Rahl’s Million Dollar Question - Marine Law

[Symbiosis]

We’ve all encountered over the last several months soft griefing MP’s and griefing MP’s.

We’ve had Mods and Admins attempt to defend one of their own whom used pajamas as the crux to lead a round into chaos.



^ Is this the CM we want as a community? Some of the best fun is CM is when it’s played as a game. This is just... sad.


What was initially supposed to be an arm of the Mods/Admins has slowly devolved into a mess that has required more rule adjustments and law rewriting than anything else I can personally remember as a player. Moderators and Admins have publically stated they don’t want to be involved with the MP AHelps due to the shit storm they become.

Last night Rahl asked the playerbase to come up with some solutions. It’s a more difficult question that it appears. MP’s don’t really serve a large purpose any longer due to mutiny changes - and the fact there really hasn’t been a “mutiny” problem in some time. Developers have weeded out powergamey things that gave MP’s a legitimate target with the Medics. Most charges are a result of hooliganism, uniform issues, or unsecured weaponry.

MP’s that “main” MP will often work to stack charges and get their Lawboners from ending a players round for the slightest disrespect or action... and recently Marine Law has seen many protections added preventing an MP from being subjected to “unenjoyable” Orders that are a part of military life regardless of rank.

So, we’ve outlined a few problems with MP’s (Borderline grief, Admin protections that whitelisted roles don’t have, the fact they’re untouchable and can twist Marine Law into a pretzel to explain their way out of any responsibility) let’s get into solutions.


1. Max timers go. Don’t allow MP’s the chance to choose when to be assholes. Most round times are 1.5-2.0 hours, 30 mins is briefing. If you’re taking someone out of the round for half of it there should be some good reasoning.

2. MP’s are part of the crew and of SOUND mind. We’re in an active MILITARY COMBAT OPERATION. Crimes below assault with a deadly weapon should resort to helping the operation and ensuring fellow Marines are USEFUL. Not finding ways to keep someone in a cell for hurting your feelings.

3. Remove the part in Marine Law where MP’s and CMP’s aren’t beholden to orders outside of the scope of Marine Law. The protections they have already are lengthy, everyone gets shit duties and I shouldn’t need to make a player report to get someone CMP banned for back talking (which is a crime - and job ban worthy) .

4. Consider adding crewside antag positions. CLF/UPP agents, etc. Goals would be tied to theft of military secrets, stealing samples of Xenos, etc. Nothing that would antag the crew and result in gunfire, but would give the MP’s something to DO.

1, 2, and 3 will cut down on the soft griefing, ahelps, and headaches the staff AND player base deal with. 4 is just a way to give the MP’s something to do.

[TehSpoderman]

Number 4 is DEFINITELY something I can agree with. GIVE MPs SOMETHING TO DO! I believe that the root of the soft griefing problem. On other servers, you don't really see Security soft grief (at least on the ones I played) because they are too busy making sure they find the antag and keep the station from falling apart. On CM, you don't have shipside antags. The only thing that MPs can do is wait for shit to happen. That is boring as fuck. That's gonna lead to them finding some way to entertain themselves AKA finding a way to arrest people for the most minor shit (such as arresting people because they think that a CO is committing a crime because they are wearing pajamas).

[Jeser]

Yeah, one of the problems with MPs is locking up for max sentence, smartgunner or Spec for insubordination, for example, effectively removing player, who can affect round greatly, for half an hour. Sometimes, even more. Of course, serious punishments shouldn't be ignored, but too many time it looks like undermining unit's combat effectiveness.

You won't lock up the only rocket launcher specialist for insubordination in the middle of OP.

[Casany]

Just, real quickly. I also think that during a Delta Alert where the DS has crashed into the Almayer, MPs should not be arresting people. Its a little thing but so many times (Not just this one recent case) I've seen MPs arresting people in CIC defenses or SD defenses, its fucking insane. And then they both end up dying anyway, but the arrested guy usually doesn't even get a chance to defend himself. Just as well, MPs have a problem with leaving prisoners behind in the brig when the ship crashes and just letting them die.

[spookydonut]

Don't make absolute statements, wouldn't you like an MP to arrest someone who keeps bumping the only engineer trying to build barricades instead of you shooting them and getting bwoinked for griefing?

[Vampmare]

Don't make absolute statements, wouldn't you like an MP to arrest someone who keeps bumping the only engineer trying to build barricades instead of you shooting them and getting bwoinked for griefing?

I have never seen a MP arrest someone in a situation like that, but I have seen someone getting BE'd for it.

That aside, I don't think we should remove the MPs general power, they're there to handle to lowRP or soft grief. Removing them will up the BE rates by 10x or so I foresee. Let's not forget that that "pajamas" situation actually started from being lowRP in an expected highRP role, where the MPs decided to step in a correct it. Of course that sent the round spiralling, as you can't really remove important people from a mission and expect a win. I would blame both the CMP and Commander in this situation.

I support the idea of adding roles that give MPs something to do, instead of just survivors. Removing some of the CMPs absolute power in law matters might also help lighten the load of admins, if there's a CMP who's being a shitler.

It's a tough situation and most if not all reports stem from a MP situation going out of hand, so I can hope we can fix it.

[spookydonut]

"MPs shouldn't arrest for minor stuff" is just stupid, they're part of the system to punish low rp behaviour like running around naked, smashing light bulbs, stealing things, etc. We're trying to move towards more IC enforcement and less OOC enforcement remember?

That said, there are a lot of MP players that either need to stop trying to poorly imitate Jack Knight and/or stop playing MP.

[NoahKirchner]

Don't make absolute statements, wouldn't you like an MP to arrest someone who keeps bumping the only engineer trying to build barricades instead of you shooting them and getting bwoinked for griefing?

No, that's ridiculous and there are other ways to deal with it than arresting him or killing him. Also absolute statements are the basis of discussion, if you account for every single possible variable instead of tackling the generalized issue you get nowhere, arguing in universalities is a fruitless endeavor.

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I certainly like the list that you've come up with so far, though I do think that #4. could use some more refinement (not that it's a bad idea, just so that it doesn't devolve into gunfire, it's a good idea.)

It should be primarily UPP because CLF are generally overtly hostile while the UPP and UA aren't explicitly at war. I also think it'd be nice to put it behind a proper timelock, like some servers have for their jobs. Normally I would be adverse to doing this for a job, but with this being a position that people coming from other servers might take as a chance to go weapons loud and gun down the MPs I think it's important that they have time to actually get involved in the community first, which is a big part of rule comprehension (just reading the rules isn't enough to actually properly understand their enforcement, precedent, etc).

In the message you get whenever you roll it, it should be explicitly clear that you were told by your superiors at the UPP to NOT KILL ANYBODY, period full stop. It makes sense, too, what with the not wanting to spark a war over it thing. Another neat thing that would make this a lot more interesting to play as would be a traitor uplink that replaces the buck standard weapons of mass destruction with useful tools that help you break into places, steal things more effectively, etc.

Some ideas:
Escape pod override, allows the traitor to steal an escape pod and end their round (Maybe allow them to respawn if they want so they have incentive to escape pod the fuck outta there?)

The door hacking tool that nobody uses on other servers that requires you to stand at the door for 15 seconds and then you can open the last 8 doors that you hacked. A nice alternative to the emag.

Compound explosive for breaching into a wall

Handcuffs

Sedative in a syringe gun of some sort, for incapacitating (Should also say when they wake up that they don't remember anything from like 5 minutes beforehand) (Should have very limited ammo so you can't just go loud with it)

Some kinda stealth tech so you can spoop your way around

With the relaxation of the ID rules, maybe an operative ID card that allows you to scan access from other ID cards to copy their access, meaning that you can give the ID back and thus not have to steal it.

Cyanide tooth implant (For that classic spyboy (tm) feel.

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It would also be neat to make their uplink able to send messages to UPP High Command so that they can ICly talk to them.

[Symbiosis]

"MPs shouldn't arrest for minor stuff" is just stupid, they're part of the system to punish low rp behaviour like running around naked, smashing light bulbs, stealing things, etc. We're trying to move towards more IC enforcement and less OOC enforcement remember?

That said, there are a lot of MP players that either need to stop trying to poorly imitate Jack Knight and/or stop playing MP.

Attempting to arrest someone as Xenos are hurtling towards the ship is more lowRP than someone wearing pajamas to briefing. One is a meme, the other literally would result in an MP getting a bullet to the back of the head. The LOWRP of MPs has become such an issue that admins and mods are publicly stating they don’t want to deal with the ahelps.

I’m not advocating large changes to Marine Law, just removing their ability to give “max charges” and being a dick over something simple as a shoving match in the RO line (typical Marine/Soldier behavior). The former removes the power boner aspect a lot of bad MPs use and the latter is why general rules day is so popular.

NJP’s should be the primary way of dealing with bad behavior as that is generally how things are handled in the military and also gives the MP something to do... following the Marine around is patrolling and ensuring they’re doing the work.

The final issue is Marine Law is written in a way that removes any accountability IC for the CMP. It’s all an IC issue, they’re unable to be ordered around in any way they view as an NJP, yet even the slightest rule break will result in a job ban. Do we really want to have player reports for Joe Schmoe who back talked his CO and get him a job ban? The time and investigation involvement seems like a poor use of stretched resources.

[spookydonut]

Attempting to arrest someone as Xenos are hurtling towards the ship is more lowRP than someone wearing pajamas to briefing. One is a meme, the other literally would result in an MP getting a bullet to the back of the head. The LOWRP of MPs has become such an issue that admins and mods are publicly stating they don’t want to deal with the ahelps.

I'm talking about MPs arresting/neutralizing marines actively working against the common interest of the group, especially in last stand defenses.

[Dauntasa]

Add a POW job. Have the brig start containing a couple of UPP soldiers or CLF members captured on a previous operation, and then redesign the brig to be a lot easier to escape from. Now the MPs have something to do without harassing marines, and if someone wants to play an antag they get a chance to, but one that starts out known and has very limited resources to work with.

[ThesoldierLLJK]

MP is a RP role, and I think it's best to let them handle the IC stuff instead of having to rely on moderators for minor things.
That being said, if someone goes beyond what a MP/CMP should do, that's the purpose of having an admin team to make determinations by what was done.

IE: MP's should use common sense and not try to arrest someone for a minor violation during a Delta alert with ship invasion.

[Blade2000Br]

Delta level arrests are iffy, some do, others don't. Personally, I learned that doing arrests while on delta is not viable unless is a major crime. But that doesn't mean I will just release everyone on brig. I will try to evac then, at least that's what I always do on a DS breach.

Now, I will tackle on the "pajama" issue: The CO shouldn't have done it. Period. It's extremely lowrp to do briefing on Pajamas, if you did that on my army the superior officer would scould ya to hell and forth and send you to prison for two weeks to serve food for the soldiers.
So no matter what you justify, the CMP was right in arrest the CO. Would I have give him a warning? Sure. Would I arrest the CO if he didn't listen? A-BSO-LU-TELY. If a lowly marine can be brigged for improper uniform, the CO can too. There's no such thing as "Too important". The XO exist for this kind of situations.

I think alot of people really like to skirt marine law and push it to see where they can reach. And when it finally bites then in the back, they complain.
Seriously, Just don't break marine law. It's not hard shut up your mouth and curse at your superior on the planet off from the radio. It's not hard to not break light bulbs or windows on the ship.

The Majority of times, MPs get shit on for doing their job, it's annoying. Sure, there are some cases of extremes from CMPs/MPs players, but it's not as often as people make it out to be.

[Sir Lordington]

We’ve all encountered over the last several months soft griefing MP’s and griefing MP’s.

We’ve had Mods and Admins attempt to defend one of their own whom used pajamas as the crux to lead a round into chaos.



^ Is this the CM we want as a community? Some of the best fun is CM is when it’s played as a game. This is just... sad.

The CO led the round into chaos by continously escalating and breaking more and more laws after she got arrested the first time. The CO is as much to blame if not more as the CMP.

What was initially supposed to be an arm of the Mods/Admins has slowly devolved into a mess that has required more rule adjustments and law rewriting than anything else I can personally remember as a player. Moderators and Admins have publically stated they don’t want to be involved with the MP AHelps due to the shit storm they become.

Last night Rahl asked the playerbase to come up with some solutions. It’s a more difficult question that it appears. MP’s don’t really serve a large purpose any longer due to mutiny changes - and the fact there really hasn’t been a “mutiny” problem in some time. Developers have weeded out powergamey things that gave MP’s a legitimate target with the Medics. Most charges are a result of hooliganism, uniform issues, or unsecured weaponry.

MP’s that “main” MP will often work to stack charges and get their Lawboners from ending a players round for the slightest disrespect or action... and recently Marine Law has seen many protections added preventing an MP from being subjected to “unenjoyable” Orders that are a part of military life regardless of rank.

Partially the fault of MPs, partially the fault of people who do everything in their power to dick the MPs over.

I absolutely disagree, they are an integral part of ensuring shipside doesn't evolve into a lowRP shitfest.

You can't stack charges anymore as it's one charge per event. If you commit multiple crimes in multiple events, of course you're going to get charged for them as well.

So, we’ve outlined a few problems with MP’s (Borderline grief, Admin protections that whitelisted roles don’t have, the fact they’re untouchable and can twist Marine Law into a pretzel to explain their way out of any responsibility) let’s get into solutions.


1. Max timers go. Don’t allow MP’s the chance to choose when to be assholes. Most round times are 1.5-2.0 hours, 30 mins is briefing. If you’re taking someone out of the round for half of it there should be some good reasoning.

2. MP’s are part of the crew and of SOUND mind. We’re in an active MILITARY COMBAT OPERATION. Crimes below assault with a deadly weapon should resort to helping the operation and ensuring fellow Marines are USEFUL. Not finding ways to keep someone in a cell for hurting your feelings.

3. Remove the part in Marine Law where MP’s and CMP’s aren’t beholden to orders outside of the scope of Marine Law. The protections they have already are lengthy, everyone gets shit duties and I shouldn’t need to make a player report to get someone CMP banned for back talking (which is a crime - and job ban worthy) .

4. Consider adding crewside antag positions. CLF/UPP agents, etc. Goals would be tied to theft of military secrets, stealing samples of Xenos, etc. Nothing that would antag the crew and result in gunfire, but would give the MP’s something to DO.

1, 2, and 3 will cut down on the soft griefing, ahelps, and headaches the staff AND player base deal with. 4 is just a way to give the MP’s something to do.

1. There's this myth that MPs apply max time for everything. I've been looking at MPs ever since the Marine Law rewrite and haven't seen this problem pop up.

2. What Spooky said. Also, you don't get to get away with breaking the law because "muh importance to the op". Nobody is too important to be removed, and the XO is there if the CO gets arrested.

3. This doesn't exist, it applies to everyone, not just MPs. You're not meant to be able to apply NJPs whenever you want by rules-lawyering it as being an order.

4. Maybe, would require lenghty discussion.

Arresting people during a Delta alert with xenos right outside the door is a bad move and shouldn't be done, but apparently common sense needs to be written down. The intent of the rework was to condense and make MArine Law a lighter read, but then you have people arguing that pajamas are uniform, circumventing the NJP system and making arrests in the frontline or with xenos hurtling towards the ship.

Some MPs are dicks. Some people are dicks to MPs. The problem isn't just on one side, so maybe start blaming both the people who apply the law wrongly and the people who go out of their way to break the law and cause trouble. This is why we can't have nice things.

[Martzin]

I wholly agree with this, just got to make sure the devs look at it with an open mind. Give MPs shit to do because rounds are long and only minor things happen every so often, if they even happen at all. Either way #4 should be added just to make the game funner.

[Gnorse]

I've seen plenty of MPs get punched to death, some even SHOT, when they tried to arrest marines during a boarding.
people are trying to imitate Jack Knight and failing miserably. They just look like powertripping soft-griefers.

[Symbiosis]

The CO led the round into chaos by continously escalating and breaking more and more laws after she got arrested the first time. The CO is as much to blame if not more as the CMP.


1. There's this myth that MPs apply max time for everything. I've been looking at MPs ever since the Marine Law rewrite and haven't seen this problem pop up.

2. What Spooky said. Also, you don't get to get away with breaking the law because "muh importance to the op". Nobody is too important to be removed, and the XO is there if the CO gets arrested.

3. This doesn't exist, it applies to everyone, not just MPs. You're not meant to be able to apply NJPs whenever you want by rules-lawyering it as being an order.

4. Maybe, would require lenghty discussion.

Arresting people during a Delta alert with xenos right outside the door is a bad move and shouldn't be done, but apparently common sense needs to be written down. The intent of the rework was to condense and make MArine Law a lighter read, but then you have people arguing that pajamas are uniform, circumventing the NJP system and making arrests in the frontline or with xenos hurtling towards the ship.

Some MPs are dicks. Some people are dicks to MPs. The problem isn't just on one side, so maybe start blaming both the people who apply the law wrongly and the people who go out of their way to break the law and cause trouble. This is why we can't have nice things.

Looking more and more like the CMP was being a cheeky bastard and making up charges - alongside the improper imprisonment, etc. Frankly if making a player report is the only way to get CMP's/MP's job banned I'm fine with doing it. Let's wait for the logs and the final judgement to determine who was more "at fault" - (here's a hint, Awan has a history of this and it's not the good kind)...

1. MP's don't always apply max time. But limiting their ability to be an asshole whenever they want is good. Set a time and stick with it. That way they can't subjectively be assholes in this way.

2. I don't think breaking the law is cool as a Marine. For all the times I play I rarely if ever am brigged. I'm also well versed in Marine Law, so I know how to bend the pretzel when I need to.

3. I'm suggesting a change that NJP's be the primary course of action for crimes that aren't assault with a deadly weapon, please read the first post. In the military, people fight often, do goofy shit, and they aren't thrown in a cell. They're given NJP's or shitty duties.

4. I'm happy to provide insight on this discussion if needed. I can think of some ways that this can be implemented WITHOUT causing round chaos but also providing more RP.

[Nantei]

I agree with all of these. MP's currently are just soft grief roles for a lot of people, and that's obviously a problem. MP's should be far more lenient than they are now, and variable arrest timers should go, while the times should overall be reduced. There should also be notes in marine law for removing critical members of an operation for petty crimes. So if tehre's only one medic and you brig them, that becomes an actual OOC problem, instead of an IC one. This cripples the operation and hurts the entire squad. You might say don't break the law, but it's incredibly easy to do, even accidentally, and if an MP wants to arrest you, it's very easy for them to find an excuse.

[NethIafins]

Right now with these suggestions I don't see how MPs can "enforce" MRP (proper uniform, not swinging your weapon like a..., Not shoveling each other at every possible occasion, not trying to break RO window just for funsies) without being a pricky bastards that "validhunt" you. Giving them some other stuff to do (like traitors) won't solve this issue.

Normally (in RL armies) if you do that, you are considered a shame to your squad of baldies and you have pretty rough time next day you go to sleep or have a shower. Here - basically marines enjoy every chance to have an extra unga at other people's expense. Would you shove a higher ranked soldier in your squad for telling you what to do? No. But this shit happens all the time in game.

We do see that our path to the future is minimal OOC enforcement, so what do we do?

Allow SLs to police their own squad without fear of getting their ass mutineed?
Force MPs to give purely NJPs for minor offences during critical mission times?
Notes system?

I do not know, however what I know is that I NEVER got arrested by MPs as a marine. Not even once. Is the game boring for me? Fuck no. Do I ever twist marine law into a pretzel to get off my time? Fuck no.

What I see is mostly bored or bigger than life players trying to have a different experience in game than is in "regular flow" of getting prepped then briefed then deployed the killed.

What I'm saying is, I'm not shocked that MPs are cutting all this stuff short. And when your interesting ideas get wrecked, of course you will get angry at MP in question.

Maybe especially if they are from staff

All this notion that "MPs are soft griefers" doesn't take into account that if you behave like proper marine, without any shenanigans or experiments (while being on the ship) you have ZERO chance of getting brigged without MP getting at least a severe warning (or command plain ordering them to)

I do understand that this game is primarily madr for shenanigans and experiments, but those should be done with new stuff in game and not by getting coutt marshalled on your first deploy after 5 years of training for punching a senior officer because he denied you your unga

[Nantei]

I've seen marines brigged for pretty petty stuff that really does not merit MP attention. I have never been targeted myself, but I know people who have.

Traitors would not fix validhunting, but it would at least give reasonable MP's something else to do, and overall I think would be a nice addition for shipside roles, as they can often lack variety.

[Casany]

I've seen marines brigged for pretty petty stuff that really does not merit MP attention. I have never been targeted myself, but I know people who have.

Traitors would not fix validhunting, but it would at least give reasonable MP's something else to do, and overall I think would be a nice addition for shipside roles, as they can often lack variety.

MPs go out of their way to brig people for the smallest reason. I was once almost brigged, along with two other marines (we were all three directly out of cryo, hadn’t even made it to our prep rooms) for me hitting a window with a satchel. I hit it because the doors were stuck and I was getting an MTs attention. We were almost brigged for vandalism until the CMP came and actually forcefully took us away from the MPs. That CMP was a godsend, but if it had been someone like Awan we woulda all gone away for 30 minutes before we even got to our fucking prep rooms. It’s insane. They need something to filter these shitlers who play to ruin rounds.

[spookydonut]

Shipside traitor roles is a distraction from the topic at hand and unlikely to be added.

[NoahKirchner]

Shipside traitor roles is a distraction from the topic at hand and unlikely to be added.

I would argue it would fix the topic at hand to give the MPs something to do aside from enforce every single minor marine law breakage like they are a soulless robot and would instead give them a reason to exist, which right now they don't have.

Having MPs as a way to reduce load on the mod/admins is great and all but it cannot be the only function of a role because then it requires rule breakers to remain fun without becoming rulebreakers themselves, this would give them something to do.

[roushguy]

I was once brigged for pushing another marine over and saying the word, "Bullied." Clearly, this is a joke, in-character. The MP wordlessly tasered me, proceeded to lock me up without telling me why I was under arrest, left me bucklecuffed to the bed, but wait, it gets worse. They give me a thirty-minute timer. I throw a fit, the CMP puts me in perma, and then later comes in and point-blanks me repeatedly with a buck-loaded tac shotty. Following this, I get admin-healed and then, STILL NOT DONE. The same guy who arrested me proceeds to drag me around the Almayer as it's boarded, STILL CUFFED, and attempts to cuff the marine that tried to uncuff me. I am eventually mauled by aliens without ever being more than one square away from the MP. From start to finish, this was about an hour-long travesty. At no point after my initial arrest, maybe five minutes in, did I get to do... anything.

In summation, I'd like to see MPs removed entirely, and instead let SLs and commanding officers (of any variety: SOs, XOs, COs) dispense justice as needed.

On the topic of POWs, maybe make that a survivor thing? Survivors who are sleeper agents, yaddayaddayadda.

[Dauntasa]

All this notion that "MPs are soft griefers" doesn't take into account that if you behave like proper marine, without any shenanigans or experiments (while being on the ship) you have ZERO chance of getting brigged without MP getting at least a severe warning (or command plain ordering them to)

This is the issue, I think. We have multiple player slots dedicated to the Security role on a server that is essentially Team Deathmatch+MRP. There's no incentive for anyone on board to break any major laws because everyone on board is on the marine side. With no antags on the ship, the MPs have nothing to do but look for petty violations and then harass people about them. On the rare occasions when an RP reason for someone on the ship to break a major law actually comes up, most of the time the CO just BEs them so that everyone can move on with the round, since wasting any time on legal procedures hurts the marine position on the ground. The MPs have nothing to do all round other than hassle people for violating very minor laws, and it makes other players hate them. Without giving them some sort of antag role to deal with, that's never going to change, because the vast majority of arrests they make do nothing but hurt the marines' chances. There was a round recently where they busted the RO, the only person in Req, for "threatening language" in the middle of an operation and so the marines were starving for supplies for half an hour. You can understand why the general sentiment towards this would be "Fuck MPs", and I really don't think there's anything to do about it beyond just giving them something else to do.