The State of Gameplay

[Wubs4Scrubs]

No, this isn't a post complaining explicitly about how any one xeno caste is OP, or talking shit about any one update. The problems I have with CM's game design have persisted for a while, and will continue to unless some significant updates are made.

The largest issue I believe that CM has in terms of its gameplay is the over-reliance on a bullet sponge system. In good games there are causes and effects to player actions. For example, in a first person shooter if you shoot at somebody you'd expect the character getting shot at to show damage or respond to getting shot. If you were playing GTA 5 and everyone you shot just stood completely still and didn't react to the bullets it would be boring to shoot stuff. If in Skyrim you hit something with a massive hammer and it just stood unphased staring at you without reacting the hit would feel empty and meaningless.

In CM the only feedback you get when you shoot Xenos is a red sprite akin to a hitmarker in Call of Duty. However it's ultimately unsatisfying to actually fight xenos in CM because the feedback for your efforts isn't satisfying. Xenos eat bullets like it's going out of style, magazine after magazine of pulse rifle fire to take a single xeno down to half HP only to have it run away and regenerate all of it in 30 seconds makes shooting xenos feel worthless. The problem is so bad that xenos often dance in front of marine lines soaking up bullets only to run away. That makes shooting at xenos literally worthless since there is no chance of any lasting effects of shooting at them, you could hit 4 shots or no shots and the outcome would be the same. Shooting xenos with stuff like slugs is actually fun because there is an immediate effect, it's fun to see a big scary xeno fall to its knees after getting hit with a slug in the chest or in other words it's actually satisfying because you can actually see what your participation in the game is doing.

A large cause of the problem is simply the way that xenos are designed. Since there are less xenos than marines, they need to be more powerful and I don't think that anybody would refute that. However, the way that they are balanced currently suffers from lazy design where xenos rely not on the skill of the player but on their massive amounts of HP. The term 'bullet sponge' is not a good term and it essentially means that the game developers were lazy and rather than make a boss or enemy more challenging through adding mechanics the game developers simply made the boss have more HP and took the easy way. As xenos get mature and get more powerful they don't gain new abilities, they don't change at all gameplay wise, rather they just turn into increasingly unfun bullet sponges.

I don't say these things to try and insult the dev team, game design is a complicated process and there are entire college courses based around designing and balancing a game to maximize player enjoyment. What I'm trying to do with this post is convey my thoughts in an articulate way that is hopefully constructive to the dev team. I just felt the need to say something because this is a problem that has existed throughout my time playing on CM, and it continues to be something I wish was addressed.

[Sleepy Retard]

I don't think bullet sponge xenos are ever going away in cm. It's just how it be foo foo

[Steelpoint]

Moving away from bullet sponge Xenos would require massive changes to the games mechanics.

Stuns still remain a core mechanic of the game, so I doubt anything else will change.

[Heckenshutze]

Only viable option I see is to make xenos lose speed when they get shot (something I believe it's already in-game)

[Casany]

Literally I’ve been saying this for half a year now.

CM is not about skill, it’s never been about skill. Player choice sacrificed for ease of access and fast action, and sacrificed for the win rate. I’m actually glad they added castes in with dynamic abilities but again these don’t require any skill, which goes against the whole idea of SS13. Of course they’re not ye same, I’m not making the comparison and saying. They’re the same. What I am saying is that the premise is, or should be still there. This is a game built on assistants who could solo entire nuke ops on their own. Here it’s crazy to even think that a single marine could take down two xenos. Because of the high numbers CM gets they developed the game around the idea of a mass wave assault, similar to the Soviet Unions battle tactics. No skill, just cheap low damage weapons and men. That’s just the marine side.

The xeno side used to had to have some skill required but they’ve dumbed it down so much. It’s a problem when a brand new player can kill a marine as a xeno. It might be satisfying for them but what’s the point in coming back or learning new tactics or anything along those lines when you can just not try and be as good as the people who try. This is the flaw that CM suffers from the most, the fact that they’ve almost made skill NOT MATTER. It’s hardly a variable now, especially on the xeno side. On the marine side skill is still a variable to take into account but xenos have lost all of that. A skilled playin playing runner is about as good as a nonskilled player playing runner. Maybe one survives longer but the unskilled player could do just as much damage.

At least, that’s my opinion on the matter

[Wubs4Scrubs]

Only viable option I see is to make xenos lose speed when they get shot (something I believe it's already in-game)

I was thinking something more along the lines of a higher crit threshold for xenos that have been shot a shit ton. Where there's a penalty for xenos who have absorbed more damage. Perhaps something like a lowered max HP the more damage they sustain, just some feature that adds more permanent damage to xenos who continually tank massive amounts of damage.

Or, the level up system for xenos could add different abilities rather than just direct better stat upgrades. I was listening to a developer interview for Killing Floor 2 a while back and it was interesting how they wanted to make enemies more challenging while also not just making them bullet sponges.

[Casany]

Only viable option I see is to make xenos lose speed when they get shot (something I believe it's already in-game)

Xenos don’t loose speed when injured, or if they do it’s a minuscule amount. Especially with castes like runner, crusher, ravager and hunter/lurker. A speed nerf doesn’t even matter to those castes because they just pounce/charge out of there.

[kroack]

Anybody who has played boiler, hunter/lurker, ravager, runner, drone, hivelord, carrier, sentinel, spitter can attest that xenos do NOT have huge HP pools.

Now, these new castes do and I think it's a welcome change because it allows more straight up fights with marines. There's some obvious rebalancing and new meta development that has to happen, obviously, for all the quirks to be worked out.

I think people who say that playing xeno doesn't require skill really haven't played enough xeno to realize that a couple burstfires from the standard pulse rifle is enough to put down elite and below for most of the castes.

[Renomaki]

To be honest, Xenos aren't really bulletsponges per-say. Rather, they are really fast healers.

Back then, a lot of xeno combat was made up of hit and run tactics and high mobility. Sure, an Elite or higher "lurker" could be the bane of the USCM if played right, and a max age sentinel can take a decent beating. But in the end, a lot of xeno combat consists of constant mobility, hit and run strikes, and light skirmishing.

The introduction of the new DEFENDER and WARRIOR castes, however, seems to be trying to change that old meta, and drag xenos into a more frontal combat playstyle over just darting in and out of combat and constantly healing in between skirmishes. These new xenos are tough, have a lot of deadly attacks, and are easy to mass in number to become the main bulk of the xeno forces. The xeno meta is going to be much more combat heavy now, something the marines are not going to adjust to easily.

See, marines were used to xenos being pussies for a long time now. One bullet is often all it takes to send a xeno running for cover, and because of how squishy xenos tended to be below elite status, a common tactic for marines is to try and rush them every chance they get, hyper aggression, corner them so they are easy to kill. But now, with the xenos having proper field troops instead of light fighters, we can't just rush them anymore. Xenos are putting up a FIGHT now, and they aren't afraid anymore to face our guns. So, what should marines do?

Well, we COULD try a more defensive doctrine, but that would have to rely on xenos being stupidly aggressive to ram into defensive positions over and over again. Being aggressive might work if the marines don't over extend, but that would require the marines to be heavily coordinated and focused, not over extending and trying to lure the xenos to them rather than coming TO them (after all, strong as they are, the new castes can still die if they soak a lot of damage from a proper firing line). We also have the mortar and tank, which we really need to start learning how to use if we are to stand a chance against the new xenos. So far, we still struggle, but I feel that in the future, those two new devices are going to need to see more action and people are going to need to learn how to use them.

But all in all... Marines are gonna need to change how they fight to deal with a new wave of sturdy combat castes. Regardless of what updates come our way, no doubt these new xenos are going to be designed for front line combat, and they are going to be a very common thing from this point on. Rushing them won't work no more, the key to success (or at least preventing steamrolls) is to adapt new tactics of some kind... SOomehow...

[Casany]

I think people who say that playing xeno doesn't require skill really haven't played enough xeno to realize that a couple burstfires from the standard pulse rifle is enough to put down elite and below for most of the castes.

I used to play both marine and xeno, and I can tell from experience that a young runner could easily take down a marine as long as they knew how to pounce and tackle-slash. I know because I used to do it. Of course you might not always kill them but you usually could break a bone or crit them.

Xenos are weak, but they heal any wounds and have speed plus armor. Just as well, not every bullet will hit a xeno. I could fire ten shots from a base pulse rifle and probably hit 6, and thats if they're standing still. So in my opinion this is just wrong, and I have experience to lead me to believe this

[Royal Griffon]

The problem is so bad that xenos often dance in front of marine lines soaking up bullets only to run away.

I've been exposed-

[Vispain]

-snip

I can agree to most if not all of this.

However, tanks are going to need a buff.
Mortars on the other hand either need a addition to make finding a point to hit easier (doubt it and imo not really needed) or... a meta develops for how to use it and use it good. Already, I know that some existing metas for the mortar are: Mortar Engineer at FOB apart of a scouting/combat squad with a actively lazing SL checking for coods, a Mortar base at FOB with a SO providing coords from the front, and (my personal favorite) gathering coords of buildings and locations on the map in game and firing on those spots when requested. Usually the last one sees use mainly in HvH rounds.


Something that really helps with the mortar is 1. Having a Pen and Paper. OR 2. Using IC Add Notes so you can remember things without well ...remembering them.

[adrenalinetooth]

The problem is so bad that xenos often dance in front of marine lines soaking up bullets only to run away. That makes shooting at xenos literally worthless since there is no chance of any lasting effects of shooting at them, you could hit 4 shots or no shots and the outcome would be the same.

A cool idea I had is that xenos can have their limbs shot off, which punishes tanking and makes marines have an impact in taking potshots.
The xeno can regenerate their limb by going to a hivelord, who can regurgitate regenerative material onto missing limb parts.
This gives the hivelord a critical role, and makes xenos think twice before tanking because it means they're probably going to have to go back to the hive to get healed by a Hivelord, taking precious battle time away.

In the same sense an alien can give a marine internal bleeding or break a bone to force a break from battle, marines could also do the same for xenos with this proposed de-limbing mechanic.

And above all else, this proposed mechanic would make firing at aliens impactful. No more shooting 5 bullets into an alien for it to only retreat, making it feel like you wasted your ammo. Each bullet could potentially delimb that alien, and take it out of the fight for a few minutes.

[Gnorse]

-snip-

I've had the delimb idea in mind for quite some time, but the hivelord part is genius.

[adrenalinetooth]

I've had the delimb idea in mind for quite some time, but the hivelord part is genius.

To build on this idea:
The hivelord would vomit the healing material onto the wound, which would take a few minutes to fully regenerate the limb. The xeno can walk around while it does its magic, but obviously missing a limb means limited functionality.
The delimbing mechanic:

• Makes hivelords important
• Encourages wounded xenos to wait inside and guard the hive while they heal, which solves the issue of "no one wants to watch the nested hosts because fighting is more fun". The wounded coming in and out to heal in the hive would cycle on defense duty, greatly helping out sentinels dedicated to nest defense.
• makes suppressing xenos a viable tactic.
• Allows marines to temporarily disable an alien, the same way an alien can disable a human by breaking a bone or something similar

[I_Solve_Practical_Problems]

Well, we COULD try a more defensive doctrine, but that would have to rely on xenos being stupidly aggressive to ram into defensive positions over and over again. Being aggressive might work if the marines don't over extend, but that would require the marines to be heavily coordinated and focused, not over extending and trying to lure the xenos to them rather than coming TO them (after all, strong as they are, the new castes can still die if they soak a lot of damage from a proper firing line). We also have the mortar and tank, which we really need to start learning how to use if we are to stand a chance against the new xenos. So far, we still struggle, but I feel that in the future, those two new devices are going to need to see more action and people are going to need to learn how to use them.

But all in all... Marines are gonna need to change how they fight to deal with a new wave of sturdy combat castes. Regardless of what updates come our way, no doubt these new xenos are going to be designed for front line combat, and they are going to be a very common thing from this point on. Rushing them won't work no more, the key to success (or at least preventing steamrolls) is to adapt new tactics of some kind... SOomehow...

I'd want to see what balance changes the devs have in mind before making sweeping statements about the meta, because I think the current super-hives are an anomaly. I'm not sure I agree with your premise though. I think marines are limited strategically as well as mechanically speaking to the point that the mortar/CAS/tank/OB would require serious buffs to counteract a full throttle xeno brawl.

It's my understanding that marines for the longest time were balanced to be most competitive in the early game, and only in the midgame do the xenos become more powerful, culminating in an unstoppable death charge on the Almayer. Although this recent update might have shifted that, I still think that design methodology is still in play which limits marines. In the early game, the marines can either aggressively scout, which will lead to a butcher with the new xenos, or they can play it defensively which defers the butchering to the mid-late game. Furthermore, baiting the xenos would only work in the midgame after a squad has already taken serious losses because it would be meta to draw all forces back into an ambush after engaging ostensibly dumb 'bugs.' Therefore, as it stands, it's a losing proposition for the marines. Either they're limited by their metaknowledge or they're limited in options.

As for the mortars and support weapons, not only are they expensive for req to kit out but difficult to effectively use and have a massive potential for something to go wrong. Both the mortar and the tank cost req over 150 points to be outfitted, with the former requiring a cohesive SL and command network and the latter an entire squad to support it. Meanwhile, CAS and OBs rarely hit xenos because they see the beacon/laser and scatter and have long cooldowns. Even with all of these support elements in play, I'm not sure if req has the points to supply ammo or replacement parts to adequately support a marine push. And that's assuming they're all working effectively, OBs, tanks, CAS, and mortars have operation-ending FF capability and all it takes is one bald marine to cause it. I understand that my mindset would need to be changed in order to support this new xeno meta, but it seems like I'm looking at an unfinished puzzle here and missing a few pieces.

However, I would like to reiterate that I don't think we can't make any judgement calls until the dust settles in a week or two after balance passes. I also have to wonder if these xeno speedruns aren't caused by overpowered mechanics, but by the high xeno pop. 35-50 xenos on first bioscan is extremely difficult for marines to combat, and double pop helps xenos a lot more than it does marines. It'll be interesting to see how this situation resolves itself and how the meta will change, if it changes.

[Heckenshutze]

To build on this idea:
The hivelord would vomit the healing material onto the wound, which would take a few minutes to fully regenerate the limb. The xeno can walk around while it does its magic, but obviously missing a limb means limited functionality.
The delimbing mechanic:

• Makes hivelords important
• Encourages wounded xenos to wait inside and guard the hive while they heal, which solves the issue of "no one wants to watch the nested hosts because fighting is more fun". The wounded coming in and out to heal in the hive would cycle on defense duty, greatly helping out sentinels dedicated to nest defense.
• makes suppressing xenos a viable tactic.
• Allows marines to temporarily disable an alien, the same way an alien can disable a human by breaking a bone or something similar

Gitlab

[adrenalinetooth]

Gitlab

I feel like something similar has been suggested and turned down before, which leads me to think that this suggestion will do terribly, but here you are.

[kroack]

To build on this idea:
The hivelord would vomit the healing material onto the wound, which would take a few minutes to fully regenerate the limb. The xeno can walk around while it does its magic, but obviously missing a limb means limited functionality.
The delimbing mechanic:

• Makes hivelords important
• Encourages wounded xenos to wait inside and guard the hive while they heal, which solves the issue of "no one wants to watch the nested hosts because fighting is more fun". The wounded coming in and out to heal in the hive would cycle on defense duty, greatly helping out sentinels dedicated to nest defense.
• makes suppressing xenos a viable tactic.
• Allows marines to temporarily disable an alien, the same way an alien can disable a human by breaking a bone or something similar

I'd like to see a few test rounds with this idea, actually. I'd suggest that while hivelord regenerative material works super fast, queens and drones could also vomit heals, albeit they work at a much slower rate.

[OatzAndHoes]

...

It's been slowly slipping into less skilled territory with each update and the increase in player pop. It really wasn't always like this. It's a big reason why I switched from a marine main to a xeno main over the past year or so. The Med update made me leave for several months to cool off. This new xeno update is making me think of doing it again to be honest. The defenders and warriors are slow moving bullet sponges that don't require much skill when compared to the hunters of old.

[Karmac]

im still never playing xenos

marine all the way hoo hah

[xXen0zS1ay3rXx]

As above I am a marine only player and really enjoying the changes.

It is actually a fight now, not just roflstommping the poor unfortunate people who got xeno'd

[Retrokinesis]

To build on this idea:
The hivelord would vomit the healing material onto the wound, which would take a few minutes to fully regenerate the limb. The xeno can walk around while it does its magic, but obviously missing a limb means limited functionality.
The delimbing mechanic:

• Makes hivelords important
• Encourages wounded xenos to wait inside and guard the hive while they heal, which solves the issue of "no one wants to watch the nested hosts because fighting is more fun". The wounded coming in and out to heal in the hive would cycle on defense duty, greatly helping out sentinels dedicated to nest defense.
• makes suppressing xenos a viable tactic.
• Allows marines to temporarily disable an alien, the same way an alien can disable a human by breaking a bone or something similar

There would need to be another way for them to regenerate before the hivelords come out or if they all die, but otherwise I think this could be a really interesting change. And I say that as the one crazy person who enjoys sitting in the hive and guarding the hosts/queen all round the few times I go xeno.

That said, I've basically given up on non-shipside roles since the update. I'll go back to them once balance changes happen, but it's kind of problematic even playing shipside when the hijack comes so quickly. And most rounds having no survivors that make it to the Almayer kind of kills a lot of CL/MP RP.

[spookydonut]

There's still one more xeno to be added per the chart (spoilers its the corroder), we've already got some balancing tweaks ready to go once that's in.

[Karmac]

OH YUHHHHHHH