Update Discussion Thread (August 2018)

[Xperia15]

Rifles are pretty accurate.
They have a high chance of hitting targets. You can click behind an xeno and the bullets can still hit.
Bullets still hit targets who are out of sight when they are walking on the same tile.
But this is where deflecting also has a higher chance of happening.

[Dolth]

I only decreased shotgun damage by one step, i'll have to see if it really decreased it that much.

I have little birds who told me you decreased the damages about to half. Ending in an elder runner surviving a PB. That's just one step, is it?

Now to rifle accuracy. It's still low without attachments and low damages forces people to use burst which has even worse accuracy and spread.

Regarding the SMG I am still unsure if the damages were buffed or not but it now has a WAY higher RoF which is great and all. Me likey.

[Casany]

Wel they did improve the accuracy of the pulse rifle.

Shotguns were way too OP. I remember a round on prison station not too recently where I was an elite queen and Marines were attacking the hive at civilian. I deovid of course and moved to help defend the hive. I approached the attacking marines, screeched, and tried to tactically retreat.
It failed miserably because a Marine with no armor who was double wielding shotguns with buckshot and some attachments removed 75% of my health with 2 shots. I died a few seconds after.

You know you could have ACTUALLY killed him in two slashes. Or, how about you don’t overextend?

This isn’t a question of a weapon being op. I could say Lurkers are OP because I ran up to shoot one with my gun and it pounced me and murdered me.

I could say Boilers are OP because I was running without armor about to get one but it sprayed me.

Literally, this is just skill not a weapon being OP. The risk VS reward was where it should have been. Take the risk of 1. No light 2. No armor and 3. CQC combat and if you manage to LOSE that as a xeno then that is on you.

[Simo94]

The accuracy on M41A bullets if they do land is nice, however stray bullets on burst fire is still a nightmare.

I still think Slugs damage reduction should be reverted, and also its about time devs add Flechettes to squad prep vendors as they dont seem that powerful or special.

[BillyBoBBizWorth]

How about instead of forcing people to take an underpowered weapon which is just objectively worse, make it better so it incentivizes people to pick it.

Have to agree, its a much better way of going about it.Luckily we are seeing signs of that happening slowly, proof being the M39.Then you hear reports that shotgun damage is halved and we are straight back to square one again, im hoping people are over exaggerating in claiming its literally half the damage it used to have, but i have a funny feeling they may not be.

Regarding the SMG I am still unsure if the damages were buffed or not but it now has a WAY higher RoF which is great and all. Me likey.

Me too, Its fun isnt it!! I think the damage on the M39 wasnt actually changed, because the increase for xenoes armor/HP or whatnot already would have compensated for the ROF it should have, which now does, without having to touch the damage.Could be wrong but it seems to be the case.If i am wrong, the change was subtle enough that its not really noticed which is fantastic, thats the kind of adjustment that should of been done to the shotgun.Enough that it achieved what the coder wants it to do, but not enough that its so noticeable that marines re-assess whether they should even use it or not.

[Herac]

On the subject of PB shotgun damage I do remember spooky saying there was a bug affecting it sometimes, I wouldn't be too sure of the damage values especially if it's being used on a monkey.

I agree that slug shouldn't have it's damage reduced, considering how unpopular it is compared to buckshot and because I like people taking slugshot to stun xenos whilst their team mates finish them off.

Also, since flech wasn't nerfed I'm assuming that's actually a bit more competitive now.

[VentDuctConspiracy]

The accuracy on M41A bullets if they do land is nice, however stray bullets on burst fire is still a nightmare.

I still think Slugs damage reduction should be reverted, and also its about time devs add Flechettes to squad prep vendors as they dont seem that powerful or special.

Slug damage nerf definitely pushes the slugs into a support only role, meant to scare off xenos or set them up to be shot by others.

Also flechettes really just need to be added to squad vendors. Last time I asked for some flechettes I just got two boxes straight up.

[WinterClould]

Before my internet went out I was running a M4A3 QF, Ext, Laser wesring no armor set up. Felt fun and about as useful as using any other weapon. Spamming 9mm around with the qf was actually fun. Keep a flashlight in your pocket, a firstaid pouch, then fill your satchel with ammo and just have a pistol holster belt. Meme around with any AP your engis can get for you. Fun time for the whole family. Even with the amount of bullets you can spit out you don't do any damage but shit, we're marines so nothing does any damage!

[spookydonut]

shotgun damage is definitely not halved. It was reduced by about 15%.

[Dauntasa]

shotgun damage is definitely not halved. It was reduced by about 15%.

Honestly you might want to check for bugs regarding it, then, because it definitely seems to be doing a lot less damage than that in practice.

[Surrealistik]

rifles dont feel any different tbh

i still see em miss half the time and they dont feel like they hurt t2s or t3s at all

This.

Why is the obvious solution so fucking difficult? Revert the shotgun nerf, increase the rifle damage by at least one step, or give it some basic, low level armour penetration so it's actually worth a shit against anything that has even an iota of armour without needing AP without brutalizing soft T1s which it is already pretty good at.

[Herac]

I'm not a fan of the buff everything approch. I don't want rifles to become OP just because shotguns were OP.

Honestly you might want to check for bugs regarding it, then, because it definitely seems to be doing a lot less damage than that in practice.

I'm aware of at least 1 shotgun glitch that makes PB do almost no damage, so I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were other bugs hidden away.

[Dauntasa]

I'm not a fan of the buff everything approch. I don't want rifles to become OP just because shotguns were OP.

Shotguns were never OP. The reason that they're universally used is because rifles are weak.

[Gnorse]

I can safely say that the shotgun was utterly destroyed. Shot a young lurker PB and it just got up and ran.

[Dauntasa]

I can safely say that the shotgun was utterly destroyed. Shot a young lurker PB and it just got up and ran.

I had a young drone survive 2 buckshot PBs while I took enough acid spray in response to end up in paincrit.

it's still better than the rifle though

[Saytkl77]

I think one thing that might make the shotgun buckshot nerf seem stronger, is that going from insta-critting someone to needing two shots, means you have to hit them twice, so even if the damage is only 15% less it feels like a lot more, because now you have to land 2 shots instead of one.

I definitely feel like some nerf was needed though, I had a game as queen where I had warding up and about 80% hp, I'm surrounded by aliens and there is a lone marine on screen, and 5-6 marines off screen, I walk up to tackle him and drag him to an egg, suddenly I'm PB buckshotted and in crit from 80% hp, a few rifles shots from off screen and I'm dead. I'm guessing Devs didn't intend for lone marines to be doing 80% of Queen/T3s hp in a single shot, in a game balanced around 30 aliens fighting off 90 marines.

[Surrealistik]

Keep in mind that the shotgun deals a fuck ton of damage; I believe it's easily over 100 vs someone unarmoured pre-nerf assuming all projectiles hit within range 2 (or if you're ignoring armour in the case of a PB) so a 15% loss is very significant, nevermind the impact on key break points, like doing enough damage to 1-2 shot crit an alien, and the influence on any bonus damage from point blanking.

Moreover, 15% is I believe about the damage bonus a barrel charger gives you.

[Herac]

Shotguns were never OP. The reason that they're universally used is because rifles are weak.

We have different defintions of OP.

For me, the fact that it was so often just a one hit kill button made it OP. And I don't agree with rifles being weak at all, for me they are the standard weapon by which all the others are judged, if anything the rifle is just normal.

If people are really struggling with shotgun damage now I'd suggest taking a BC to compensate.

[Sulaboy]

I know I meme this a bit, but I feel that the changes to buckshot could be temporary. I think it's dumb that half a battalion of marines go into battle with shotguns. In the future I feel that shotguns would be properly balanced by adding HvH as a proper game mode. Having HvH appear as the reason for the distress call without prior notice to the players would force players to balance their builds between the two possible enemies.

I think after the changes that every weapon is viable against the Xenos as long as you don't ruin them with some poor attachment choices or grossly misuse them.

[Gnorse]

See, I'd be fine with nerfing the shotgun if it meant making it safer to use.
It's a risk and reward weapon. You can't just lower the reward and keep the risk as is. Raise them both, lower them both or don't touch either of them.

[Build_R_]

See, I'd be fine with nerfing the shotgun if it meant making it safer to use.
It's a risk and reward weapon. You can't just lower the reward and keep the risk as is. Raise them both, lower them both or don't touch either of them.

Judging from the incredible amount of marines using it, I would think that the ratio of risk:reward isn't correct and there is either not high enough of a risk or too much of a reward. Lowering the reward slightly has probably lowered the amount of marines with a shotgun main loadout. How would someone make the gun 'safer to use' though?

[Herac]

See, I'd be fine with nerfing the shotgun if it meant making it safer to use.
It's a risk and reward weapon. You can't just lower the reward and keep the risk as is. Raise them both, lower them both or don't touch either of them.

Actually I think you touch on a really good point.

At least for buckshot, I don't think you can lower the risk for using slug so I'd like the 'reward' for that to stay the same. But if buckshot behaved more like it did IRL, and the spread for the additional projectiles was made a bit tighter so you could still concivably land 3 additional shots from 2 or 3 tiles away that would actually discourage people running up and PB'ing with it whilst making up for the damage reductions.

[Dauntasa]

Judging from the incredible amount of marines using it, I would think that the ratio of risk:reward isn't correct and there is either not high enough of a risk or too much of a reward. Lowering the reward slightly has probably lowered the amount of marines with a shotgun main loadout. How would someone make the gun 'safer to use' though?

You're making a common mistake when it comes to looking at balance. It's easy to say "oh, 90% of people choose Option B, option B must be too strong", and you might be right, but you must also consider that option A might be too weak. In this case, let's look at the shotgun vs. the pulse rifle.

You are a marine. You have a shotgun loaded with buckshot. You see a Mature Lurker 6 tiles away from you. If you want to engage it, you have to run up to it and shoot it with your shotgun, but there is a large risk that it will pounce on you and claw your face off. However, if you successfully shoot it at close range, you'll likely kill it. High risk, High Reward.

You are a marine. You have a pulse rifle. You see a Mature Lurker 6 tiles away from you. You can shoot at it from long range, likely missing and doing minimal damage. Alternatively, You can run up to it and shoot it, doing better damage. However, whichever one you do, it will survive your first burst and claw your face off. If you do have another marine watching your back, and he also has a pulse rifle, then it will have to run away, but is in no danger of dying. Unless the lurker is very, very bad at the game you will not be able to secure a kill with just pulse rifles. Moderate risk, zero reward.

The shotgun isn't overpowered(certainly not after the recent nerfs, anyway). The problem is, the Pulse Rifle offers you nothing. In order to fix this problem, I would just make it accurate and powerful enough that you can reasonably scare off T1s and squishier T2s with one burst. Not kill them, but deal enough damage to them that they wouldn't be able to charge at you safely. I'd say that 2 full bursts of AP should be enough to crit a T2, and that it should be able to hit accurately at screen edge on burst fire(with the relevant attachments). At that point it'd be a reasonable choice over the shotgun.

[WinterClould]

If to many people are using the shotgun why not just limit the number of shotguns avalible?

Also I'll say as a man who thinks he knows how things work, the shotgun was in fact used almost purely because of its stun potential and chance to actually do literally any damage at all. The rifle has always done jack shit for damage and has never had a stun, so it always made sense to use the shotgun over it for the slug stuns or buckshot damage.

Rifle only had range but even then it's like, who give a shit about range or accuracy in Human vs xeno when xenos don't die unless you're close to them?

It's only HvH that range matters, because man bullets kill people.

[Grubstank]

You're making a common mistake when it comes to looking at balance. It's easy to say "oh, 90% of people choose Option B, option B must be too strong", and you might be right, but you must also consider that option A might be too weak. In this case, let's look at the shotgun vs. the pulse rifle.

You are a marine. You have a shotgun loaded with buckshot. You see a Mature Lurker 6 tiles away from you. If you want to engage it, you have to run up to it and shoot it with your shotgun, but there is a large risk that it will pounce on you and claw your face off. However, if you successfully shoot it at close range, you'll likely kill it. High risk, High Reward.

You are a marine. You have a pulse rifle. You see a Mature Lurker 6 tiles away from you. You can shoot at it from long range, likely missing and doing minimal damage. Alternatively, You can run up to it and shoot it, doing better damage. However, whichever one you do, it will survive your first burst and claw your face off. If you do have another marine watching your back, and he also has a pulse rifle, then it will have to run away, but is in no danger of dying. Unless the lurker is very, very bad at the game you will not be able to secure a kill with just pulse rifles. Moderate risk, zero reward.

The shotgun isn't overpowered(certainly not after the recent nerfs, anyway). The problem is, the Pulse Rifle offers you nothing. In order to fix this problem, I would just make it accurate and powerful enough that you can reasonably scare off T1s and squishier T2s with one burst. Not kill them, but deal enough damage to them that they wouldn't be able to charge at you safely. I'd say that 2 full bursts of AP should be enough to crit a T2, and that it should be able to hit accurately at screen edge on burst fire(with the relevant attachments). At that point it'd be a reasonable choice over the shotgun.

I agree with your sentiment but not the extent you propose. A marine could squeeze off two bursts of AP faster than a xenos could even get off screeen. You would be forced into a meta where xenos would be forced to exclusively attack small groups that they were 100% certain of overwhelming, and blobs of PFCs would become virtually invincible.

Perhaps increasing the damage of the pulse rifle, decreasing it's fire rate, and decreasing burst accuracy would balance it in the way you describe, but certainly not your suggestion alone.