MPs have become antags?

[Retrokinesis]

You can't C4 tcomms A fair point. That said, even if this idea may fall flat in practice, there absolutely needs to be something that justifies the existence of the MPs aside from being diet moderators who enforce OOC rules from an IC perspective with zero accountability ICly. They need something, anything to do that justifies their existence aside from just yaga yeetin' on marines who litter.

Agreed. I'm just not really sure what it would be. I think the prisoners idea mentioned earlier has some merit, but it has a bunch of issues on its own: do they count as survivors or are they a different role, what if nobody signs up as one, what if you get prisoners but no MPs to watch them, how would you make it actually fun to be one, etc.

1. The marine winrate has actually jumped significantly recently.

2. You seem to think many players simply aren't very smart given these expectations about never fixing tcomms or power.

2. What makes you think that removing somebody from the round without permission wouldn't be covered by rule 2 by default?

1. True! Which is deliberate on the part of the new server administration and antagonists - much like events that only affect the marines - are going to kick it back the other way.

2. Oh, it's not that at all. There's a difference between fixing the tcomms APC after the dropship crash and fixing the entirety of comms after an antagonist deliberately screwed it up or destroyed it, especially since you're basically not allowed to touch comms normally. I don't even think comms or the SMES can be rebuilt or repaired from more extensive damage with parts currently available on the Almayer, unless staff spawns them in.

3. Because rule 2, much like rule 0, means whatever the staff member enforcing it at the time says it means. You'd have to have an entirely separate set of rules for antagonists much like whitelisted roles used to have, and the amount of attention staff would have to pay to them goes against the whole "less staff enforcement of rules" thing.

I did, mod said it was valid, then another mod later after the round said it wasn't. Either way I am pretty sure they would have gotten away with arresting me if they had gone through with it. They later valid'd me with a small remark against them, which made me miss the drop as SL. I am fairly certain that the only way I would have gotten anything done is with a player report, and let's be honest, reporting Jack Knight is historically a complete waste of fucking time. This is why I am really upset with how staff have been handling it. Granted, I know it wasn't the mod's fault for not doing anything, I am not mad at them. I am just mad at how so many staff members try and excuse stuff like this when the person is blatantly trying to ruin someone elses' rounds. The mod was even plainly aware he was trying to grief me, but knew they couldn't do anything about it.

That's a staff issue for sure, then, not anything to do with MPs themselves. That's not even an ambiguity in the new marine law; it's very clearly not a violation at all. I honestly think staff needs time to catch up on the new laws just like the rest of us do, since it's as new for them as it is for us. And I don't understand the concept of not making a player report because it probably won't do anything anyway, because it's certain not to do anything if you don't write it. People who act like dicks for fun (primarily MPs and COs in my experience) only get away with that kind of behavior because people (staff and players both) let them. I've seen incidents that have made me shocked nobody involved wrote-up a player report, since they were very clearly the wronged party.

[Crab_Spider]

Mmmmn...

Go on?

[davidofmk771]

3. Because rule 2, much like rule 0, means whatever the staff member enforcing it at the time says it means. You'd have to have an entirely separate set of rules for antagonists much like whitelisted roles used to have, and the amount of attention staff would have to pay to them goes against the whole "less staff enforcement of rules" thing.

Nobody is calling for a complete reduction of staff enforcement, just for things to be handled more by players than staff in certain situations. There is no problem with adding rules if an entirely new facet of gameplay is added.

[TexasTwoStep]

We have the arguments all the time:

Less Staff Enforcement, More Playerbase on Playerbase handling of Situations
More Staff Enforcement, Less Playerbase on Playerbase handling of Situations.
Heavy Roleplay V. Medium Roleplay V. Low-RP.

This is how it is: Every situation is different, there are some situations as MP that will warrant a full round stop sometimes (used to happen quite frequently if anyone jumped the gun and tried to arrest the CO without a high-command fax.) We've garnered and gained trust to give back to the MP Playerbase - and some of it has been abused. I'm against hurting everyone for one person's mistake, but obviously this isn't one person.

Staff has already begun to investigate the Brig everyround, something I don't mind doing and in doing so find multiple note-worthy actions. The question is: Is there too much responsibility for that rule, with too much accountability? If you break Marine Law yourself, you're breaking the rules....Marine law is something to be layered and interrupted, not something black and white as a rule-book so why do they two cross pathes so much?

Because they have the ability to ruin your round and when abused even if AdminHelped still takes time away from you and the round, which hurts.

I suggest you use the rest of this life-time of the thread to suggest fixes to the MP's, some have already suggested while others, (including me) have commented on the behavioral aspects of MP's and CO's.

Honor Guard anyone? (wink)

[Simo94]

people dont want less admin intervention in order to increase roleplay, its quite the opposite actually, they want to lowRP. There never was an admin intervention problem with HRP before, example is Bill Carson who edges or sometimes breaks a rule and admins let it pass because the roleplay was amazing, and so do players.

[Martzin]

people dont want less admin intervention in order to increase roleplay, its quite the opposite actually, they want to lowRP. There never was an admin intervention problem with HRP before, example is Bill Carson who edges or sometimes breaks a rule and admins let it pass because the roleplay was amazing, and so do players.

You got this whole thing misconstrued. Nobody wants less admin intervention so they can act like clowns from hippie station. Its so they can do their own thing without worrying about getting bwoinked or breaking some contrived rule. So people can let rounds play themselves out instead of being regulated by an admin. Its a whole lot more fun like this. Carson was just butt-buddies with the admins, who most of the time were regulating events like this or just letting shit slide because they like him. HRP doesn't come in to it.

[davidofmk771]

I mean, we shouldn't try to interpret everyone's intentions, i'm sure there are players with zero forum activity that would be happy to honk and fart on the commander with no consequences. I just don't think anyone in this thread is that.

Aside from that, I am interested in how staff feel about playing fax-based dramas out with us. Is it interesting, or more of a pain? Is there any pressure given that decisions made during rounds in regards to staff-faxes could have a determining effect on how rules are generally interpreted?

Generally I enjoy using faxes, but in some ways I see that people are getting upset about the semi-interventionism implied in their usage. I mean, only staff can fax from the perspective of HC, W-Y, and the Provost, so it feels as if they are hard OOC rulings and not ones coming from a limited IC perspective (and in some situations its seemed like that was exactly the case).

[Gray]

Just had a round as CMP where I was SMed by the admins about the Commander shooting his mateba off in CiC using the voice of ARES, one of my MPs got a similar message later on as well. While that doesn't really prove anything, it seems some staff lean towards CMP/CO arrest drama and what comes with. Granted the Commander did give me more reasons to actually arrest him a few minutes later, it was too late at that point and the Alamo was compromised. I decided to arrest the CO after the whole Alamo situation was solved but you know the rest of the story.(xenos won)

[solidfury7]

I think the addition of having the ability to overlook marine law for minor offences such as the PJ's and stuff has been a step in the right direction,

However I do stress that the whole "Fuck the MP movement is going go alienate certain good MPs and make them more "Us vs Them" which us a step in the wrong direction.

Its really, really easy to fall in that mindset, and its only going to make future conflicts grow in severity.

Its a tough cookie because we are going through some changes both in the game and oocly regarding things. This awkward periods usually leave the game in a better position in the long term.

[CABAL]

If shipside soft antags are such a big deal and a problem, then after dealing with Marine Law and other stuff, how you will deal with their boredom after first drop? I belive this is the main reason. Some players just have to have objective and try to acomplish it and MP in theory have to uphold marine law. Problem is that besides hitting windows with backpacks and things like that are what they can "punish" the most and I'm sure MP mains are just as horrible (joke) as Xeno mains, but Xenos have atleast purpose.

What is the biggest achivement for MP? Arrest the most important man (or woman) on the ship. Can't blame them that much, it's just boredom. Power, protection and nothing significant to do: Perfect description of MP role.

Nothing besides interaction with other players will "entertain" MP's for long. Xenos vs Marines, but MP is against who? Nobody. Doctors are against nobody too, but they have healing to do, they are starting to get things to do after first drop, but even if not, they can't really screw with other players in IC manners.

At the end I want to say: Shipside soft antags are mandatory.

[Nantei]

We have the arguments all the time:

Less Staff Enforcement, More Playerbase on Playerbase handling of Situations
More Staff Enforcement, Less Playerbase on Playerbase handling of Situations.
Heavy Roleplay V. Medium Roleplay V. Low-RP.

This is how it is: Every situation is different, there are some situations as MP that will warrant a full round stop sometimes (used to happen quite frequently if anyone jumped the gun and tried to arrest the CO without a high-command fax.) We've garnered and gained trust to give back to the MP Playerbase - and some of it has been abused. I'm against hurting everyone for one person's mistake, but obviously this isn't one person.

Staff has already begun to investigate the Brig everyround, something I don't mind doing and in doing so find multiple note-worthy actions. The question is: Is there too much responsibility for that rule, with too much accountability? If you break Marine Law yourself, you're breaking the rules....Marine law is something to be layered and interrupted, not something black and white as a rule-book so why do they two cross pathes so much?

Because they have the ability to ruin your round and when abused even if AdminHelped still takes time away from you and the round, which hurts.

I suggest you use the rest of this life-time of the thread to suggest fixes to the MP's, some have already suggested while others, (including me) have commented on the behavioral aspects of MP's and CO's.

Honor Guard anyone? (wink)

I don't have a ton to add here, but I first want to say this is an excellent post and I agree.

The main fix I would want to add would be letting CO's override the CMP unless the CMP has high command on his side. The CO should by default override the CMP, it's a whitelisted role. I don't care if it makes realistic sense, a whitelisted role like CO should override a non-whitelisted role like CMP, and I see zero issue with giving a whitelisted role more privileges since every mistake they make could cost them their whitelist. Let the commander pardon crimes and override arrests/laws, this will probably make things a hell of a lot smoother, and reduce the need for staff intervention. If the CMP wants to arrest or override the commander, they should have to go through HIgh Command first. The commander, realistically, has had quite a long and hard career to get where they are now, it should not be easy to arrest them.

Overall what I want is less people in the brig for less time. Petty crimes should be an after-op thing at most.

The other suggestion I would make is shipside antag or soft antag roles. Give good MP's something to do, anything to do. Yes, I know, it's been suggested before. I know it probably won't get included because the devs don't want traitors I am fairly certain. But god, give the MP's something to do during the round other than harass marines. A lot of shipside roles suffer from a lack of variety, so this helps most of them quite a bit. Even a soft antagonist who is trying to do various subtle things or cause minor problems would be a step in the right direction in my opinion.

[Blade2000Br]

The main fix I would want to add would be letting CO's override the CMP unless the CMP has high command on his side. The CO should by default override the CMP, it's a whitelisted role. I don't care if it makes realistic sense, a whitelisted role like CO should override a non-whitelisted role like CMP, and I see zero issue with giving a whitelisted role more privileges since every mistake they make could cost them their whitelist. Let the commander pardon crimes and override arrests/laws, this will probably make things a hell of a lot smoother, and reduce the need for staff intervention. If the CMP wants to arrest or override the commander, they should have to go through HIgh Command first. The commander, realistically, has had quite a long and hard career to get where they are now, it should not be easy to arrest them.

No, just no.

The MPs are not there to be glorified Marines that guard Dropships/ grounds without a FOB. They are there to uphold the law and make sure the marines are behaving, since we can't really count on Marines to behave because, well, this is SS13. I don't agree with COs overruling the CMP on matters of law, even less pardoning crimes. This is stupid.

In no military, if someone breaks the rules, he would be pardoned by the Commander because "Oh, you are a specialist so you are important". That's not how it works. If you want to have fun, you either don't break the law or break it while on the ground where no one can do anything about it. If we give the authority to the COs, they would just go in a pardoning spree, releasing everyone and overruling crimes, giving 0 shits about the procedure. I know because I already got that happening before with me, it's shitty that a CO wants to ignore the crimes of a guy for assault with deadly weapon, disrespect, assault, resisting arrest just because he's an SL/Spec.

And last, if COs aren't supposed to be brigged every time, then perhaps they shouldn't... you know... wear Pajamas while doing briefing? Perhaps? I already COed several times, still not even a single time the CMP or MPs messed with me. And they will never will because I don't try to skirt the law or some shit a Commander would never realistically do.

[FearTheBlackout]

I've always found "just don't do it" to be a flimsy argument in every regard. It hardly matters if something is the law or not; it can be wrong and it can be challenged. That doesn't mean people shouldn't be compliant with the punishment they receive as a result of challenging those laws, but it certainly doesn't mean "stand by and maintain the status quo".

On a less political note: It's seriously fucking stupid if you think someone needs to be arrested in a video game -- where everyone's enjoyment should be preserved to the greatest extent possible -- for wearing PJs. Just no.

[Symbiosis]

An MP/CMP arrested a PO for manslaughter because a Marine was on the landing pad.

That's the exact type of valid salad most people are worried about.

The CO should also be careful of arguing with the CMP, BladeBr. Or else they can get removed by High Command, right?

[Dauntasa]

No, just no.

The MPs are not there to be glorified Marines that guard Dropships/ grounds without a FOB. They are there to uphold the law and make sure the marines are behaving, since we can't really count on Marines to behave because, well, this is SS13. I don't agree with COs overruling the CMP on matters of law, even less pardoning crimes. This is stupid.

In no military, if someone breaks the rules, he would be pardoned by the Commander because "Oh, you are a specialist so you are important". That's not how it works. If you want to have fun, you either don't break the law or break it while on the ground where no one can do anything about it. If we give the authority to the COs, they would just go in a pardoning spree, releasing everyone and overruling crimes, giving 0 shits about the procedure. I know because I already got that happening before with me, it's shitty that a CO wants to ignore the crimes of a guy for assault with deadly weapon, disrespect, assault, resisting arrest just because he's an SL/Spec.

And last, if COs aren't supposed to be brigged every time, then perhaps they shouldn't... you know... wear Pajamas while doing briefing? Perhaps? I already COed several times, still not even a single time the CMP or MPs messed with me. And they will never will because I don't try to skirt the law or some shit a Commander would never realistically do.

Here's a solution, then: divide all crimes into 2 categories, Felony and Misdemeanor. Felonies would be anything violent along with sedition, theft and trespassing. Misdemeanors is everything else. CO can pardon or suspend the sentence of first offence Misdemeanors only. I can very much see a Commander saying "don't throw my Requisitions Officer in jail while he's coordinating supply for a major operation and the only crime he's committed is a uniform violation" in real life.

[Nantei]

Here's a solution, then: divide all crimes into 2 categories, Felony and Misdemeanor. Felonies would be anything violent along with sedition, theft and trespassing. Misdemeanors is everything else. CO can pardon or suspend the sentence of first offence Misdemeanors only. I can very much see a Commander saying "don't throw my Requisitions Officer in jail while he's coordinating supply for a major operation and the only crime he's committed is a uniform violation" in real life.

This.

Also please stop the bad faith, "It doesn't happen to me so it's not a problem," arguments. They're silly, unconstructive, and ignore the many valid stories of people being targeted by MP's. Just because you aren't targeted doesn't mean others aren't.

[NoahKirchner]

people dont want less admin intervention in order to increase roleplay, its quite the opposite actually, they want to lowRP. There never was an admin intervention problem with HRP before, example is Bill Carson who edges or sometimes breaks a rule and admins let it pass because the roleplay was amazing, and so do players.

I will vehemently disagree. The more staff intervention, the lower the quality of the roleplay that does pop. If people want to LRP they will do so whether or not there's staff intervention, but the more staff intervention you have the more you section players into one path that their emotions and actions can take. Take MPs for example, the more that they are confined in the ways that they can react to situations, for example if they are required to enforce and abide by marine law in every sense. In the aforementioned scenario, if an emergency happens aboard the ship that would justify small breaches in marine law, like trespassing or breaking a window, they would be physically unable to comply even if it was the morally and tactically correct scenario. While an extreme example, it still shows the glaring issues with overstaffing and an increase in LRP behaviour is not one of those issues. People LRP'd before the recent rule changes, people will continue to LRP after them, it's a matter of the player's desire to RP as opposed to the ruleset. If people want to HRP or MRP they're not going to suddenly LRP because the rules are now looser, because if they were being forced to they wouldn't play here.

[Casany]

No, just no.

The MPs are not there to be glorified Marines that guard Dropships/ grounds without a FOB. They are there to uphold the law and make sure the marines are behaving, since we can't really count on Marines to behave because, well, this is SS13. I don't agree with COs overruling the CMP on matters of law, even less pardoning crimes. This is stupid.

In no military, if someone breaks the rules, he would be pardoned by the Commander because "Oh, you are a specialist so you are important". That's not how it works. If you want to have fun, you either don't break the law or break it while on the ground where no one can do anything about it. If we give the authority to the COs, they would just go in a pardoning spree, releasing everyone and overruling crimes, giving 0 shits about the procedure. I know because I already got that happening before with me, it's shitty that a CO wants to ignore the crimes of a guy for assault with deadly weapon, disrespect, assault, resisting arrest just because he's an SL/Spec.

And last, if COs aren't supposed to be brigged every time, then perhaps they shouldn't... you know... wear Pajamas while doing briefing? Perhaps? I already COed several times, still not even a single time the CMP or MPs messed with me. And they will never will because I don't try to skirt the law or some shit a Commander would never realistically do.

Literal worst person to be commenting here.

All input is welcome but you have a huge bias towards MPs. And you can’t say you don’t. Before you were staff you made it very clear that you were an MP main, and you were only an MP main because you disliked marines. If someone doesn’t believe me look through his old post history.

The argument “it hasn’t happened to me so it’s not an issue” is a fallacy. Have you noticed that the majority of people who have been hit by these bad MP players have been known players who staff dislike? Or, if it isn’t that it’s in a round where the CMP is a notorious bender of the rules and shitler. Perhaps you’ve just got lucky.

I’ll use an example here. Car crashes. Someone walks up to me and says “There are a lot of car crashes around here, what can we do to fix it?” And the other guy responds “No there aren’t! I haven’t crashed so it’s not an issue!”. That’s total insanity, anyone would agree.

[davidofmk771]

If you want to have fun, you either don't break the law or break it while on the ground where no one can do anything about it.

You understand why maybe there's a problem here? I don't play this game to not have fun. None of us do.

[Davidchan]

No, just no.

The MPs are not there to be glorified Marines that guard Dropships/ grounds without a FOB. They are there to uphold the law and make sure the marines are behaving, since we can't really count on Marines to behave because, well, this is SS13. I don't agree with COs overruling the CMP on matters of law, even less pardoning crimes. This is stupid.

In no military, if someone breaks the rules, he would be pardoned by the Commander because "Oh, you are a specialist so you are important". That's not how it works. If you want to have fun, you either don't break the law or break it while on the ground where no one can do anything about it. If we give the authority to the COs, they would just go in a pardoning spree, releasing everyone and overruling crimes, giving 0 shits about the procedure. I know because I already got that happening before with me, it's shitty that a CO wants to ignore the crimes of a guy for assault with deadly weapon, disrespect, assault, resisting arrest just because he's an SL/Spec.

And last, if COs aren't supposed to be brigged every time, then perhaps they shouldn't... you know... wear Pajamas while doing briefing? Perhaps? I already COed several times, still not even a single time the CMP or MPs messed with me. And they will never will because I don't try to skirt the law or some shit a Commander would never realistically do.

In no Military are the Security Forces/Military Police arresting soldiers for uniform violations. In no Military is an argument between a PFC and a CPL result in the PFC being dragged off in cuffs because an MP walked by and heard it. In no Military is an E-6 threatening an O-1 with indefinite incarceration because an E-3 ran out onto the landing pad after the helicopter was cleared to land.

I don't know who or where you're getting this idea that MPs function anything like they do on CM. Because they don't. MPs aren't involved in NJPs. Period.. If two marines were caught having a fist fight, they'd be sent to quarters till their CO could be informed and taken to him to explain their actions before the CO determined how to punish them. No one would go to the brig and the MPs only job would be to ensure they couldn't run off. If a marine was out of uniform, the MPs wouldn't give a shit. It'd be up to his supervisor to chew his ass out, be that his Squad Leader or Squad Commander, or just what ever NCO he happened to be under in the CoC. In the middle of a combat operation? You'd better fucking believe the CO is going to keep his men on duty unless they've committed a serious infraction or otherwise interfering with the operation.

If COs are giving briefings in their under wear or doing stupid shit, that's on the staff. CO is a Whitelisted role, if people who have been 'vetted' aren't living up to expectations of the role then those who approved the candidate need to review the process.

If MPs were even the least bit realistic to their real life counter parts, they'd be manning the checkpoints on the Almayer, watching security cameras monitoring high security areas and occasionally patrolling high traffic areas to prevent any serious incidents from occurring. They sure as fuck wouldn't be rummaging through prep rooms (something I ALWAYS see when I late join is MPs in prep rooms) and they definitely shouldn't be going around trying to give orders to marines to bait some poor schmuck into an insubordination charge because their default rank is about 4 grades too high for their damn job.

[Symbiosis]

In no Military are the Security Forces/Military Police arresting soldiers for uniform violations. In no Military is an argument between a PFC and a CPL result in the PFC being dragged off in cuffs because an MP walked by and heard it. In no Military is an E-6 threatening an O-1 with indefinite incarceration because an E-3 ran out onto the landing pad after the helicopter was cleared to land.

I don't know who or where you're getting this idea that MPs function anything like they do on CM. Because they don't. MPs aren't involved in NJPs. Period.. If two marines were caught having a fist fight, they'd be sent to quarters till their CO could be informed and taken to him to explain their actions before the CO determined how to punish them. No one would go to the brig and the MPs only job would be to ensure they couldn't run off. If a marine was out of uniform, the MPs wouldn't give a shit. It'd be up to his supervisor to chew his ass out, be that his Squad Leader or Squad Commander, or just what ever NCO he happened to be under in the CoC. In the middle of a combat operation? You'd better fucking believe the CO is going to keep his men on duty unless they've committed a serious infraction or otherwise interfering with the operation.

If MPs were even the least bit realistic to their real life counter parts, they'd be manning the checkpoints on the Almayer, watching security cameras monitoring high security areas and occasionally patrolling high traffic areas to prevent any serious incidents from occurring. They sure as fuck wouldn't be rummaging through prep rooms (something I ALWAYS see when I late join is MPs in prep rooms) and they definitely shouldn't be going around trying to give orders to marines to bait some poor schmuck into an insubordination charge because their default rank is about 4 grades too high for their damn job.

Everything about this.

To add to this, we’ve reached full circle when MPs are trying to permanently confine PO’s for random Marines running on the dropship pad.

There are multiple topics on this, all in the last few weeks. It would be acceptable if MP’s were subject to the same scrutiny as they themselves hold others too, but this is NOT the case. They are afforded protections at the IC and OOC level that transcend any other level on the Almayer - which wouldn’t be a huge concern were it not for the oft documented cases of abuse, soft grief, and high levels of round chaos caused by these actions.

Without a single action taken against these players.

[Zartam]

MPs need something interesting to do until the hijack of the Alamo at the end of the round. Otherwise, they have no choice but to harass everybody in the name of Marine law if they want to have fun... and this is the worst kind of fun.

A PvE-based gameplay where they have to eradicate a pest spreading in maintenance or an auto-antag system where every round, CMO, CL or RO have to accomplish an antag objective, like in classic SS13, could keep them busy until round-end chaos. They'd be actual heroes and they'd have something else to do than unrealistic law enforcement.

I stopped playing as an MP because it's boring when you don't want to be a terrible individual.

[Jeser]

Here's a solution, then: divide all crimes into 2 categories, Felony and Misdemeanor. Felonies would be anything violent along with sedition, theft and trespassing. Misdemeanors is everything else. CO can pardon or suspend the sentence of first offence Misdemeanors only. I can very much see a Commander saying "don't throw my Requisitions Officer in jail while he's coordinating supply for a major operation and the only crime he's committed is a uniform violation" in real life.

This.

[GoliathTheDespoiler]

CMP is not important enough to be a whitelisted role, and even if it was, whitelists are almost entirely a popularity contest. The same people who abuse marine law to ruin rounds for other players would get accepted onto the whitelist and the occasional CMP players who try it out once in a blue moon and contribute more to the round than pointless shitlery wouldn't be able to do so anymore. Frankly I think it'd make the issue worse.

CM staff also rarely remove whitelists for bad behavior, with only two commanders ever having had their whitelists removed, one because he was a dick on the forums for no reason and the other for blatant metagaming. If you do this the problem players will never actually be punished if they do get the whitelist because their whitelist will hardly, if ever, be removed.

There was also this guy who was banned for lowrp stuff. Or is this your first guy?

[Grubstank]

I think the answer to MPs shittery is in other shipside roles -- for instance, adding depth to the researcher gives the CL more opportunities to stir up shit. Adding a little more support to the CL allows them to stir up shit without getting put down right away.

I also think it would be pretty cool if one or two marines were given objectives as corporate spies -- as you might see in a typical ss13 server (though perhaps less over the top). Either working for W-Y or a rival corp, they'd be another opportunity to add depth to the ship-board role play while the operation goes on.