Update Discussion Thread (August 2018)

[Xperia15]

If they reverted those changes and made QFA available again on pulse rifles, together with AP, would that work?

[Gnorse]

If QFAs came back, I doubt you'd see anyone using shotguns.

[nerocavalier]

No, because xenos utterly got stomped by competent squads back then as shown by the Delta squad with AP.

[Build_R_]

-snip-

I don't think the issue was entirely that option A was too weak, the shotgun was certainly over-powered, its point blank damage when using buckshot was massive, being capable of instantly killing/critting Young-Mature T1s and I believe Young T2s. The slug on the other hand was an almost guaranteed stun, if you had a fellow marine nearby with a rifle or some other weapon that can fire continuously, you could easily take down most T1s simply in a group of two without having to get very close in the first place. The ability to easily kill small xenos on your own simply by standing next to them and clicking once or in a group by hitting them once with a slug at a range certainly seems like too small of a risk to me. Especially so when you consider the much larger amount of marines compared to xenos and how most of those marines will be wielding shotguns, this results in a high reward from a xeno kill. And yes, I understand that only some of them will have much skill with a shotgun but it's rather simple to use in the first place, similar to the pulse rifle. I understand that many, many people here are fans of shotgun however, as the thread shows.

The pulse rifle is viable as is, I believe. It certainly doesn't offer nothing, it's a good choice for damage at a range and can be used as a mini-sniper if you have the rail scope. When a large group is wielding pulse rifles, they're easily able to scare off almost anything that walks up if not kill it whereas if the all used shotguns that would either be a lot of additional buckshot missing the target or a lot of slugs with little damage done to the xenos.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

Also, I kinda like that you used a video back in AP meta, with 90% win rate for marines, and was deemed by many xeno the most frustrating period to play in thanks to a lot of bald queens (queen still had charge back then), bald aliens chewing through larvas, low amount of starting larvas, and marines being actually good enough to crush them (because rounds with bald marines and good hive still resulted in a win for hive); to argue for the M41A's sake.

[Xperia15]

If QFAs came back, I doubt you'd see anyone using shotguns.

This could be a solutions to the whole shotgun problem. I would personally be fine with it because then people will use rifles more than shotguns and you won't have the issue about one shotting Xenos.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

This could be a solutions to the whole shotgun problem. I would personally be fine with it because then people will use rifles more than shotguns and you won't have the issue about one shotting Xenos.

They will never revert a change, not when that change could mean another time for 90% marine win rate.

[Gnorse]

to be completely honest, If the M4s got their QFA back, I wouldn't mind keeping the shotgun damage nerf since it would designate the shotgun as a secondary weapon, which is what it was meant to be.

But as Bex said, that probably won't happen. the amount of updates the devs have reverted over the 4 or so years runtime of this game is in the single digits.

[CABAL]

Okay I found a clip on YouTube from Spheretecfuture called 'Delta Squad'. I think it is a good example of how underappreciated the pulse rifle is and can actually kill Xenos.

The video is from 11 March 2018, so not too old .

https://youtu.be/N_mpV9zViUs

Let's begin!

0:31 - Hivelord stunned by grenade, then killed by Pulse Rifle before getting up.
0:38 - Lurker stunned by unknown reason, dragged, killed by Pulse Rifle beofre getting up.
0:45 - Queen resting during marine push... Seriously? Low HP and killed by Pulse Rifle.
0:56 - Mature Sentinel heavily damaged by smartgun, finished off by Pulse Rifle.
1:20 - Sentinel critted by M39, not even finished off by Pulse Rifle.
1:34 - Heavily wounded Ravager decided to drag sentinel, critted by two burst from Pulse Rifle.

See the patern? Already wounded, or stunned xenos are those who die and pulse rifle is only good for that one. Pulse Rifle is not "underappreciated". Everyone started the game by picking pulse rifle, since it is iconic in movies and it isn't a shit in them. Played few rounds, saw what marines with shotguns can do and I could easly realise that
shotgun > pulse rifle in terms of usefulness. Then played few rounds with buckshot, saw it drawback and I picked slug and I' proud Slug user. Gimme a choice so I can make one, Gimme a Double Barrel with slug so I can pesky Xenos Stun!

Even if you will take ALL damage from slug, I will still use it, why? You all might scratch your head and tiny xenomain brain might not be able to comprehend that utility is more important than raw damage and I don't need getting boner from just killing players, even xenomains. Helping other marines is what makes it great. Not once, or twice Cabal saved random laying marine that was being slashed by lurker, or runner by aimed slug that made them run like a chicken.

I don't agree that Xenos don't use teamwork. Sure a lurker and runner fucks off and do their own thing, but that's what their purpose is; killing lone marines and ambushing.

A single xeno is supposed to be stronger than a single Marine. That's why marines are always told to stay together, it's in the xeno strength to take on lone targets.

But a group of marines is a different story. Flanks are covered, there is ranged fire from multiple directions, they have support weaponry like grenades, CAS, OB, Tanks.
Use these assets wel and it's a game changer.

Also I'm not trying to say that we should not buff marines. I'm just trying to say that we should buff RIFLES, so they get used more and are more useful.
I just feel like that giving every Marine a weapon that's does so much damage in a single hit is no fun for Xenos.

I found myself playing Marine more than Xenos lately because of the shotguns, and I am playing on CM for around 2 years and mostly only as xeno.

Of course they used teamwork. Month back and groups of Warriors and Runners played by killing marines and dragging their defibable corpses deep behind their lines. So much required teamwork.

Group of marines should be countered by group of xenos. Extra! Extra! Local xenomain can't 1vsGroup of marines, becouse it is diffrent story!

Any rational buff of statistic for Pulse Rifle won't be enough, like I writed before it must be something in them that not only affects xeno HP, but also speed, or limbs.

[Herac]

I just don't find the M41A 'weak', I'm able to consistently get kills with it each round and I'm far from robust. Yes, you're not going to solo many xenos with it (though I had, and you can). To me the rifle is just normal, it's the standard by which other weapons are judged.

Instead of reverting the damage on buckshot (though I do think it should be reveted on slug) tighten the spread on the projectiles so it can land multiple hits from 2 or 3 tiles away.

Just making overthing OP sounds like a terrible way of balancing things that will result in new and interesting ways of breaking/exploiting the game.

[Xperia15]

Any rational buff of statistic for Pulse Rifle won't be enough, like I writed before it must be something in them that not only affects xeno HP, but also speed, or limbs.

Adding stuff like limbs to xenos or weapons that affect speed is the dumbest thing I've heard on this thread. It probably has been suggested on the github and it's never implemented because it's shit.

Saying that buffing the pulse rifle wouldn't work is also not true because the nerf on pulse rifles is what made it weaker and why people jumped to shotguns.

[CABAL]

Adding stuff like limbs or weapons that affect speed is the dumbest thing I've heard on this thread. It probably has been suggested on the github and it's never implemented because it's shit .

Saying that buffing the pulse rifle wouldn't work is also not true because the nerf on pulse rifles is what made it weaker and why people jumped to shotguns.

You know... Hehe... Xeno's slash do exactly the same thing. Limbs and speed? To be Xenomain I need to take hypocrisy oath? Or just simply incompetent doctor from Almayer comes to my house and perform lobotomy?

It wouldn't, untill it will crit xenos in two burst. Xeno charging at unarmed marine vs Xeno charging at marine shooting with pulse rifle. Xeno speed unaffected and it's large HP pool grants him ability to withstand that damage like it was a ASG.

[Xperia15]

You seem to completely be out of touch with how mechanics of xenos and the game work. You don't have good ideas and rely on being insulting to make a point, which automatically makes whatever you say irrelevant.
At this point, I'm ignoring you from now on.

[Xperia15]

Instead of reverting the damage on buckshot (though I do think it should be reveted on slug) tighten the spread on the projectiles so it can land multiple hits from 2 or 3 tiles away.

Just making overthing OP sounds like a terrible way of balancing things that will result in new and interesting ways of breaking/exploiting the game.

While I have never used it, but did see it, flechettes hit multiples tiles away. But from what I have heard they have a very low damage output. Maybe buff the damage up from flechettes and include it in the Marine vendors.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

While I have never used it, but did see it, flechettes hit multiples tiles away. But from what I have heard they have a very low damage output. Maybe buff the damage up from flechettes and include it in the Marine vendors.

But how much damage is enough though ? Since Flech doesn't stun or even knock back at all, so either you make its damage too much and we're back to the Buckshot argument, or the damage is not enough and it's just gonna stay as an edge case.

[Steelpoint]

Flechette seems to try to give a mid ground between Buck and Slug, you deal more damage up to longer range and you retain somewhat good accuracy.

However. I find the niche to be something I don't see needing filling. If I'm taking buckshot, I'm taking it to absolutely murder xenos in CQC whereas if I'm taking Slugs I'm using them for their stunning ability to usually save other Marines, or to try and stun a xeno to get gunned down by someone else.

[Herac]

While I have never used it, but did see it, flechettes hit multiples tiles away. But from what I have heard they have a very low damage output. Maybe buff the damage up from flechettes and include it in the Marine vendors.

Disclaimer: I've not run tests and I'm going off memory here

Flech willl make like 5 or 6 projectiles that spread out over 4 or 5 tiles (at the edge of the view) and have low damage output but slight armour pen. (it's meant to be between slug and buck)

Buckshot produces 3 projectiles that have a similar spread and do low damage and have no armour pen. Basically you'll never hit anything at the edge of the screen with buckshot, or if you do even a runner will shrug it off.

It's worth mentioning that spooky never said anything about nerfing flech in the changelog so it's position vis-a-vis buck and slug is now a bit more competative. I personally still really, really want to see an all flech firing line because I have a feeling that the sheer number of projectiles produced will be amazing to see.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

Disclaimer: I've not run tests and I'm going off memory here

Flech willl make like 5 or 6 projectiles that spread out over 4 or 5 tiles (at the edge of the view) and have low damage output but slight armour pen. (it's meant to be between slug and buck)

Buckshot produces 3 projectiles that have a similar spread and do low damage and have no armour pen. Basically you'll never hit anything at the edge of the screen with buckshot, or if you do even a runner will shrug it off.

It's worth mentioning that spooky never said anything about nerfing flech in the changelog so it's position vis-a-vis buck and slug is now a bit more competative. I personally still really, really want to see an all flech firing line because I have a feeling that the sheer number of projectiles produced will be amazing to see.

Why a firing line of flech when a firing line of slug will threaten any stun-able xeno to ever come in sight range ? Like we meme about Slug's damage being shit a lot, but it's not bad as M4's (without AP), and you can get pass the anti-stunlock mechanic (weird thing to add, but OK) with enough slugs

[spookydonut]

Non ap ammo rifle burst does more damage than pre change buckshot with more armor penetration but the bullet scatter makes it harder to hit things even at close range compared to buckshot.
We might look at reducing/removing scatter from rifle, upping accuracy and decreasing damage, like buff it to the point of almost always hitting but the damage requiring multiple rifles to be effective at range, with shotguns remaining the king of short range combat.
I mean it doesn't take a genius to see why scatter was added to rifles with their potential for huge amounts of damage.
Single shots should never scatter and things like stocks and vert grips should make a burst not scatter at all if you're standing still, with the obvious drawbacks those attachments have.
Tldr; we're probably going to have to buff the rifle more and might rebuff buckshot a bit but it's going to be small tweaks over time.

I do want to thank everyone for their feedback on the changes as it has helped a lot to see things we've missed and areas we haven't looked at in terms of weapons balance.

[BillyBoBBizWorth]

I do want to thank everyone for their feedback on the changes as it has helped a lot to see things we've missed and areas we haven't looked at in terms of weapons balance.

Great stuff, good on ya everyone!

[CABAL]

You seem to completely be out of touch with how mechanics of xenos and the game work. You don't have good ideas and rely on being insulting to make a point, which automatically makes whatever you say irrelevant.
At this point, I'm ignoring you from now on.

Just becouse I'm salty and I'm using general insults about Xenomains makes whatever I say irrelevant? Pardon me, mister, I would never want to insult anybody. As a pure blood englishman with royal ancestry and with great spelling I simply can not let this happen again. Saying my idea was dumbest on this thread was not an insult, it's just honest truth and xenomains are handsome, fabulous and always logical.
Fun fact: JC mained Xenos, but after nerf for marines he said that he likes his wins to be earned.
Fun fact 2: If Newton would insult somebody at daily basic, now we would float in air, becouse everything he said about gravity would be irrelevant.

Now I remember that slash from xenos gives boost to speed for victim marine and heals limb damage. Once even ravager jumped on me and my hand growed back. Silly me.

And yes, I'm out of touch with xenos on their side, becouse I don't play them. All I know is what I experienced as marine.

[NethIafins]

Calm down and don't insult each other

[Herac]

Why a firing line of flech when a firing line of slug will threaten any stun-able xeno to ever come in sight range ? Like we meme about Slug's damage being shit a lot, but it's not bad as M4's (without AP), and you can get pass the anti-stunlock mechanic (weird thing to add, but OK) with enough slugs

With flech you physically don't need to aim, my idea being 7 marines firing flech at the same time, facing the same direction should filll the screen with something like 20-30 projectiles that spread out and cover pretty much every tile on the middle marine's screen.

It would probably never work because good luck getting 7 people to take the right load out and stand in a straight line, but that's the kind of team work I'd like to see.

Tldr; we're probably going to have to buff the rifle more and might rebuff buckshot a bit but it's going to be small tweaks over time.

I do want to thank everyone for their feedback on the changes as it has helped a lot to see things we've missed and areas we haven't looked at in terms of weapons balance.

So less damage but less spread so it evens out as about the same average damage/slightly higer? To be honest that seems pretty reasonable, I always felt like it was a little iffy that the main battle rilfe needed attachments to fire perfectly straight when it wasn't on burst.

You're welcome, keep up the good work man.

[Casany]

Sounds good

I just still don’t know why people keep complaining about a buckshot oneshot when you have to be literally in CQC range to get it off.

I’ve literally said this like four times, it isn’t the weapon that’s OP, it’s the skill on the xeno side that is lacking. If you don’t see a person holding a shotgun, right next to you, or you see them but don’t react that’s on you. Like I said xenos have so many tools to stop this but apparently they don’t like using them in this case.

TLDR; Shotguns aren’t OP, xenos just aren’t competent.

[Simo94]

Non ap ammo rifle burst does more damage than pre change buckshot with more armor penetration but the bullet scatter makes it harder to hit things even at close range compared to buckshot.
We might look at reducing/removing scatter from rifle, upping accuracy and decreasing damage, like buff it to the point of almost always hitting but the damage requiring multiple rifles to be effective at range, with shotguns remaining the king of short range combat.
I mean it doesn't take a genius to see why scatter was added to rifles with their potential for huge amounts of damage.
Single shots should never scatter and things like stocks and vert grips should make a burst not scatter at all if you're standing still, with the obvious drawbacks those attachments have.
Tldr; we're probably going to have to buff the rifle more and might rebuff buckshot a bit but it's going to be small tweaks over time.

I do want to thank everyone for their feedback on the changes as it has helped a lot to see things we've missed and areas we haven't looked at in terms of weapons balance.

Another alternative for tweaking M41A is completely removing bullet scatter and replacing it with bullet missing/deflecting chance (when the bullet effectively lands on the target but it RNG misses) that accuracy attachments can help lower, that way its less frustrating to use the rifle as all your bullets go exactly where you clicked and we atleast wont FF as much anymore since stray bullets were one of the main reasons for it.

------------------------

On an unrelated note, I HaB a SuGgEsTiOn! what would you people think if they removed the T2 slots cap, but only T2, meaning all T1s can become T2 if they want, its a healthy way of buffing xenos instead of nerfing marines and it also gives xeno side more freedom to choose a caste since one of the most frustrating things when playing xeno side is being stuck as a T1.