Update Discussion Thread (August 2018)

[Dauntasa]

I agree with your sentiment but not the extent you propose. A marine could squeeze off two bursts of AP faster than a xenos could even get off screeen. You would be forced into a meta where xenos would be forced to exclusively attack small groups that they were 100% certain of overwhelming, and blobs of PFCs would become virtually invincible.

Perhaps increasing the damage of the pulse rifle, decreasing it's fire rate, and decreasing burst accuracy would balance it in the way you describe, but certainly not your suggestion alone.

That's basically where we're already at, though, just those PFCs are all carrying shotguns. I think you're underestimating xeno speed and overestimating the pulse rifle's current firing speed. Not to mention overestimating PFC competency. Maybe that's a bit of overtune, or there's a better way of doing it, but the basic idea is this: currently, the Shotgun is the ONLY weapon which can potentially save you from an oncoming alien, by either stunning it with slugs or murdering it with buckshot. In order to make the pulse rifle viable, it needs to also be able to save you from an oncoming xeno. In order to make it fair, it shouldn't be able to KILL the xeno right away, but it should do enough damage that the xeno is put at risk of dying if it decides to continue attacking you. That's the only real way of getting people to take the pulse rifle. The only other option is to nerf the shotgun to the point where it's even worse than the pulse rifle, at which point we're back to the old 5% winrate from the Defender update.

[Casany]

Risk VS Reward for Shotgun was perfect

Xeno skill is what needed to catch up.

The "meta" I keep hearing about is "No armor pointblank buck duel-wielding"

There are a MYRIAD of ways you can take someone down who is THAT close, hell even before they get that close. Lemme run through it all with each caste.

Runner - Pounce, slash slash slash run when they get up, repeat
Lurker - Pounce, slash until dead (No armor means a young runner could at least cripple before they get up)
Ravager - Charge, slash while down, run off if they SOMEHOW survive, but that is SUPER unlikely
Sentinel - Neuro.
Spitter - Neuro.
Boiler - Spray.
Defender - Tailswipe, headbutt.
Warrior - Lunge, rip arms off
Crusher - Tackle, stomp. Or charge off if you think that RNG isn't on your side
Drone - Why are you on the front line. Tackle and/or run
Hivelord - Same as above
Carrier - Throw huggers, tackle and/or run
Queen - Screech, neuro.

Did I miss anything? Literally, it is INCREDIBLY easy to take a marine down who doesn't have armor. People think it's some low risk tactic but almost ANY front line xeno, ambush xeno or ranged xeno can take you down. The only castes that don't have much risk involved in killing them are Drone and Hivelord, but they've NEVER had any risk associated with killing them IMO. It is ludicrous that we see people saying this fucking tactic is low fucking risk when ONE slash from a young runner or lurker can do organ damage or break bones if you aren't wearing your armor

Xenos, literally it is the SKILL involved on your side, it isn't the weapon that's OP.

[Bancrose]

You have to get next to them to PB.

Which is fair, if the acid splatter doens't crit you right away, you got a chance. PBing xenos literally kills you from acid alone.

So my opinion, its a double edged sword with High Risk/High Reward.

[CABAL]

Well... I just can't belive some players don't understand why people are taking shotgun. They have to be 100% Beno mains, becouse nothing else can explain that:

Pulse Rifle = Medium/Low damage, fairly long range and NOTHING ELSE.
Shotgun = (Buckshot) High/Medium damage, short range and STUN! (Slug) Medium damage, medium range and STUN!

VS Xeno = STUN, high damage, fast and high HP pool and armor. Other castes just variate it a little bit like with runner sacrifacing HP and armor for more Speed.

DEAD Ancient Empress Hisses: "I wonder... Why marines are taking Shotgun? I don't know, no idea, it bugs me, I scratch my head... Why they are taking it? What shotgun have in this Stun based combat game that Pulse Rifle didn't? I don't know, I only play Xeno and REEEEEEEE! I died from pointblank buckshot! REEEEE! Nerf! I was a queen and I didn't notice that marine without armor dual wielding shotguns, neither my other xenos, he damaged my health! REEEE! Don't nerf dual wielding, nerf shotguns at all! This is the only way!"

Now we are taking "realism" to USCM equation?: "I think it's dumb that half a battalion of marines go into battle with shotguns."
This is High/Medium retarded. One of the arguments for nerfing shotguns is becouse Xenomains think it's "dumb", becouse no real military went into a battle with xenos armed with shotguns?

You know what to do to make Pulse Rifle a decent weapon? Make xenos slow down after getting hit. Give them limbs/parts of body damage/armor system.

Otherwise Pulse Rifle is only situational, good only when somebody with shotgun already stunned xeno and you are finishing it off. Shotgun with slugs, or buckshots is better in every other situation:

Escaping from xenos? (Alone and with others)
Pulse rifle = Wielding weapon makes you slower, bullets don't slow xenos and rifle won't kill anything besides young runner in two burts.
Shotgun (Slug/Buckshot) = Wielding makes you slower, but successful hit stuns beno and thanks to that you have chance to escape every xeno.
No gun at all = You are slighty faster, thanks to that you will go a few titles further.
Ranking in usefulness: 1) Shotgun, 2) No gun at all 3) Pulse Rifle.

Attacking xenos?
Pulse = Xenos after getting hit can easly retreat and heal, you won't catch them, and bullets only take some of their HP, nothing else.
Shotgun (Slug) = Xenos after getting hit are stunned, allowing other marines with pulse rifle to kill it, more marines with slugs could even stunlock beno (Forget it fast beno mains, after realising this might work in theory Admin's Private Message box on forum and Discord will change into "Wieliczka" mine and I'm sure xenos will get stun immunity for few sec after stun).
Shotgun (Buckshot) = Like slug, but you have to be closer and you deal high damage.

Need more?

[Xperia15]

There should be no weapon that can insta kill or insta crit an alien that is accessible by everyone.
Marines have already access to so many equipment and tools, vehicles and bombardments.
Shotgun damage was decreased by 15%, as announced by the head Dev, not halfed.
What most marines don't want to understand is that xeno rely heavily on melee damage, and most pfc with shotguns will just wait out until you get in range.
Also about the it's easy to take down a Marine with no armor; have you ever tried engaging an Marine with shotguns and no armor? They have the movement buff and if you fucking miss they shred you and pursue you.
I heard no Marine main crying about 'muh shotgun needs buff to insta kill dunga' when Apophis and the 80% winrate was still in place.

Conclusion is that I think that the shotgun nerf was needed to make playing xeno fun again. I say don't buff or nerf the shotgun any more, leave it now as it is.

[Jeser]

Shotgun (Slug) = Xenos after getting hit are stunned, allowing other marines with pulse rifle to kill it, more marines with slugs could even stunlock beno (Forget it fast beno mains, after realising this might work in theory Admin's Private Message box on forum and Discord will change into "Wieliczka" mine and I'm sure xenos will get stun immunity for few sec after stun).

Xenos have anti-stunlock system, which means if you apply stun while xeno is stunned, it won't apply and xeno will get up after end of first stun, only damage from second stun will apply.
It was done to counter skilled marines with slugs shotguns (See the point? Counter for skill. smh). Which also rendered UGLs and B18 spec almost useless, because you need to precisely calculate time when xeno will get up and throw nade (which has 2 second timer, btw) so it will go off right after xeno will get up (good luck trying that with lurkers/runners).

[NethIafins]

problem of shotgun was that it is high risk/very high reward. If you take into account lags (and yes, general unrobustness of xenos) it may turn out as pretty unfair.

But yeah, rifles are still shit.

If buckshot is actually lowered by 15% (I.e. it no longer instacrits elder runners and leaves them with maybe 5% hp) and rifles are precise at range - i'd be happy

[Gnorse]

"I heard no Marine main crying about 'muh shotgun needs buff to insta kill dunga' when Apophis and the 80% winrate was in place"

That's because ... the shotgun was good back then ? I really don't get your point.

At any eate, this whole "instakill" shtick doesn't stick. If one side has it, the other side should as well.


It's honestly ironic as hell seeing xenos complain about stuns and/or damage.

[Xperia15]

That's because ... the shotgun was good back then ? I really don't get your point.

At any eate, this whole "instakill" shtick doesn't stick. If one side has it, the other side should as well.


It's honestly ironic as hell seeing xenos complain about stuns and/or damage.

Shotguns were moderately good. You couldn't point blank click a xeno and insta crit them, but you could stun lock them with slugs and a full buckshot blast was extremely dangerous.

There is no xeno ability that can insta kill a Marine, else than the queen gib ability and the warrior head pull, but those ability take time to use and you have to hold them still. If there is an actual ability to insta kill a Marine, then bring up which one it is.
Also don't forget that marines can be revived, xeno cannot. They can only respawn and you'll lose all progress you made. Being insta killed because you made a mistake is awful, on both sides, and that's why neither should have them.

Just buff the rifles and leave the shotguns as they are now.

[Gnorse]

Oh I don't know.
Boiler cloud direct hit, ravager charge decap, lurker pounce + decap, anything above a young crusher's charge ...
Did I miss anything ?

The reason xenos don't have a so called "instakill" ability is because they rely on stuns. Every caste that has even the slightest reason being on the front has a stun ability, and since this is ss13, If you're stunned, you're likely dead.

[Xperia15]

Oh I don't know.
Boiler cloud direct hit, ravager charge decap, lurker pounce + decap, anything above a young crusher's charge ...
Did I miss anything ?

The reason xenos don't have a so called "instakill" ability is because they rely on stuns. Every caste that has even the slightest reason being on the front has a stun ability, and since this is ss13, If you're stunned, you're likely dead.

Those rely on RNG, while shotguns have fixed damage stats that will always work.

Also not everyone has those abilitys and there aren't hordes of boilers or ravagers or crushers, neither lurkers, while there are hordes of PFC with shotguns.

And yes I agree, xeno rely on stun because they are melee castes. It's hel difficult to slash a moving target. For the sake of gameplay, they must rely on stun.
But now stun is being nerfed and tackle doesn't work the way it used to do.

Marines should co-operate together with the tools and ability they have, which are lots. A co-ordinated Marine push and flank is very hard to counter if they co-operate wel.

[Gnorse]

by going down this path, you're pretty much forcing marines to cooperate if they want to win, while xenos can fuck off and do their own thing.
A Marine should be able to win in 1v1 If he's good enough. Asking people to cooperate on SS13 is like asking a fucking third grader to build a space ship.

[BillyBoBBizWorth]

There is no xeno ability that can insta kill a Marine

You could argue that the simple fact that xenoes can target the head(sometimes dont even have to target the head) and slash and you have the chance to instantly dehead the marine and remove the player from the round is infact a ability, whether its in a fancy box on the top left of your xeno HUD or not.As we all know marines cant delimb a xenoe, you can only insta-gib it with heavy explosives and weaponry that are limited in access and numbers.Every xenoe can dehead a human, except for danger noodles.

It's hel difficult to slash a moving target. For the sake of gameplay, they must rely on stun.

Marines should co-operate together with the tools and ability they have, which are lots. A co-ordinated Marine push and flank is very hard to counter if they co-operate wel.

Its also very difficult to hit a moving target with a projectile weapon, especially when the speed of the target is much greater than yourself, so you cant even stick to it like glue and take advantage of patterns in movement that it makes.

Not necessarily, on the "they must rely on stun".They rely on stun because stun is in the game to begin with as a feature, in a bizzaro world where this SS13 was created but with no stun at all, this same server would exist but it would be pure xenoe melee against the humans and pure projectile power/melee against the xenoes.They rely on stun because it is a feature and has been handed to the xenoes as their primary tool.No other reasons.I mean if a xenoe player really wanted to whether they were a good player or not, they could actually play this server against marines without even using a stun, ever! They could literally just use speed and slashing to win, other xenos would still be stunning anyways.Stun is just a bonus, but that bonus has been determining whos wins in SS13 since it was first added.

Marines should obviously be working together and yeah, have great strength when done properly and effectively, that same concept applies to xenoes as well though, so the "marines must use teamwork to win" argument is irrelevant when both sides have to do it just as much as the other side to win generally.The only difference is, because its so easy to kill a marine over a marine killing a xeno for majority of cases, the xenoes dont even have to be working that well together and can still win.That scenario hardly ever could be said for the marines.All it takes for marine loss is bad command or a indiscriminately(FF) firing tanker to have a bad enough weak link that the whole OP goes to shit.Bad queen dies? They just get another one.

Theres much more variables for the marines that will help determine whether the marines win or not, xenoes have about half the amount of variables.Which makes it not only easier to play, but easier to win.Fact.

[NethIafins]

But... But... This is a cooperative game, isn't it?

[Gnorse]

If you consider friendly fire to be cooperative, then yes.

I deadass feel safer by myself than I do with other marines, and that's saying something.

[Dauntasa]

But... But... This is a cooperative game, isn't it?

Yes. Xenos, currently, don't have to, because they have several castes that reliably win 3v1s against marines with pulse rifles.

[nerocavalier]

Those rely on RNG, while shotguns have fixed damage stats that will always work.

What are shots missing? What is armor? What is warding? Before you say anything about PB, I want to point out that marines have to actually click on a fast moving xeno that can pounce away, stun thrm with neurotox, or just you know hold W and yakety sax away.

Also not everyone has those abilitys and there aren't hordes of boilers or ravagers or crushers, neither lurkers, while there are hordes of PFC with shotguns.

You imply that those hordes of PFCs are all capsble of timing buckshot so that they can oneshot the runner speeding by instead of a nearby marine. Marines are more dangerous to each other than xenos.

And yes I agree, xeno rely on stun because they are melee castes. It's hel difficult to slash a moving target. For the sake of gameplay, they must rely on stun.
But now stun is being nerfed and tackle doesn't work the way it used to do.

But xenos get to decide when they engage. They have vents, hivemind, x-ray vision, and either a gap closer that stuns or a ranged takedown that's spammable. Also play medic, get good at healijg marines, then play xeno and delete them while moving.

Marines should co-operate together with the tools and ability they have, which are lots. A co-ordinated Marine push and flank is very hard to counter if they co-operate wel.

Hard to counter is more xeno incompetence. A marine flank can always be countered by just ganking the flank with the queen and some xenos. If the two sides are close enough to reinforce each other before you wipe one out, it's because you were too passive (read: didn't keep the alternate routes scouted, actively stalemating the main flank, etc) and got encircled. If both sides have marine defences, that's your fault for not stopping it earlier.

All you need to destroy a flank is a screech and the words "kill them when I screech".

[Xperia15]

I don't agree that Xenos don't use teamwork. Sure a lurker and runner fucks off and do their own thing, but that's what their purpose is; killing lone marines and ambushing.

A single xeno is supposed to be stronger than a single Marine. That's why marines are always told to stay together, it's in the xeno strength to take on lone targets.

But a group of marines is a different story. Flanks are covered, there is ranged fire from multiple directions, they have support weaponry like grenades, CAS, OB, Tanks.
Use these assets wel and it's a game changer.

Also I'm not trying to say that we should not buff marines. I'm just trying to say that we should buff RIFLES, so they get used more and are more useful.
I just feel like that giving every Marine a weapon that's does so much damage in a single hit is no fun for Xenos.

I found myself playing Marine more than Xenos lately because of the shotguns, and I am playing on CM for around 2 years and mostly only as xeno.

[Gnorse]

shotguns are a risk and reward weapon.

Also, even if you do give everyonr a shotgun, like 10 percent of those people are actually going to use it correctly.
Some of them won't have pump macros, some won't know that buckshot is close range, and some are just trash.
You then end up with the cream-du-top.

On that note : Marines only notice good xenos and bad marines, Xenos only notice good marines and bad xenos.
Good shotgun users are a minority, but because xenos aren't used to actually DYING and NOT BEING ABLE TO KILL A MARINE, they tend to notice them more.

[Xperia15]

Okay I found a clip on YouTube from Spheretecfuture called 'Delta Squad'. I think it is a good example of how underappreciated the pulse rifle is and can actually kill Xenos.

The video is from 11 March 2018, so not too old .

https://youtu.be/N_mpV9zViUs

[BillyBoBBizWorth]

I just feel like that giving every Marine a weapon that's does so much damage in a single hit is no fun for Xenos.

Yeah i get your points, but this one comment i have to point out.

Even though every standard marine has the option of taking a shotgun, even before this reduction in damage, not every marine was using them.Even when it was clearly the best damage dealing weapon and as mentioned before, which i agree with, was mainly being used for the stun capability, the damage was just a bonus.

This got compounded by the introduction of the defender, but mainly the original format of the Warrior that really rustled everyones jimmies.That rustling of our jimmies and the reaction of using mass shotguns hadnt started to fade away in any noticeable way until the M39 ROF change, and now this reduction in damage to help ensure thats the case.

Timeline :

What was i using when quickfires were available on all weapons = M39

What was i using after removal of quickfires basically = M4

What was i using mainly before warrior introduction = M4

What was i using during warrior "grab" epidemic = SHOTGUN

What was i using after the "grab" issue was resolved = M4

What was i using after the decrease in shotgun shell loading time = M4

What was i using after M39 and handgun changes = M39

What was i using after the increase to M4 accuracy/damage = M39

What am i using now after the shotgun damage changes = M39


Out of all the time and opportunities i had to use the shotgun even with it being the clear winner, i wasnt using it.I used it once, and only that one time period because it really was the only effective weapon you could use to survive a round at that time of the warrior grab issue.

The shotgun really was our lord and savior during that period too, can you imagine what the rounds would of been like if we didnt have shotguns available in the state they were back then? It would of been an even bigger biased bloodbath than it already was! No doubt about it.

Im just one example showing and proving to you, just because the shotty was powerful(like it should be) for so long, i still wasnt using it.

So clearly, "not every Marine".

[Gnorse]

Negative. Those M41As you see in the videos are fitted with a QFA. Can't do that anymore.

[nerocavalier]

Okay I found a clip on YouTube from Spheretecfuture called 'Delta Squad'. I think it is a good example of how underappreciated the pulse rifle is and can actually kill Xenos.

The video is from 11 March 2018, so not too old .

https://youtu.be/N_mpV9zViUs

That was when QF was still a thing and Ap for days. Note the very next update.

March 12 2018
Spookydonut updated:
Requisitions crates now increase in price by 8% everytime you order that crate to represent the limited supplies of the Almayer.
dylanstrategie updated:
Halved the amount of rounds available in M41A, M41A AP, and M39 ammo crates.
Increased the cost of M41A AP ammo crates.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

Back then, QF was still available on both M41A and M39.

6 AP mags costed 30 points

One AP ammo box costed 30 points, and filled 800 ammo each box

We had no 8% increase after every order.

Now, with everything above gone, why are you even wondering that M41A is weak now ?

[Xperia15]

Negative. Those M41As you see in the videos are fitted with a QFA. Can't do that anymore.

Welp right, didnt know that.