free larva from nowhere? or, if not the carrier, then the thrown facehuggers? they have a bad habit of just sitting there until they get shot

carrier is already pretty good with the ability to hold huggers in its hands now

it's a walking remnant of hugger combat and that my friend is why it's good enough already

the problem is more that there's an easier way to obtain larva now so it's not as necessary to rely on carriers but it doesn't mean they aren't good

[Rio]

*snip*
But I seek, after 7 to 10 hours of work, enjoyment, RP and the challenge that CM used to offer just several months ago.
*snip*

So very much this.

After wanting to blow my brains for X amount of hours in order to eak out a meager if comfortable existence on this rock with an air bubble floating through space, I want to come home and enjoy myself and not feel stressed or annoyed. But increasingly when I come to CM I end up feeling more annoyed and stressed in the end because of how the gameplay balance was so out of whack that the RP half of the experience becomes less enjoyable. I'm not going to bother spending time building a character and repertoire with people if the dropship is going to immediately camped by crushers and boilers on landing because of an arbitrary time limit on drops.

The biggest symbol of these changes for the worst is the Sentry Turret. Something that used to strike fear in hearts of xenos and would keep them at bay from an approach. Marines could go off to guard other areas because they knew Comrade Sentry would watch their backs.

Now they're a joke. Something I've seen T2s pounce from the front and knock over with ease as if it were nothing. Something that once could singlehandedly hold off a xeno assault can now be knocked over with a Finger Poke of Doom.

[misto]

if you want more xenos make xenos more interesting and varied to play. yes, even the t1s. not just stacking more and more features onto the queen

[caleeb101]

Comrade sentry? More like Comrade only good in last stand SD defence in a pair of two...

amirite

[Symbiosis]

Kesserline - part of the issue is that Marines don't play Xeno often enough.

It makes it very difficult for the developers to balance the strength of Xenos when Marines don't switch over when they die or are husked.

So, thus, they are forced to experiment. Before these updates Marines were rolling the hive at 45 minutes in.

Why? Partially because a good chunk of Xeno players aren't very robust but the baldness of a T3 hurts the Hive more than a bald PFC, partially because bald Queens died early which led to the hive scattering and being chased down.

Before the responsibility of the Hives success was tied to having a perfect or near perfect group of Xenos that worked well together AND a non suicidal Queen. Or... a really good Queen that led Xenos into appropriate situations.

Xeno players aren't perfect and are heavily punished by mistakes (yes, Xenos can respawn if there's Larva, but you lose all evolve and upgrade progress) in a game that requires a smaller group of players to beat back a far larger and generally more competent group.

The shoes on the other foot. Xeno players were in your position 2-3 months ago lamenting Queens that couldn't speak English. You'll adapt. You'll learn to stop building autism FOB's and instead direct metal towards supply lines and fallback points, smaller secure areas.

[Kesserline]

I can say negatory on many aspects of your statement Symbiosis :
Competent marines? If every marine would be able to kill on their own or critically assist in a kill before dying, USCM would win every time.

It is clearly not the case. Worse, the non-competent marines cause the good marines to die (FF, using resources they are not worth using, unable to coordinate, body blocking, causing flood of useless wounded).

I am not a robust marine, but I can become, when in the mood and with the players in the mood, a godlike SL with Delta. The result? I am now fairly meta-targeted on various occasions. Certains Xenos make the extra miles, take the extra risks to take me out. Not because of my SL sprite (because I can be aSL) , but because of my name.

Imagine Murry, or Lisa, or Miranda, that would be even worse for them.

I cannot be CE/RO/SL and PFC at the same time, I can only try to do my best in a single field, in a single round.
One single mistake I make? I am taken out of the round. But worse, if another around me, or in command, or in req, or in engineering, or in medbay make a mistake? I can be fucked too indirectly. A single LT with a bad OB can turn a successful counter-offensive into a Xeno Major.

The current updates force the marines to turtle up, cowering in fear. That means when I attack, when I flank, I risk being taken out of the rounds for hours. And the worst? Those who agree to follow me are taken out too.

Shall I go bravo and embrace the FOB-way-of-life?

I repeat this, the Challenge became DarkSoul++ difficulty. I can adapt myself, but I can't adapt others in their place.
If whatever I can do is pointless, why should I bother joining and fighting? Being a drop of water in the ocean is not interesting.

I am not looking for a 50/50 win rate. Because the imperfect-balance design is what I love in CM, but there is a limit between imperfect and unfair.

[Symbiosis]

Kesserline - Overall competence of Xenos compared to overall competence of Marines is probably hard to prove. Win rate prior to these changes is pretty telling, however.

What is easier to prove is the impact one bad Xeno player can have on the Xenos. You mentioned Hotshot, Spartan, yourself, Miranda... all very capable Marines that generally are able to destroy Xenos without much difficulty. They're also wise enough not to venture out alone into the darkness so they impact the round heavily. You can probably name quite a few robust Marines... how many Xeno Mains do you know of? Not as many. If and when they die their deaths have a big impact on the Hive.

The question of competency and bad Xenos... well, it's pretty common to be body blocked by young T1's, deal with Bald Queens, and those entail the same risks that bald Marines have on robust Marines. Death.

So the way I see it Devs had a few options.

Buff raw statistics of all Xenos to make the more robust Xeno players invincible OR provide more Larva to compensate for early round deaths.

They could whitelist Queen (as if) or create an environment where she was physically more powerful.

So, what's really "changed"?

More Xenos? Crusher/Rav/Prae Queen?

Medical changes have been gutted to where they're a shadow of their initial selves. In a lot of ways Marines are better off. They even added an auto doc. Sure, B18 is pretty useless, now. But the RPG is more powerful.

The biggest change I've seen is autism FOBs. 7-10 layers thick. Multiple Sentries. Flanks defended.

Xenos won't siege them early or when outnumbered - but guess what... Marines eventually get ordered out and the moment they overextend (since all that metal was spent on the FOB) they get wasted.

You want to stand a better chance? More opportunity to RP?

Build a 2 layer FOB. Build 5 layers of SECURE supply lines that are well lit and patrolled. That'll help you not get steamrolled.

[Kesserline]

Aye, true on all that. I get your point.

[Symbiosis]

Aye, true on all that. I get your point.

I'm going to make a map, using BR as an example, of what I see every round AND how, as a Xeno who exploits the Marines every round, you could greatly diminish getting flanked. The biggest issue I see is that so many Engineers are sent to the front OR build something alone. They don't work efficiently nor quickly and are often meta targeted.

It'd be a thing of beauty to have the Engineers work as a single group, all 8, and have them move from place to place fortifying and the like. Gimme a bit over an hour, brotha!

[thatguyfromlife]

It'd be a thing of beauty to have the Engineers work as a single group, all 8, and have them move from place to place fortifying and the like.

That would be wonderful, if engineers used the damn engineering channel and actually TALKED to each other. I feel lucky when the other engi in my squad talks to me. If the engineers stopped acting like frontline PFCs maybe they'd live long enough to set up fallback areas.

[Surrealistik]

That would be wonderful, if engineers used the damn engineering channel and actually TALKED to each other. I feel lucky when the other engi in my squad talks to me. If the engineers stopped acting like frontline PFCs maybe they'd live long enough to set up fallback areas.

► Show Spoiler

But yeah thus far the current skew of the balance isn't fun at all, particularly after a long day at work, and winning as marine now seems to require all the stars aligning in addition to incompetent beanos.

[Sulaboy]

I think the mini injectors update is a good thing, we might see more overdoses, but now we will see less expended injectors on the ground. Marines also have their tricord back which is good, as it helps them deal with brute that could cause a break, or burn that just takes too long to go away. Anyway anyone know how many units are in these mini injectors. Also we might see less marines raiding first aid boxes, and vending extra first aid pouches for tramadol.

[NicoDeimos]

Call me pedantic, but I'm not too fond of the idea that the act of helping somebody should be a game of RNG with the potential (though slim due to reduced doses) to accidentally OD yourself. It really doesn't make sense that a group of people who were theoretically trained to shoot automatic weapons accurately could somehow fail to stick the pointy end of an injector into someone other than themself.

People joke about marines being too dumb to read a medicine label, but that makes gameplay sense to prevent powergaming self-sufficiency. This is just preventing standards from assisting with wounded using autoinjectors they were supposed to already know how to use. What if the medics are inaccessible and a group of standards are stuck with critically wounded in a bad spot? Better just leave them for dead, since there's now a chance trying to inject them with painkillers so they can move just won't even work. That 5u of tram would be more reliable to keep the healthy marine mobile if they happen to stub their toe while running away.

[Surrealistik]

Definitely agree that the RNG chance to randomly stick yourself is silly; if stopping the Utility PFC was a priority, the reduced capacity itself is effective at discouraging that playstyle (or alternately making it work like a needle jab where a random amount is administered rather than the full/usual quantity; making it inefficient but situationally viable in a real emergency).

[Sulaboy]

I think the marines ought to be able to keep themselves running with these mini injectors. Tramadol does a great job of keeping marines awake, talk to the injured marine to see if they still have tram in their system. They might be yelling at you to give them some team so they can move. I don't think these mini injectors are a high enough dosage to reliably OD a marine. I don't know the exact unit court but if it is 5 units then it would take 6 injections of tramadol to OD a marine, this wouldn't happen unless a marine decided to load themselves up on chemicals. The tricord also helps a lot, lowering the burn and brute damage will still help with pain tolerance. If the first aid a marine is provided with doesn't get them back on their feet it is up to a medic or doctor to sort out this severe injury. One thing I think needs to be added is a better way to examine marines for injuries. Right now we see where the blood is coming from and just keep trying to apply gauze around the marine to see if we can treat them. Overall I think these mini injectors are good, now marines don't have to worry as much about giving another marine their tramadol if they fall down because it is possible to restock when needed. This change also helps medical staff become less burdened, and be able to focus on the big injuries like broken bones, internal bleeding, organ damage, and in some cases overdoses. I don't think it will be easy to OD marines with this change, I feel that this change was pretty well thought out.
Also the new surgical trays seem really nice, no more backpacks in the OTs.

[thatguyfromlife]

So these marine law updates, amirite?

Leave out spare equipment for PFC's? Brig. Save a marines life as a non-medic? Brig. Make effective and useful drug mixtures? Brig.

What could go wrong?

[Surrealistik]

Technically it's illegal to inject yourself with tramadol.

[Blade2000Br]

I love how you guys make such a extreme big deal, like MPs would lurk around you for injecting yourself with a unit of tram.

This is to prevent powergamey tactics, not gulag you down.

[Sulaboy]

It doesn't say anything about changes to marine law on the changelog but I guess that would be more of a wiki think. Also why do the mini auto injectors have a chance to jab yourself on use, that seems a bit weird. Also pill bottles cannot be opened by marines anymore, due to a child lock.

[thatguyfromlife]

I love how you guys make such a extreme big deal, like MPs would lurk around you for injecting yourself with a unit of tram.

This is to prevent powergamey tactics, not gulag you down.

The first round they changes were known my SL got thrown in the brig for setting the flamers out in prep. Then a medic got brigged for getting supplies in medbay.

I doubt all MP's are gonna prowl looking for this stuff, but some are using it for valids.

[Mann handle]

Got to say that the new laws are poorly drawn up and can be turned into balloon animals if the MP in question is that much of a valid hunting arse. Not to mention the level of inconsistency with the sentences, all the new laws have 15 minutes as a minimum while assault and insubordination which can be seen as a bigger pain for the marines only have 10 minutes.

All this will do is cause valid hunters nothing but glee now they can in effect soft grief people, while the meta interactions between players will be even worse due to the fact that someone went out of their way to arrest as many marines they could in the previous round and will find themselves on a shitlist of maybe medics and other marines who COULD save them.

[Cpkeyes]

I love how you guys make such a extreme big deal, like MPs would lurk around you for injecting yourself with a unit of tram.

This is to prevent powergamey tactics, not gulag you down.

Why is everything about powergaming for you. Honestly, you come across as trying to shrill at this point who uses a scapegoat.
You can't even consider for a minute that someone may have a point about them being bad, just...grow up.
Also, this is probably going to be used by shitlords to grief, even through it is actually impossible to enforce,at least the medical thing.

Because apparently saving someone's life is illegal.

[Skimmy2]

Why is everything about powergaming for you. Honestly, you come across as trying to shrill at this point who uses a scapegoat.
You can't even consider for a minute that someone may have a point about them being bad, just...grow up.
Also, this is probably going to be used by shitlords to grief, even through it is actually impossible to enforce,at least the medical thing.

Because apparently saving someone's life is illegal.

The Administration uses MPs to combat powergaming(amongst other things), hence the new additions to Marine Law.
You can say it's poorly implemented all you want, doesint change that a MP is bound by server rules to arrest you.

[Rio]

like MPs would lurk around you for injecting yourself with a unit of tram.

Yes, because MPs are different from round to round, and not every one is good.

I've been arrested for "trespassing in medbay" because I was there before briefing to receive medical treatment for my broken bones and internal bleeding from the grenade someone threw at my feet, and then nearly died in the brig. I've been tazed and arrested for having a rifle out while the ship was on red alert. I've been arrested for "acting suspicious" as an MT because I was running around maintenance replacing lightbulbs (I even had a satchel full of broken bulbs).

Shitty MPs will find any reason to drag someone in to either make themselves look productive or make rounds not boring. Expending Marine Law without making its implementation specific just means that now the shitty MPs will have more excuses to start trouble.

snip

Except now things are being labeled as "powergaming" which were once just considered normal by everyone (including admins).

Laws like this-

Practicing Medicine WIthout A License

Only authorized medical personnel should be performing treatments beyond bandages, ointments, or a tricordrazine autoinjector. Any personnel not licensed who distribute medication for consumption or administer medication are considered practicing without a license.

-can be interpreted in a way which make very common beneficial practices illegal. The law does not state whether tramadol is legal to inject by non-medics because it is not specified. Also, this makes possession and use of equipment like splints illegal for use by non-medical personnel. I've lost count of the times I've seen people grab splints to wrap a broken leg, or medics to distribute equipment to non-medical personnel who are assisting in triage because they may be dealing with more bodies they can heal at one time.

This law makes being a first responder or triage assistant something an MP can punish if they so choose, and eventually someone will end up in the brig for rendering aid to their comrades.



Laws are written to be very specific for a reason. Because if every law enforcement officer was left to interpret the law on their own, you leave room for the law open to be interpreted outside of the legislator's intent. Likewise, making new laws and leaving them vague will mean MPs do not have a concrete definition for what can be considered a violation, and thus whether it is a violation or not is theirs to decide.

TL;DR: These laws are stupid and will only cause trouble.

[zoboomafoo]

Well everyone is so white they look sick now. Also our faces have no noses or mouths and look like bare skulls when view from the front. Side on looks alright though.