Tactical Paradox

[Renomaki]

Say, have you ever played a round where, after doing the same thing round after round, you just go "I wish our CO would do something different?", and then they do?...

... And then no one even bothers to do as they were told and resort to old metas instead?

This is what I like to call the Tactical Paradox, the result of marines (it also applies to xenos and predators) yearning for something to change things up a bit, only to get just what they want and complain about it to the point of even outright refusing to comply, instead doing what they always did round after round before.

I been around for nearly a year now, and in all my time playing, I always did kinda notice this trend. Sure, sometimes marines are willing to try new things if it sounds "ok" enough for them [such as building an FoB just south of LV's LZ1], but other times more bizarre tactics tend to be shunned by people. Tell marines to make an FoB anywhere else other than a common location for said FoB, and they will consider you an idiot. Make DS2 the main troop transport over DS1? People will complain. Inform some of the squads that they will be deploying at a later time instead of all at once? They will outright ignore you and probably go anyways.

See, while people do want to try new things, they don't want to try things that could risk their CHANCES at victory. Even if the CO thought ahead and prepared his battle-plan accordingly, people may still not trust the CO if they don't agree with his tactics (moreso if they are untested), so people just regress to what they know worked in the past.

again, this doesn't always happen. It depends a lot on who happens to be SLing at the time [as well as who happens to be in each squad in general]. A squad consisted of loyal and understanding marines may be more willing to perform new tactics than a squad that is more ramshackle and brutish.

So... I ask you... How do we try new things without irking people too much?

[Sleepy Retard]

the only way to try new things is to do "innovative" and "smart" different things, which are in reality are things that are done 30% of the time versus 60% of the time.

uhh, besides that, low pop i guess.

[Blade2000Br]

I once tried a No-FOB strategy and DS2 main transport and on top of that, a Pseudo-FOB (that was supposed to be a god dam triage center but marines went to make a FOB) on medical in Big-Red to spice things up.

Apparently, Marines turned dumb because 3 squads got wiped out... in less than 5 seconds of battle with the xenos. Like, what. It was just a series of complciated and new strategys to spice up.

It was fun, though.

[Heckenshutze]

Marines don't response well to changes on their unga dunga.

Sometimes I'd like we had more enforced behaviour on marines like we do with xenos, make them act more like a true military corp

[Symbiosis]

Maps. Use MS PAINT to draw a small map of your battle plan. No FOB at LZ1? Fine, but prepare for drops every 10 minutes rather than 5 (so small groups of Marines don't get ganked).

Is your goal for a non meta tactic? Do the tactics revolve around FOB's or military movements? I will say one thing - not securing a LZ/Telecomms results in a quick death for the Marines. The Xenos will flank that shit hard.

[Casany]

Honestly, a lotta people care way to much about winning. This is why this happens so often, if the marines can't win using the strategy then they aren't gonna do it.

Maybe tell one squad to make a mini-FOB on LZ1 but use LZ2 as the main transport? Xenos can't flank all that easily and the marines'll probably listen at least.

[Sir Lordington]

Yes, I've noticed this too. Squads will either do their own thing or resort to meta a lot of the time, but when you do pull it off, it's great, so I'd say it's worth it to keep trying.

[Voldirs]

It is simple. The tactic that is used most commonly (for LV its building FOB in hydro/nexus) results in more marine majors rather than some kind of bizarre tactics including building no FOB or building FOBs in ... jungles? If someone will invent really simple and reliable strategy to win agains against xeno, that one will become commonly used (or nerfed by devs).
Most marines do really want to win or make it possible at least.

There is no chance of winning if the way from LZ to the frontline is not secured, if fresh marines cant safely walk to the frontlines, if medics cant safely transfer wounded back to LZ. Its all about of availability of LZ and defendable environment.

[TehSpoderman]

I want the maptables in CiC to be usable so we can upload orders and battlelines to individual squads to show where they go/where the FoB is etc.

[Casany]

It is simple. The tactic that is used most commonly (for LV its building FOB in hydro/nexus) results in more marine majors rather than some kind of bizarre tactics including building no FOB or building FOBs in ... jungles?

Well, this isn't quite true. Sure, because they've used the strategy so long it SEEMS like they get more wins with it, but in reality the current meta could really be tweaked to be much better. For example:
Instead of securing nexus, secure the LZ and cargo. Wall off nexus to try and force a xeno assault through the top area where its easier to defend.
Use the cargo domes as a front line. Then, instead of having twists and turns and an entire path which you have to secure you just have a straight line of defenses.
OR
Instead of going through north nexus, go west. Secure the west path, and form a forward base (not an FOB) in FITNESS. lure the xenos to hydro where an SL will have hopefully set up and hid an OB, and then launch a counter attack

Both of those strategies would be much better than any other strat used now. The problem is that marines have used those subpar strats since the map came out so they ASSUME it works the best when in reality its just been used the most. Hydro is a horrible place to defend, so is north nexus.

[Renomaki]

Tactical paradox also comes in the form of ignorance.

On Big Red, for instance, marines will always build their defenses in such a way that it is only useful if the xenos mount an attack from medbay or security. They never set up defenses in the event Tcomms is breached, and even if they do, it is often very minor or temporary.

This could easily be fixed by building INSIDE of the hanger, rather than simply building just outside of it as marines always do. But marines, for whatever reason, always build outside, same place, similar design over and over, no matter how many times it fails them... All because it worked a few times before.

Or how about LV, where during the big battle of the river, xenos ALWAYS take medbay 9 out of 10 rounds, and the marines never pay much attention to it until it is too late. You'd think marines would learn to be more mindful of their flanks, but NOPE... They just keep marching to hydro and assume the xenos would NEVER set up a small haven within medbay from which to heal and attack from, no sir.

Marines are more than willing to bitch and complain about it, but time and time again, they do nothing. If marines would adapt and evolve more often, then xenos would have more of a challenge on their hands... Or at least marines would not get stomped down on so easily.

[NGGJamie]

Well, this isn't quite true. Sure, because they've used the strategy so long it SEEMS like they get more wins with it, but in reality the current meta could really be tweaked to be much better. For example:
Instead of securing nexus, secure the LZ and cargo. Wall off nexus to try and force a xeno assault through the top area where its easier to defend.
Use the cargo domes as a front line. Then, instead of having twists and turns and an entire path which you have to secure you just have a straight line of defenses.
OR
Instead of going through north nexus, go west. Secure the west path, and form a forward base (not an FOB) in FITNESS. lure the xenos to hydro where an SL will have hopefully set up and hid an OB, and then launch a counter attack

Both of those strategies would be much better than any other strat used now. The problem is that marines have used those subpar strats since the map came out so they ASSUME it works the best when in reality its just been used the most. Hydro is a horrible place to defend, so is north nexus.

Once during lowpop I was playing XO and I had the marines use all of their defenses in the hangar of LV and barely outward. It worked well, the xenos couldn't penetrate it because all the guns were in a tiny area. Of course this wouldn't work in highpop when you're trying to cram 50-100+ marines in this space, but for that round it stomped.

[MrJJJ]

Marines are more than willing to bitch and complain about it, but time and time again, they do nothing. If marines would adapt and evolve more often, then xenos would have more of a challenge on their hands... Or at least marines would not get stomped down on so easily.

Yeah, that has to be the most saddest thing one has to realize about most of the playerbase.

You got very few good players willing to listen to reason, willing to follow orders and whatnot, and know what they are doing. Meanwhile 95% of the other people are too busy typing something for a hour or shooting a xeno with a pistol because...reasons.

Marines seemingly CAN adapt, but once they do it even once they just stop unless something drastic and major changes it, like a complete reversal of how a entire system works or otherwise, even then its not a guarantee. While there is problems in CM that are actually not exactly players fault, they are just amplified and not helped by the entire damn baldies joining the server, not willing to learn at all or just wanting to go "pew pew pew pew pew". Seriously i can't seem to recall a single time when a FOB wasn't nexus or LZ1 constantly because those locations *work* and are the closest to a retreat point since we don't have enough sentries to cover everything and marines that are patient to wait (They can't even wait a darn minute without shooting something...main reason i started wearing a helmet again).

[Crab_Spider]

Once during lowpop I was playing XO and I had the marines use all of their defenses in the hangar of LV and barely outward. It worked well, the xenos couldn't penetrate it because all the guns were in a tiny area. Of course this wouldn't work in highpop when you're trying to cram 50-100+ marines in this space, but for that round it stomped.

Those xenos were pussies

[Bobalobdob]

Tactical paradox also comes in the form of ignorance.

On Big Red, for instance, marines will always build their defenses in such a way that it is only useful if the xenos mount an attack from medbay or security. They never set up defenses in the event Tcomms is breached, and even if they do, it is often very minor or temporary.

This could easily be fixed by building INSIDE of the hanger, rather than simply building just outside of it as marines always do. But marines, for whatever reason, always build outside, same place, similar design over and over, no matter how many times it fails them... All because it worked a few times before.

Back when I only played combat engie, I fortified the inside of the hanger with a little airlock chamber thing, northern defenses, and a secure path to the LZ paired with west defenses. I plastered caded most of Tcomms as well because when outside of the hangar I heard the BOOM BOOM BOOM of a crusher running to the west lol

[TheMaskedMan2]

Marines are more than willing to bitch and complain about it, but time and time again, they do nothing. If marines would adapt and evolve more often, then xenos would have more of a challenge on their hands... Or at least marines would not get stomped down on so easily.

Yep, pretty much. Marines don't adapt. Players are more likely to blame the game on being "biased" and "unbalanced" instead of attempting to learn from their mistakes. When you die, don't scream that it's bullshit and nothing could've been done. Think about what you could've done differently for that round as a whole, think about how to improve. Seek to overcome the challenge, not complain that it's unfair.

Honestly the most fun rounds are NOT the ones where either side stomps, they are the ones where they are both competant and engaging eachother. Problem being, Marines tend to fuck it up every time from sheer stupidity.

[Diggman88]

Or how about LV, where during the big battle of the river, xenos ALWAYS take medbay 9 out of 10 rounds, and the marines never pay much attention to it until it is too late. You'd think marines would learn to be more mindful of their flanks, but NOPE... They just keep marching to hydro and assume the xenos would NEVER set up a small haven within medbay from which to heal and attack from, no sir

I have issues with this problem, especially as hydro's squad. I have repeatedly told players that meddome needs to be defended from attack. Time and again even if the xenos knocking on the airlock as I speak, everyone ignores it. At that point I'm left with try to do it myself and likely die, go with the flow or give up and go back to Nexus to avoid the slaughter.

[Clayton_Kelly]

I don't like it when marines try new things, and then marines complain it's the reason they lose. In reality, there were probably going to lose anyway but I always like trying new things.

[Liptick]

I always follow orders from command unless my squad leader is a dickhead or incompetant. The Chain of command makes sense to me, ultimately tho if i were to wander from my squad because they all developed the rambonitis i would be alone, on a planet that was soon obviously not safe. The squad leaders are in your face on the ground giving you orders and a lot of times its easier to understansd the orders they give you because they seem to be in context with whats going on right in front of you. Assuming you have a competant staff in comand, as a grunt you often dont know the details of whats happening in other places on the map. If my squad leader gives me an order that makes sense and the command gives me an order that contradicts his and also sounds logically suicidal... ya im going to at least try to role

Marines dont win. The ultimate badass killing machines fail. Role play, this is muliplayer. Respect the game and comunity because you could be using cheat codes against ai on a single player game where you know everything due to experience. Want to be a god? Dont be a salt miner, no devine entity would ever be working in the salt mines

[misto]

i wish we could understand the unholy and mystical draw that the lv hydroponics dome has over everyone

[Crab_Spider]

i wish we could understand the unholy and mystical draw that the lv hydroponics dome has over everyone

hydrophonics is an amazing job in actual ss13

[Blade2000Br]

i wish we could understand the unholy and mystical draw that the lv hydroponics dome has over everyone

The same draw a Nexus FOB is ALWAYS made, no matter what.

Or Big-Red LZ1 that marine flip their shit if you ATTEMPT to not make a FOB there.

It's just meta, really.

[misto]

they made a mini base on bigred in that cargo hangar near the ds2 landing zone, you know, where the cows are, in a round i played yesterday. it was fairly secure and the marines mounted some okay flanking attacks from there. but it was eventually abandoned in favor of the ds1 fob anyways

[Jeser]

1. Marines represent big faction, that doesn't seem to be agile in a slightest. They are indeed bad with adapting to new circumstances, map and mechanic changes.
2. 90% of CO/XOs new plans I witnessed were... bad and couldn't hold any criticism at all. This made marines suspisicious to "Brand new tactics".
3. Lack of communication all the time makes marines often think command doesn't care much or more busy with stuff on Almayer. In that case, marines will get back into their shell - return to standard tactics.
4. About Big Red LZ1. Building barricades facing TeleComms is, IMO, completely meta, but if you won't do that, alien will steamroll you if they breach through it. Honestly, I hate that part of Big Red, because it either makes for aliens easy win posibility or make engineers feel guilty for making defenses there.

[SolarMacharius]

I feel like marines react to new strategies differently depending on the map. On LV, they do basically the same strat (FOB nexus, hold Hydro, push river). I can see why they want to hold hydro, since letting the aliens set up in a building across the river is very bad for the marines (which is why a squad should hold the medical dome so they cant flank hydro). On Big Red, as long as the FOB is at LZ1, marines are fine with whatever engagement plan you have. This is usaully rush Lambda since the aliens are always there and blatantly telegraph that they are in the labs.

Ice Colony is the map that has the most amount of freedom. Marines lose there ninety percent of the time, so the crew is oftentimes is receptive to any plan that isn't "divide the squads to landing zones on the opposite ends of the map, have two squads get mulched underground, die".

In my experience, as long as there is a defensible FOB set up planet side, marines will be open to plenty of new plans. If you try a no FOB run or want to set the FOB up in some weird ass place, people will complain. Also keep in contact with your squads at all times. Have your headsets tuned to their comms, ask your LT's for status reports often, answer questions that SL's have promptly and make regular announcements over comms. The more the marine hear from you, the more likely they are to feel a connection to command. If your orders are logical and well ordered (and you make sure they get supplies on time), they wont even get salty if they lose.