Survivor Rules: Thor's trial

[Dauntasa]

Unbiased PoV: In the past, monkey killing was not allowed since it disrupted the balance of the game, how that holds up today I'm not entirely sure. Assuming this rule is still in effect, this was a legitimate ban if we go by the book.

Besides that, it's silly to me.

There's like, 10 billion smallhosts on every map and xeno starting population is huge. Combine this with the fact that survivors are, generally, fucked and I feel like any rules like this are pointless: even completely unshackled survivors are rarely going to be able to deal any significant damage to the aliens, so why bother shackling them?

[ThesoldierLLJK]

So retro-active punishment is now a thing for CM? That doesn't sound right.

No its not anything retro-active.
Here ill give you the simple play by play

Queen sees Thor as a survivor kill a farwa, and ahelps it. I get the ahelp, go to investigate it, pull some logs and see he did indeed fill a farwa with buckshot from a shotgun. Went to go PM thor to speak with him and he logs off, so I tell everyone in staff chat whats going on. An admin says that it is a violation and as he logged off to issue a ban. Another mod decides to speak with Thor on discord to get the other side of the story, and at that time I had to proceed and handle something at my job (Dude threatening to jump off a overpass if anyone cares) so I turned it over to that mod. As far as I know another admin was involved and it was determined to be a rule break and a ban was issued.

There's no conspiracy here.

[Asmodius]

also, i never got pm'ed. i logged back in like 15-20m later and got 1440'ed. it was dropped down to 3 hours after discussion with the admin who had banned me but, still.

[Sleepy Retard]

There's like, 10 billion smallhosts on every map and xeno starting population is huge. Combine this with the fact that survivors are, generally, fucked and I feel like any rules like this are pointless: even completely unshackled survivors are rarely going to be able to deal any significant damage to the aliens, so why bother shackling them?

You're talking to the wrong person about this rule. I find it silly but have to and will enforce it nonetheless. You're gonna have to make a gitlab or bring it up with head staff, big guy.

[Torrentia]

Someone should put all these rulings somewhere public so we know do's and don'ts.

Also: don't look at my logs. I may have killed a monkey before!

[NethIafins]

Right. Let's get step by step:
1) Killing monkeys (or other "smallhosts") is not okay for gameplay reasons. If you could've, you could just go around and kill 5-10 smallhosts effectively denying 5-10 aliens, which are currently still worth about 1-2 marines *each* (edited). Basically even non-robust survivor can be as effective as a specialist in this case
2) Killing monkeys is not okay for story reasons. Aliens by the story are simply not known for hatching from *non* (edited) humans. On all maps you see a lot of hatched humans and ZERO hatched monkeys, which assumes that aliens switch to smallhosts out of sheer necessity, and they started doing it only now.
3) Yeah, let's be honest, survivors are not supposed to "hurt the hive" since the round will suck for marines to deploy and see a handicapped hive against them.
4) We do not deadmin to play queen/CO since we may have to deal with admin stuff while others are busy. We NEVER handle our own ahelps except in few rare cases in which we never ban or note.
5) Your notes are not good, but it seems to be only glancing factor in the ban and the ban is bare minimum 3h
6) I do want to know who told you it is fine to kill monkeys as survivor without directly seeing them hatch (or MAYBE seeing them being dragged), because that mod needs to be talked with

if you have any more questions - ask ahead

[awan]

If I get asked to do so I will give my personal reasoning on why this is against the rules.
But I expect 10 staff members to come in here and give it anyways.

However afaik it is against the rules hence I ahelped when I saw it.
If I was not the queen and I saw it action would still have been taken by me depending on the situation.
There was no push from me for any sort of punishment for this I did suggest that they aheal the farwa.

I am a bit upset that you got told I was the one who ahelped it as this does not matter.
All ahelps are valid and should be handled normally.
We do not reveal to players who ahelped about them so idk why this was done now.
Double because it puts me in a bad light when there was 0 reason too as I have kept myself mostly uninvolved.
(I have checked the logs quickly using some queries to see if 1.2.3. I could find any mod telling you it was ok to do so. That was done during the round.)

[NethIafins]

So by your logic I can now buckshot marines because it deals jackshit of damage?

The balance was for recent marine and xeno changes, not for monkey population and stuff, which for time remained unchanged

[Grimcad]

So the way I've always played it, is that it is against the rules for survivors to kill monkeys, but unless they show a habit of killing monkeys, or of power gaming as a survivor in general, its more of a slap on the wrist charge. If survivors go up and tell marines the situation its alright for marines to kill/capture monkeys of their own accord, should they come across them, but not to specifically go out and target every place where the monkeys usually spawn. Although lets be honest by the time the marines get ground side all the monkeys should be already captured.

[Torrentia]

Right. Let's get step by step:
1) Killing monkeys (or other "smallhosts") is not okay for gameplay reasons. If you could've, you could just go around and kill 5-10 smallhosts effectively denying 5-10 aliens, which are currently still worth about 1-2 marines. Basically even non-robust survivor can be as effective as a specialist in this case
2) Killing monkeys is not okay for story reasons. Aliens by the story are simply not known for hatching from humans. On all maps you see a lot of hatched humans and ZERO hatched monkeys, which assumes that aliens switch to smallhosts out of sheer necessity, and they started doing it only now.
3) Yeah, let's be honest, survivors are not supposed to "hurt the hive" since the round will suck for marines to deploy and see a handicapped hive against them.
4) We do not deadmin to play queen/CO since we may have to deal with admin stuff while others are busy. We NEVER handle our own ahelps except in few rare cases in which we never ban or note.
5) Your notes are not good, but it seems to be only glancing factor in the ban and the ban is bare minimum 3h
6) I do want to know who told you it is fine to kill monkeys as survivor without directly seeing them hatch (or MAYBE seeing them being dragged), because that mod needs to be talked with

if you have any more questions - ask ahead

1) He killed ONE alien.

2) Yes but if you witness a xeno dragging a monkey you could easily come to this conclusion. Also in parts of the maps there's monkeys held in cages near tanks with huggers in them so logically one could jump to the possibility. Also if you spawn in as a survivor scientist.

3) I was queen on Big Red once and the survivors holed up in tcomms and killed FOUR disobedient xenos. I ahelped the xenos, not the survivors for surviving. This severely hurt the hive, but it wasn't the fault of the survivors.

4) This seems like a conflict of interest seeing as it gives you meta information but I can't contend with this since I'm sure it's always been this way.

5) Does he have a precedent of killing monkeys? If he was warned in the past this is completely understandable.

6) Once a staff told me that turning off night vision was "powergaming" as xeno. So staff can say some wild things.

[Asmodius]

the farwa was closer to being my way than out of it, i took out a roadblock because i was being chased by a defender. I've never gone out of my way to kill wildlife, I was getting chased by a defender who seemed to be hellbent on me, rather than the other survivor, so, I'm going to destroy everything in my way to escape it.

[NethIafins]

1) He killed ONE alien.

2) Yes but if you witness a xeno dragging a monkey you could easily come to this conclusion. Also in parts of the maps there's monkeys held in cages near tanks with huggers in them so logically one could jump to the possibility. Also if you spawn in a survivor scientist.

3) I was Queen on Big Red once and the survivors holed up in tcomms and killed FOUR disobedient xenos. I ahelped the xenos, not the survivors for surviving.

4) This seems like a conflict of interest seeing as it gives you meta information but I can't contend with this since I'm sure it's always been this way.

5) Does he have a precedent of killing monkeys? If he was warned in the past this is completely understandable.

6) Once a staff told me that turning off night vision was "powergaming" as xeno. So staff can say wild things some times.

1) He broke a rule still
2) As I said, I imagine that he might've seen it, but during the questioning that wasn't his point. Scientists probably don't know about aliens hatching in monkeys, since what is the point of having a whole colony of humans getting executed while you can basically buy a fuckton of monkeys (except PETA won't love you, but they euthanize animals anyways)
3) You (or your dumb xenos) attacked them, we are talking about the opposite situation. Survivors being effective in offense against defenseless creatures that are there to provide population to xenos.
4) Staff members that abuse OOC information may find themselves not being staff members anymore. We have high standards with this kind of metainfo and expect some kind of separation of OOC and IC parts of staff members. Most RPG boardgame players have this skill.
5) We warn about monkey killing in OOC relatively often, and I'm here to explain ruling in general and not this particular case in detail. As far as I know, he had been told.
6) Yes, you should tell us via reports or other means about incidents like this, although I see where this line of thought may be coming (even tho it is wrong)

[awan]

1) He killed ONE alien.

2) Yes but if you witness a xeno dragging a monkey you could easily come to this conclusion. Also in parts of the maps there's monkeys held in cages near tanks with huggers in them so logically one could jump to the possibility. Also if you spawn in as a survivor scientist.

3) I was queen on Big Red once and the survivors holed up in tcomms and killed FOUR disobedient xenos. I ahelped the xenos, not the survivors for surviving. This severely hurt the hive, but it wasn't the fault of the survivors.

4) This seems like a conflict of interest seeing as it gives you meta information but I can't contend with this since I'm sure it's always been this way.

5) Does he have a precedent of killing monkeys? If he was warned in the past this is completely understandable.

6) Once a staff told me that turning off night vision was "powergaming" as xeno. So staff can say some wild things.

1. No he killed a farwa. And everything that hypothetically came from it. So all the other hosts that one awesome robust xeno would have captured and we would have used to get more hosts. It is a huge pyramid scheme. And a rule break like neth and others said.

2. It is impossible to enforce saying it is ok as long as you do not go out to hunt them. We want survivors to focus on surviving not on going out hunting survivors. If you say it is ok to kill them as long as you are not hunting them you are making a huge grey area that is very subjective. And if you give an exact number many survivors will kill exactly that number and that makes no sense either. It is a lose-lose situation. The no killing is just easier to enforce.

3. If they dont listen then you can ahelp and that is indeed the xeno's. But removing pipes as survivors is also iffy and has been ruled both ways by different people. One situation is not the other. And these are very different imo.

4. Yes, staff does get /some/ meta information. But staff is expected to deal with it best they can. Even observers who turn into xeno's have meta information. I have often suspected if an observer knew I was in a locker became an alien and caught me. And something like that will likely have happened in the past of cm. COC never says you cannot handle your own stuff. But it is just common sense. If you dare do expect to have it examined closely and perhaps be removed if it is even slightly wrong.

5. I dont have to warn every player for every single thing. If you get a lot of notes for a lot of things it will impact things that are related to other rules.

6. If you disagree you can post on the forums or make a staff report.

[NethIafins]

the farwa was closer to being my way than out of it, i took out a roadblock because i was being chased by a defender. I've never gone out of my way to kill wildlife, I was getting chased by a defender who seemed to be hellbent on me, rather than the other survivor, so, I'm going to destroy everything in my way to escape it.

I mean if you said to admin "this creature was in my way of escaping and pushed me" you could've had less problems.

I would let it slide if I was able to proof it.

But it seems your defense was "Mod told me I could do that"

[Sir Lordington]

Of course,your note history, your repeated claims that a moderator told you it was fine despite logdiving showing nothing of the sort and your story changing twice, the fact that you disconnected, and that the ban was lowered to three hours are unimportant details that are best left unmentioned.

You don't like a rule? Make a discussion thread.
You have issue with the actions of a staff member? Staff reports forum is this way viewforum.php?f=118

This is neither of those but a post geared towards inciting drama. The only reason I'm not locking this is because I was the one who applied the ban.

[NethIafins]

3. If they dont listen then you can ahelp and that is indeed the xeno's. But removing pipes as survivors is also iffy and has been ruled both ways by different people. One situation is not the other. And these are very different imo.

Same stuff bruva. Removing pipes is defense, killing smallhosts is offense.

Survivors are here to survive (i.e. defensive actions)

[Torrentia]

If you could've, you could just go around and kill 5-10 smallhosts effectively denying 5-10 aliens, which are currently still worth about 1-2 marines. Basically even non-robust survivor can be as effective as a specialist in this case

No he killed a farwa. And everything that hypothetically came from it. So all the other hosts that one awesome robust xeno would have captured and we would have used to get more hosts. It is a huge pyramid scheme. And a rule break like neth and others said.

I'm slip-slip sliding down a slope here.

[Torrentia]

Oh it was Lordington. Now it all makes sense. Also, he did start a discussion thread, we are discussing rulings and things about survivors.

Survivors are here to survive (i.e. defensive actions)

Maybe this should be added as a written rule then.

[NethIafins]

I'm slip-slip sliding down a slope here.

I was talking about mass hunting smallhosts, Awan was talking about killing single smallhost

[awan]

At 1 I was talking about 1 host. At 2 about hunting them.

[Asmodius]

i logged off after i died, logged back in and i got banned. no admin ever pm'ed me over discord. i had no knowledge anything was going on until i logged on and got banned

the last time i had gotten in trouble for killing wildlife was my first-ish day of CM, march 31, 2017. SL said the wildlife was hostile and i stabbed a monkey. i immediately got 1440'ed, no notes, warning, bans prior ever. thats a bit harsh, dont you think?

and it says plural as well, MONKIES. I was literally standing in cargo on LV around my squad and all seven of us were stabbing the same monkey and i dont know if they all got banned for it, but, i did.

[NethIafins]

i logged off after i died, logged back in and i got banned. no admin ever pm'ed me over discord. i had no knowledge anything was going on until i logged on and got banned.

If we PM you and you logged off, we apply ban without PMing. We don't have a system that launches an alarm every time a guy that we are about to ban for absence has just joined

[Torrentia]

Thesolider said that a moderator PMed Thor.

[Sleepy Retard]

You know I remain unbiased in these things Thor. You had Kavlo and myself telling you that you were going to be banned. Let's not lie. You were informed what was happening

[NethIafins]

the last time i had gotten in trouble for killing wildlife was my first-ish day of CM, march 31, 2017. SL said the wildlife was hostile and i stabbed a monkey. i immediately got 1440'ed, no notes, warning, bans prior ever. thats a bit harsh, dont you think?

We had harsher ban system and ... ahem... management before