Human vs human and the Geneva Convention

[ThePiachu]

Hey, when we're having human vs human rounds, could we remind both sides about the Geneva Convention and at least apply it to the medical staff? As in - doctors should treat combatants from both sides, and neither of the sides should be killing medical staff (at least provided they are not armed and comply)? The round we just had had some pretty good UPP in that regard, or at least I managed to weasel my way out of getting shot. But I had someone threaten to kill my Researcher mid-surgery, and I remember another round a few weeks ago where the UPP just stormed through medbay and killed everyone.

So, could we at least make that the one rule for UPP to follow, since it's already a rule in the Marine Law?

[Sulaboy]

Need something about randomly decapitating enemy combatants. I've seen it happen a lot just so they can't be revived. Also I'm sure how much of the Geneva convention applies in the year 2186, but it would make sense to have ingame.

[Steelpoint]

I've consistently seen people, on both sides but more so Marines, go out of their way to decapitate dead enemy combatants after the fact to the point of stupidity. It is quite excessive.

Some kind of fluff 'rules of engagement' would be nice to see, even if it's more a guideline than a strict rule.

[taketheshot56]

Did not expect the researcher to actually give me an arm when the marines showed up, expected to be gunned down while under anesthetic.

[Jeser]

Considering, that marines equipped with flamers and explosive rounds, we can say, that Geneva Convetion goes straight out of the window.

Decapitating combatants in HvsH rounds are bad, tho, that's true.

[Youbar]

Considering, that marines equipped with flamers and explosive rounds, we can say, that Geneva Convetion goes straight out of the window.

Decapitating combatants in HvsH rounds are bad, tho, that's true.

The Geneva Convention is actually four conventions and three protocols. Currently, the US has signed the four conventions, as has every other country in the world, but hasn't signed the protocol relating to the use of napalm. The Geneva Conventions still apply to the marines.

[spookydonut]

It's 2186, conventions like that may apply to governments on earth, but what makes you think it would apply either to corporations or not on earth?

The decapping is really fucking stupid though, might mechanically restrict that.

[ThesoldierLLJK]

According to the Wiki:

Standing Orders
Your squad has been dispatched to take control of the USS Almayer by breaching in to their Command Information Center and eliminating all personnel on board the ship. To talk in your native language, include ":3" (For speaking over comms in native language use, ":h.3") when typing your messages or response. In addition to such you may call for reinforcements from their communications console when you have secured the CIC.


Glory to the UPP. And good luck.


Everything the Wiki says for UPP the goal is to eliminate Everyone on the Almayer.

[ThePiachu]

Did not expect the researcher to actually give me an arm when the marines showed up, expected to be gunned down while under anesthetic.

For a moment I was considering leaving you under the anaesthetic because people were yelling at me to go, but it somehow felt more right to at least remove a mask from you so you'd wake up soon. Was also thinking about treating my original patient first, but they had a lot of work that had to be done and a limb surgery is pretty quick.

And hey, you didn't gun my patient down, so why should I gun you down?

[Cry of Wolves]

Geneva has long since been abandoned once the first colony conflict has happened. We have flame throwers, radioactive bullets, nukes, mines, automated turrets, and much much more at our disposal to effectively eradictate threats to the USCM.

Geneva is no longer an issue when in space. War crimes that you see on the server is just a daily occurrence.

However decapitating dead bodies is very unprofessional. CLF are the only ones who should do that.

[Wesmas]

What about a code of military conduct? Marines who deface the dead, or kill non threatening hostile team members are then in breach of conduct and sentence to whatever. Or just make it so marine law covers the worst of the behavious.

[Cry of Wolves]

It already does. It's just no one knows how to apply marine law these days.

[Royal Griffon]

Ahem
I will make a good quote from an admeme of how marines react to the "Geneva Convention"
Warcrimes? What's that? Can I eat it?"

[RedsPro]

If theres no survivors theirs no one to report it. Blue Flame the commies

[Vispain]

In the grim darkness of the future, there is only war.

On another note, you can prevent war crimes or order some things to not occur to those marines under you but at the end of the day its all about how the MPs act towards it and how the officers/SLs do. I'll put it this way. If the SL distributes cuffs and mentions taking prisoners I'm sure a higher rate of POWs (or whatever you want to call 'em) will occur. Actual usage of the hold at gunpoint intent helps as well. Sometimes if you get a CLF surrendering well...you might as well take him prisoner. Its more fun then just blasting the defenseless guy imo.

Order 'em to the ground, cuff, keep em grabbed and bring to the Almayer and release them to a MP. Its quite simple.

[Nantei]

Yeah, stuff like this can be pretty ridiculous. I would like it if rules of engagement were enforced more in HVH rounds, it would make it far more interesting with more roleplay opportunities. Of special interest is how so many combatants will execute people who surrender on the spot, kill doctors, behead each other, etc. It's pretty damn low rp to so callously kill people, and it makes HVH rounds disappointing because ideally they should be far higher in roleplay opportunity.
It's pretty especially grievious when marines do it, and I tend to chew them out for it. If you capture a UPP/CLF/Whatever, the first step should be to try and revive them. Even ignoring that it's another person, they could have valuable intel, and treating prisoners of war well has been shown to gain invaluable resources as was seen in WW2.

[ThePiachu]

So how about something like this:

----

Rules of Engagement for Human vs Human rounds

These rules are here to make the HvH rounds more fun to play, and encourage better roleplay. Following these rules, on both sides of the conflict, should ensure the players have more fun while playing the game and have a chance to participate in the round as long as possible.

1) Avoid harm to civilians at all cost. In this scope it means CMO, doctors, researchers, survivors and the CL. They should be given an opportunity to surrender and should be treated as POW. If they attack or are clearly armed, they lose their protection status.

2) Treat both sides of the conflict. If able, medics and doctors should treat the wounded soldiers from the opposing side. They should be given at least the critical care to keep them alive. If able, they should receive full medical care. Don't (intentionally) OD enemy combatants, don't amputate their limbs, don't euthanize them.

3) Don't keep POWs sedated indefinitely, unless they pose a threat. This is more for the "game fun" - don't keep people on internals indefinitely so they wouldn't cause trouble, unless you have so many POWs in medbay at the same time that MPs can't handle them. At most, keep them sedated until an MP comes along to take them away into brig.

4) Don't kill captured POWs or patients. Anyone that has been captured should not be later killed unless they try to break out. The same goes for anyone undergoing surgery - you're not allowed to kill anyone while they are receiving medical treatment in form of a surgery.

5) Don't use chemical warfare that causes permanent damage that can't be treated by a Medic, whether physical or mental. This means no Mindbreaker Smoke grenades, no Hyperzine OD Smoke grenades, etc. Traditional grenades (incendiary, frag, explosive, smoke, teargas, flashbang) are still allowed. Admins may grant exceptions to this rule on a case-by-case basis, such as in a zombie round.

6) No intentionally gibbing or damaging corpses beyond revival. Don't go beheading your prisoners or downed enemies. Just move on and let them die or be saved.

[Nantei]

That gets my +1. Seems reasonable.

[ThesoldierLLJK]

I honestly think there shouldn't be rules except for beheading dead bodies as that's meta/powergaming.

It should be the choice if the UPP or CLF want to RP capturing doctors/techs/etc... or just kill everyone.

[Nantei]

I mean, they don't RP it is the problem, so it makes HVH way lower RP than it should be. Maybe that's just a difference of opinion, but what excites me about HvH is the gray area and roleplay possibilities, and unga dunga kill capitalist doctor is stupid.

[Youbar]

We have flame throwers, radioactive bullets, nukes, mines, automated turrets, and much much more at our disposal to effectively eradictate threats to the USCM.

Again, this is not a part of the Geneva Conventions. This qualifies as Protocol 1of the Geneva Conventions, Article 85, 'weapons that cause superfluous injury or unnecessary suffering'. The United States of America has not signed this protocol. The Geneva Conventions (not the protocols) still apply, and for reference, even a country as insane as North Korea has agreed to them due to the fact it gets rid of undue suffering on both sides. There's no reason for them not to apply in-game, space or not.

[Skimmy2]

We know that "some International Laws" exist because Medics wear the Red Cross.

Ultimately things get pretty complicated when you try to apply these things on officially, a peace keeping/humanitarian mission to a colony.
The distinction of CLF or Survivor gets blurry if you simply say "civilian/citizen" and any UPP would be violating Colonial Space. Likewise its debatable if a Civilan onboard of a military vessel would have many protections, especially if you take into account Total War and how they are directly assiting in the warfront. (Fun fact, Germany and the US had this same debate in ww1 due to Germany sinking UK ships that "might" have Muricans onboard.)

We've had long debates over who marine law applies to and whether a POW is treated with Prisoner Rights or not and with any luck, I look forward to if anything comes about it.

[Ttly]

CLFs are also terrorists rather than a nation, doesn't that validate doing whatever you want on them?

[ThePiachu]

The original HvH round that sparked the debate in case anyone is interested - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJs8FPW5JpE

[Skimmy2]

CLFs are also terrorists rather than a nation, doesn't that validate doing whatever you want on them?

If you're the Glorious Murican Master Race, then yes!

If you care about crimes against humanity, then eh?