A Real Discussion: Xeno Meta Gaming

[Sleepy Retard]

But getting injured/killed by something you cannot see literally happens all the time to marines. See: Boilers, pouncing from near off-screen, crushers meme running up and down the entire map. I do not see a bright green crosshairs appear when a boiler starts preparing a glob, it would be dumb to have it. Why do marines get that penalty?

The xenos still have the audio queue before air strikes, just remove the bright red laser that lets them know 20 seconds before the CAS starts.

Boilers: walk away
Pouncing off screen: doesn't happen, they have to be within buckshot range, keeping in mind that they can pounce into your buckshot, alternatively stick with the team
Crushers: listen and then move one tile

You know what has no counterplay? Artillery LTB. I don't see the need to remove the laser considering with competent SLs and POs you can bomb the xenos back to dust with little reaction time

[adrenalinetooth]

Allow aliens to slash suit lights on a marine once they are dead. This would also slash the strap on the gun making it fall off the armor in case the weapon has a light too. An engineer can use his welder on an armor piece to fix the suit light.

There ya go. No more bullshit excuse to drag a marine away anymore with this suggestion.

[adrenalinetooth]

You know what has no counterplay? Artillery LTB.

Incorrect. Good communication between xenos that constantly report the tank location saves you from getting dunked.
Crushers can look for the tank without risk of getting stunned or insta gibbed.
Boilers have a few more tiles view than the tank; they can see it coming first, and report it's position to the hive.
The queen can spectate a xeno and see the tank with her extended vision ability.

As for taking down a tank, the best way is to drag it as far way from the FOB as possible, preferrably near the hive where it is narrow and it cannot enter. Marines will have to move forward alone to clear the hive because it is too narrow; this is where you kill the marines, and then either straight up rush the tank or flank it. It will get fucked up by crushers and defenders quick with all of their marine support dead. If marine command is smart they will leave marines to defend it at all times, but marines are impatient and will leave it to clear out the hive 95% of the time.

Just bring the fight to the hive where the sticky resin is strong and the chokepoints are cheesy. The tank cannot enter. The tank cannot get little patch jobs done so every little scratch counts. Fun fact, the tank can be destroyed in about 20 shotgun shells or 3-4 m41a magazine's worth of bullets if it has anything other than ballistic armor.


If the tank is on the Almayer with the marines on the first floor, guerrilla warfare that shit by poking the marines from all sides so fast the tank cannot react in time. Whittle down the marines, and then finish off the tank.

[Avalanchee]

Xeno meta is present,
Dead bodies have no rights? Miss me with that.
Let marines 'scout' Civ at 12:55 and I will be fine with dead bodies being under tables so they don't get revived

[Bloodl1ke]

Shit happens, and meta works both ways - robust marines know to countercharge boilers and queens while their abilities are cooling down, but somehow that more subtle form of metatargeting flies under the radar.

I wouldn't consider knowing things aren't spammable (aka have some cooldown) as much of a metagame as the fact most veteran marines know which alien types are immune against what.

[BobatNight]

But getting injured/killed by something you cannot see literally happens all the time to marines. See: Boilers, pouncing from near off-screen, crushers meme running up and down the entire map. I do not see a bright green crosshairs appear when a boiler starts preparing a glob, it would be dumb to have it. Why do marines get that penalty?

The xenos still have the audio queue before air strikes, just remove the bright red laser that lets them know 20 seconds before the CAS starts.

Marines can easily fire CAS or place OBs on tiles that're blocked by xeno vision.
You cannot pounce off screen, you need to be fairly close.

Expecting Xenos not to drag an asset for the marines away (Medics/Engis/Specs) is just ridiculous. You've died, it's usually your fault that this happened but in some cases no it isn't but that is the game.
Some meta will always exist, it exists for both sides and the staff does their best to curb meta/powergaming where they see it.
The balance has been great lately, lets not nerf the Xeno side anymore or we're going to have even more burrowed larva instead of active players.

[Grubstank]

You can't attack a dead body like someone suggested on the other page, the only way a xeno could attack a dead body as far as I know are...
-Flames (Which set the xeno on fire too)
-Disposal Chutes
-Boiler Gas

You'd have to go pretty far out of your way to purposefully husk a marine corpse, it's a whole lot easier to just hide them.

We've already established in this thread that the dead DO have rights, and now your own defense openly admits that moving corpses is just a cheap bypass to the anti-husking mechanics devs put in.

Did you not the self-sabotage here when you were making your post?

[BobatNight]

Why beat around the bush? Lights is actually sometimes legit reason but often it's just common sense. Leaving a marine you killed in high traffic areas would obviously mean a defib, if a single Xeno sees a defib happen, we all know it happened. Are admins gonna track that moment down? No that's completely fucking retarded.
Both sides get a pass on different types of meta, the issue of corpse dragging can be argued with legit reasoning (Lights, Defibs)
Most forms of Meta from BOTH sides is allowed for reasonable reasons, Face Huggers, CAS/OB, Queen Screech/Boiler Acid, APCs, VENTS (Which are horribly fucking broken right now), caste types/Limited marine roles, every single Marine FOB on every single map, Weed/Resin/Wall placement.
See where I'm going? Just get over the fact that you died.

@

Snipped

[Casany]

Why beat around the bush? Lights is actually sometimes legit reason but often it's just common sense. Leaving a marine you killed in high traffic areas would obviously mean a defib, if a single Xeno sees a defib happen, we all know it happened. Are admins gonna track that moment down? No that's completely fucking retarded.
Both sides get a pass on different types of meta, the issue of corpse dragging can be argued with legit reasoning (Lights, Defibs)
Most forms of Meta from BOTH sides is allowed for reasonable reasons, Face Huggers, CAS/OB, Queen Screech/Boiler Acid, APCs, VENTS (Which are horribly fucking broken right now), caste types/Limited marine roles, every single Marine FOB on every single map, Weed/Resin/Wall placement.
See where I'm going? Just get over the fact that you died.

Xenos don’t even have a button to turn off darkvision anymore, or at least I couldn’t find it when I played last week. Literally someone could die without lights on and they’d still be dragged off. Shit like xenos dragging survivors away who have no lights happens. You also have shit like xenos not slashing lights on LV or breaking light tubes, which also produce lights. And guns with rail lights go unmelted way longer than let’s say a gun with a barrel charger. The whole lights argument would only make sense if xenos actively broke lights as a priority as much as they drag bodies. But they don’t, in fact there are plenty of places where the xenos could destroy lights but don’t. Defibs would make sense except when you realize that defibs happen way out of the xenos lines of sight. If a defib is happening there aren’t xenos around, or else the dead guy woulda been dragged away already.

And all the examples of “meta” make no sense. Of course the mods aren’t gonna force people to kill themselves or get banned, and I don’t even know where you’re going with Marine FOBs and resin placement.

The point I’m making is that while “technically” you could say that xenos are doing it for reasons no having to do with denying marines the chance to be sefibed, that’s just not true. I don’t care one way or another if xenos drag bodies or not honestly, but I’d rather xeno players just admit that they’re doing it to deny marines defibs, and I’d rather the staff team amend the rules so that it allows all xeno metagaming so these issues don’t happen. I don’t like the grey area and I’d rather it just be removed entirely rather than kept.

[BobatNight]

-Snippity-

Ok so you obviously don't play Xeno often or you'd know the dark vision toggle is on the right side of your screen. Xenos actively break lights and melt flares/Rail lights, it's not always a priority for these castes as they're often front line fighters and not flankers. I personally destroy every light I'm able as a Lurker, but you're not going to see a Spitter caste sharing the same ambush spots as me usually. These roles are mostly seen near the hive and front lines with exceptions.
If I've found a good hole in marine defenses and can ambush marines easily, I'm not going to leave dead bodies littered around to alert potential prey of the threat in the area, nor do I want the light they produce.
I watch defibs all the time, thru the use of vents or Lurker stealth, I put myself right next to the Marine's constantly. Anywhere there's a dark tile could be a xeno lurking, you're kidding yourself if you don't think a xeno sees nearly every movement the marines make. We're always there, around a corner or the edge of the light.

Marine defenses have a very specific Meta on most maps, that's just a fact. Like-wise Xenos will also build up and nest in 'meta' places, they know it's a good place.

It's not always defibs, this is also ignoring the fact that most marines are killed WHILE being drug away as well.
Lights and maintaining your ambush spots aren't excuses.

[Jeser]

People continue to stubborny ignore the fact that multiple ideas how to fix metatargeting and body dragging were offered by players and stuff members and literally NONE of them were introduced.

And don't mention blurr test, devs took my idea, cut off half of it and said it's bad.

[Symbiosis]

People continue to stubborny ignore the fact that multiple ideas how to fix metatargeting and body dragging were offered by players and stuff members and literally NONE of them were introduced.

And don't mention blurr test, devs took my idea, cut off half of it and said it's bad.

Blurring was bad. Real bad.

Name removal would be pretty fine.

You have to understand that 90% of most CM rounds it’s 5-6 Xenos carrying the Hive. Most Xeno Players don’t have a firm understanding of their limitations or even their basic abilities.

Marines have been forced to become robust, Xenos coddled to the point where many Xeno players can’t handle small nerfs.

[Lorem123]

Yeah, I have seen you bring this point up in a few different threads Symb. Xeno players are coddled both by gameplay mechanics and the admins allowing them to get away with a LOT more than the marines usually do.
Rounds are less 'how good are the xenos' and more 'how good are the marines and how much nonsense can the xenos get away with'.

[Tharinoma]

As far as I'm aware, xenos being "coddled" is very much intended. Again, the marines are the focus of the story.

I'm also pretty sure all the suggestions related to preventing xeno meta was discussed by the devs and or heads.

For those that are interested, you can post suggestions on the git.

[Imperator_Titan]

Name removal would be pretty fine.

The only issue with name removal would be rule enforcement ones. It'd be quite hard to report marines if their names were blanked out. For example, a marine welds all the vents at roundstart without even seeing the xenomorphs before one of them ahelps. It'd be a back and forth game of who it was.

[Gnorse]

The only issue with name removal would be rule enforcement ones. It'd be quite hard to report marines if their names were blanked out. For example, a marine welds all the vents at roundstart without even seeing the xenomorphs before one of them ahelps. It'd be a back and forth game of who it was.

I'm pretty sure marines report other marines as well.

[Symbiosis]

The only issue with name removal would be rule enforcement ones. It'd be quite hard to report marines if their names were blanked out. For example, a marine welds all the vents at roundstart without even seeing the xenomorphs before one of them ahelps. It'd be a back and forth game of who it was.

Then maybe a number system for Xenos to report? That’s a good point, though.

[Imperator_Titan]

I'm pretty sure marines report other marines as well.

Not all the time though brother. It'd just make those certain ahelps a lot more difficult to figure out, which is my point.

A number system might be hard to implement but I sure wouldn't mind one. I ain't a dev so I can't really speak for how hard it is to change the name of certain individuals for one side.

[Dolth]

Xeno meta is present,
Dead bodies have no rights? Miss me with that.
Let marines 'scout' Civ at 12:55 and I will be fine with dead bodies being under tables so they don't get revived

What he said.

[kamenkuro]

Moving because lights is a dumb reason because that just means I now have a clearer view of the xeno being a goober slowing themselves down by dragging off a dead guy. I've shaken a number of xenos off guys because they thought "ooh better yank him so he doesn't get defibbed" and didn't slink into the darkness where I couldn't chase them down. If they're dumb enough to meta in my face I'll make sure they run off with lead in their chitinous ass.

[Davidchan]

I mean if Xenos dragging corpses is legit then marines killing animals is too, denying the enemy a resource without any IC reason to do so.

[Tharinoma]

Marines start knowing nothing about the xenos, while xenos dragging bodies away is considered part of the lore. Once marines fully know about the xenomorph reproduction cycle, they are allowed to kill monkeys.
The exception is survivors, who know about xenos but aren't allowed to go on a monkey murder spree. That's just in for gameplay an balance reasons, plus that survivors are supposed to be focused on surviving.

[caleeb101]

Marines start knowing nothing about the xenos, while xenos dragging bodies away is considered part of the lore. Once marines fully know about the xenomorph reproduction cycle, they are allowed to kill monkeys.
The exception is survivors, who know about xenos but aren't allowed to go on a monkey murder spree. That's just in for gameplay an balance reasons, plus that survivors are supposed to be focused on surviving.

well thing is, by the time marines know about the cycle xenos are already done with monkies so it don't affect them at all. Even if we consider that survivors might tell marines about the cycle, xenos would be done with monkies by that time.

meanwhile, dragging bodies off is always effective and has no downsides/punishments so ofc xenos are gonna do it. If you don't want someone to come back, you make sure of it. I get it.

[Dolth]

Marines start knowing nothing about the xenos, while xenos dragging bodies away is considered part of the lore. Once marines fully know about the xenomorph reproduction cycle, they are allowed to kill monkeys.
The exception is survivors, who know about xenos but aren't allowed to go on a monkey murder spree. That's just in for gameplay an balance reasons, plus that survivors are supposed to be focused on surviving.

The lore include dragging humans to infect them, or dragging to kill. Yes.

Strictly NOT dragging a dead already body because other marines approach.

[BobatNight]

Xeno players are coddled both by gameplay mechanics and the admins allowing them to get away with a LOT more than the marines usually do.
Rounds are less 'how good are the xenos' and more 'how good are the marines and how much nonsense can the xenos get away with'.

Riiiiiiiiight.

There's plenty of legit reasons for moving dead marines, stop being so salty about dieing please.