Smartgunner needs a buff?

[Boersgard]

I've been playing SG for awhile and getting a feel for how it plays in game, I've seen a number of players who said SG's suck and thought I'd share my experience with it.

SG's suck. They're definitely not supposed to be rambo, but they also fail pretty bad in their support role.
I'll go over quickly the issues I've had with SG:

1. Input Lag
2. Low Damage
3. Short Range, poor accuracy
4. Awful Upgrades
5. No Ammo


1. Input Lag

Wielding the smartgun has some kind of cumbersome delay when you dual-hand it to fire, this means the smartgun is only able to engage in 'fights' that last at least 3-5 seconds when the squad is moving - very very often what happens is a marine up front gets knocked over, you hit the wield button and the smartgun doesn't go into both hands, you mash the button again a few times until it does, now you click to fire and nothing happens, you click a second, third time it finally fires, the marine is already dragged off.

This is a problem which I'm not sure is even intentional or just how BYOND works. It, in effect, forces a short delay on a smartgunner going hot in a fight - I don't necessarily disagree with it, my problem is that there's no tradeoff you get in exchange for being cumbersome and it directly impacts the smartgunners' current ability to provide covering fire while a squad moves fast.



2. Low Damage

The smartgun is not a highly mobile, highly accurate LMG; it feels like a peashooter. It has poor accuracy and low damage per hit. You will never kill anything with a smartgun which wasn't already going to die for other reasons, and a lot of xenos players will laugh and facetank through SG burstfires - it doesn't serve its appropriate role as fire support/cover fire for the squad because xenos are not scared of it, and they're not scared of it because it doesn't hurt them. This isn't a big problem early-game but mid-late game when the bigger xenos come out, you might as well just throw your gun away. It's the worst part of the game to be a smartgunner and the point where AP would help the most.

There's a number of ways to tackle this. Greater utility to offset low damage (e.g. cumulative stun damage), increase the damage by increasing RoF, accuracy, or damage per bullet, or a number of these together. Since the SG suffers the most in the lategame, I personally think the right approach is buffing accuracy and giving the smartgunner AP ammo by default. The point of which is to improve long-range covering fire and its damage against late game threats which it can't deter at all right now. Even if it's intended that the SG be deterrence - you can't deter if you can't kill. If a xeno doesn't feel threatened he's going to push despite an SG providing covering fire making it entirely moot. Shotguns are more deterrence than an SG at the moment, and far more available than the SG is.



3. Short Range, poor accuracy

The smartgun is too inaccurate for long range fire, and it gets so bad with the barrel charger or burst fire adaptor that attaching either makes the gun useless past 3-5 tiles. It's a problem that hurts the SG's ability to actually cover his squad, as damage application drops off severely over distance yet you're intended to stay behind everyone to cover them. In effect you only see maybe 2-3 tiles past them, and can only kind of hurt something standing on them, making it impossible to provide good covering fire. You're way too reactive and don't do enough damage to be a threat.

This is where the motion detector becomes probably the single best tool a smartgunner can have in his arsenal and why I think it needs to be on the smartgunner by default. The motion pings gives you extremely important information on where to shoot and what direction to cover and this one item basically fixes half the issue with SG's providing covering fire in the game right now (The other half primarily being low damage output) while also fitting the class thematically as the support role. Give the SG a motion detector and he can actually lay down covering fire to help marines fighting threats he can't actually see. This one thing is so important for the SG that if nothing else was done to buff them but this, this would be the buff to give. It's a gamechanger for SG and I highly recommend anyone who hasn't tried it yet to play SG with a motion detector.



4. Awful Upgrades

The two upgrades the SG has available: Barrel Charger and Burst Fire Adapter, hurt the already poor accuracy so badly that you can no longer effectively use the SG. Then on top of it, the increased damage output still doesn't make the smartgun dangerous or threatening. You can have both of these upgrades and go full ham on something right in front of you and at best it will just moonwalk away from your attempted death by tickling. Once the xeno is outside ~5 tiles it really doesn't have any reason to worry at all due to the increadibly poor accuracy, and can freely kill you with pounce/charge/spit attacks. In the end the best upgrade for the SG is no upgrade at all.

The big reason the upgrades suck so much stems from the SG being too inaccurate to begin with, so the upgrades turn it into something only useful at shotgun ranges - which... why not just use a shotgun then? The SG is for covering fire / fire support, it's not supposed to be used at shotgun ranges, it can't cover a squad at shotgun ranges, it doesn't do enough damage to use it at shotgun ranges anyways, and if you try to use it at shotgun ranges you will die; if you want a close range weapon use a shotgun. So either the base accuracy and damage of the smartgun needs a buff, the upgrades themselves need a buff, or they both need a buff. Because right now if you're putting either (let alone both) upgrades on the gun, you're actually just hurting yourself.



5. No Ammo

The SG does not come with nearly enough ammo. Especially if you use it in burst fire, and especially especially if you add the BFA attachment. This really wouldn't be such a big problem if the SG was actually dangerous to xenos, but it isn't. It's low-damage but still constrained with a very small ammo pool that every other marine doesn't have to worry about, and to make it worse, there's no real way for the SG to carry additional ammo into a fight. He can't wear two powerpacks, nobody else is going to be your pack mule, and carrying a second one yourself destroys your ability to quickly engage or disengage and generally interferes with fighting entirely.

The SG's ammo pool doesn't strictly need to change - if it deals more damage - but in the current state of affairs where you're forced to spray an inaccurate peashooter LMG all day just to, maybe, deter a xeno from pushing? It's not enough. Doubling the powerpack's capacity would put the SG on even footing with the rest of the squad in staying power. Low ammo should be a tradeoff for being dangerous, so either the LMG does the damage it does now, but has way more ammo, or it has the ammo it does now, but does way more damage. Right now it's in a bad place where it has low ammo AND it's a peashooter.



RECAP:
Smartgunners could use some buffs, here's a list of options for improving them:

- Give him a motion detector
- Increase his accuracy
- Give him AP
- Make the gun upgrades worth using
- Give him more ammo

[Justicer3792]

You should probably post in on the github, otherwise the spooky will close this down.

[Boersgard]

In addition to this thread, or in place of it?

Are balance discussions allowed on the forums?

[Solarmare]

There's nothing preventing them in particular, suggestions are just considered on the gitlab. There might also be other issues taking precedence so it can take a while for something like this as well, such as marines being too advantaged as is currently or such.

[lurkermain]

>SG doesnt have enough damage
No..
>Stun damage
No.
>AP ammo by default
NO. Actually if AP worked in a non-retarded manner in the game (as in, doing damage to tough targets too instead of instakilling weaker xenos) this would be ok..

If you are firing alone as a smartgunner, the squad made a mistake. It's like saying runners need to be buffed because they dont do enough damage.
Smartguns are meant to be used tactically. Also, you have NV which is pretty good..

Tracer rounds could be a fun buff but I'm not sure the CM backend can handle lights moving that fast..

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

>SG doesnt have enough damage
No..
>Stun damage
No.
>AP ammo by default
NO. Actually if AP worked in a non-retarded manner in the game (as in, doing damage to tough targets too instead of instakilling weaker xenos) this would be ok..

If you are firing alone as a smartgunner, the squad made a mistake. It's like saying runners need to be buffed because they dont do enough damage.
Smartguns are meant to be used tactically. Also, you have NV which is pretty good..

Tracer rounds could be a fun buff but I'm not sure the CM backend can handle lights moving that fast..

Actually they don't have NVG. Just Meson

[Boersgard]

Smartguns are meant to be used tactically.

Can you please go into more detail about how they're supposed to be used?

[lurkermain]

Actually they don't have NVG. Just Meson

I see, my experience was that usually they spot lurkers even in dark areas, but I still think it is a powerful thing to have.

Can you please go into more detail about how they're supposed to be used?

It has IFF. You use it to fire from behind others and focus fire things. Being able to fire through crowds is a clear advantage and if it had the same damage as non-IFF weapons it would be clearly superior. So yes, it does less damage, but the combined damage output of the squad ends up being higher. That's my opinion at least.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

I see, my experience was that usually they spot lurkers even in dark areas, but I still think it is a powerful thing to have.

They either do that by them having a motion detector on their belt, or the lurker was on a lit tile, no matter how dim the light is. Also, the red filter over the meson can actually kill your eyes, so most SGs don't have them on all the time.

[Dolth]

Meson googles allows you to see structures and all in night and will show you items/mobs if it has at least 1 unit of light.

Now for the 56B even if it's support and meant to be behind you don't have enough accuracy nor enough ammo to do a big difference. Even if the damages are low you should be able to hit at 5 fucking tiles 100% sure AT LEAST. Otherwise you're just uselessly suppressing with a mag SMALLER THAN AN EXTENDED 41A WOW SUCH LMG MUCH GR8. 56B used to be a spec, now it's useless. I'd rather have a shotgunner behind me in case I get pounced than a SG that won't kill a crusher with a full mag.

(PS: Stop using burst and BC you morrons)

[Gnorse]

the SG completely, totally and utterly fails at performing its intended role and this is coming from an (former) SG main.
It's a literal waste of a slot. I'd rather join in as a PFC.

[ThesoldierLLJK]

Wasn't the point of the SG to stand behind two marines already firing to add that third line of suppressing fire and additional damage?

[Avalanchee]

Damage is horrible
>Boom a BC!
Firing Delays, Wield Delays, Garbage Accuracy
>Boom remove the BC!
Damage is horrible

[Renomaki]

Wasn't the point of the SG to stand behind two marines already firing to add that third line of suppressing fire and additional damage?

Yes, this is indeed the point. Smartgunners aren't supposed to be one man armies, they are heavily reliant on other marines to maximize their damage.

On their own, Smartgunners just can't dish out the pain all that effectively, due to their gun lacking damage output compared to the Pulse Rifle. The trade-off, of course, is the fact that they can fire freely at any target they see thanks to IFF features in their gun, as well as have a minor night vision that allows them to see targets in the dark that marines might miss, making them a great counter to skirmishing xenos harassing from the shadows.

However, despite the advantages and tactical options a smartgun provides, most people look down upon it because it isn't a "I win" button. Said "buttons" being buckshot shotguns and the RPG.

If you can't kill a xeno the second it comes into view, it is considered a shit weapon. SMGs, Slug shotguns, smartguns, even the PULSE RIFLE get looked down upon and mocked simply because a xeno is able to survive a solo encounter with a marine armed with said weapons. Nevermind the concept of focused fire, or the fact that not every gun has to KILL to do their job (for instance, the MG42, a legendary machinegun, wasn't quite all that accurate. It was more feared for its suppressive capabilities than it's killing power).

The few times I managed to get smartgun, I never had ammo issues or felt the gun was underpowered. But that was because I understood it's strengths and weaknesses, just like any weapon in the game. You can't just expect to rambo with any weapon and expect to come out with half a dozen kills by round end (unless you either get stupidly lucky or are just that robust).

People need to stop charging to the front of the pack with a smartgun and complaining about their gun not killing fast enough, and instead learn to properly utilize their weapon and manage their ammo better instead of leaving it on burst and wasting ammo.

[dasWurmtMich]

All it needs is a slight damage, accuracy and maybe armor pen increase. Slightly lower the wield delay and increase ammo to 100 in the gun and 500 in the powerpack. Boom problems fixed.

Allowing more attachments would also be a nice way to fix the problem.

[immaspaceninja]

The only thing that bothers me about the SG is that he doesn't feel like a guy with a machinegun.
He has 50 rounds "mags" while the rifle is only 10 rounds behind.
The ammo cap of 300 rounds is just not enough. A fucking PFC can carry more m41 ammo without taking any sort of backpack/mag pouches/webbing.
Give him 3 times more ammo and we'll talk.

[Dolth]

Reno, jesus.

I can't answer to all your stuff as I am lazy abd typing on a tiny phone.

But jeez if you 'understand' how SG works then do you understand that a SG behind 2 marines shooting at a xeno at 2 to 3 tiles (which is almost danger close) is shooting at 4 to 5 tiles already?

4 to 5 tiles with a 56B means you won't hit shit with a BC because of spread AND accuracy even on single fire.
Means you will miss MOST of your shots without BC.
And hit with probably just the first or maybe second of a burst.

That's just suppression and visual taunting.

SG needs more accuracy. Not necessary spread reduction. Just accuracy to actually help denying areas by shooting. And not just miserably missing at 5 tiles.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

A reminder that SG has some crazy amount of damage falloff. Trying to hit shit at the edge of the screen will mean that you're spending more and more ammo for less and less damage (WHICH IS WHAT YOU LOTS KEEP GOING ON AND ON ABOUT "SG STANDING BEHIND 2 OR 3 MARINES" BY THE WAY). And your base accuracy and damage isn't enough for BC to help.

Covering fire and "suppressive fire" generally don't work, simple as that. If the xeno doesn't get finished off, nothing stops it from just heal up to full without any permanent injuries or debuffs. The bulk of the damage is from M41 users, with or without AP; and we're talking about range combat since Cuckshot is known enough by now.

We're asking for multiple stuff, and even if only 5% of the suggestions make it, SG will be a much better role. More ammo (one PFC with an SMG ammo belt beats your powerpack by the way), less delays (holster+wield+click delays by the way), more damage (you have the same damage as a non AP SMG by the way, considering falloff damage, which you should look at my first point), no red filter in the meson vision (which actually hurts your eyes by the way and that's why I don't use it unless I'm like deep in combat), more utility (either stick a motion detector on the M56 by default, or some other thing)..... and more.

If I need to be an "SG main" to even be qualified to talk about this shit, hey, guess what? I've played SG constantly for 2 weeks that one time and even now I still have my SG roll on so that I can play it. I know how much it eats through ammo. I know how much its damage sucks. I know how much its delays suck. I KNOW HOW MUCH IT SUCK THAT TO RELOAD YOU HAVE TO STAND STILL FOR 6 SECONDS WITHOUT YOU BEING ABLE TO DO ANYTHING ELSE.

[Avalanchee]

I just take SG to roll a PFC loadout with NVGs, that's how trash it is

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

I want to remind people that SG's goggles are meson, not night vision

[RuAlastor]

Yes, this is indeed the point. Smartgunners aren't supposed to be one man armies, they are heavily reliant on other marines to maximize their damage.

On their own, Smartgunners just can't dish out the pain all that effectively, due to their gun lacking damage output compared to the Pulse Rifle. The trade-off, of course, is the fact that they can fire freely at any target they see thanks to IFF features in their gun, as well as have a minor night vision that allows them to see targets in the dark that marines might miss, making them a great counter to skirmishing xenos harassing from the shadows.

However, despite the advantages and tactical options a smartgun provides, most people look down upon it because it isn't a "I win" button. Said "buttons" being buckshot shotguns and the RPG.

If you can't kill a xeno the second it comes into view, it is considered a shit weapon. SMGs, Slug shotguns, smartguns, even the PULSE RIFLE get looked down upon and mocked simply because a xeno is able to survive a solo encounter with a marine armed with said weapons. Nevermind the concept of focused fire, or the fact that not every gun has to KILL to do their job (for instance, the MG42, a legendary machinegun, wasn't quite all that accurate. It was more feared for its suppressive capabilities than it's killing power).

The few times I managed to get smartgun, I never had ammo issues or felt the gun was underpowered. But that was because I understood it's strengths and weaknesses, just like any weapon in the game. You can't just expect to rambo with any weapon and expect to come out with half a dozen kills by round end (unless you either get stupidly lucky or are just that robust).

People need to stop charging to the front of the pack with a smartgun and complaining about their gun not killing fast enough, and instead learn to properly utilize their weapon and manage their ammo better instead of leaving it on burst and wasting ammo.

If you didn't have ammo issues with smartgun, probably you did something wrong. It's not about "win button". Mostly, when you're persuing benos as SG with your squad, you don't get a chance to shoot because of wield delay, and when you're defending cades, you can't do "covering fire" as you can shoot only for 3 tiles accurately from cade, everything else doesn't do any damage. The only thing SG is good is finishing benos, when they're on your teammate. The only way to play SG now is to through it into a trashcan, grab a m41 with AP and to be a PFC with better vision.

[DefinitelyAlone0309]

If you didn't have ammo issues with smartgun, probably you did something wrong. It's not about "win button". Mostly, when you're persuing benos as SG with your squad, you don't get a chance to shoot because of wield delay, and when you're defending cades, you can't do "covering fire" as you can shoot only for 3 tiles accurately from cade, everything else doesn't do any damage. The only thing SG is good is finishing benos, when they're on your teammate. The only way to play SG now is to through it into a trashcan, grab a m41 with AP and to be a PFC with better vision.

They also don't have any IFF protection from barricades, when they're supposed to be behind at least 1 marine in a firing line. Covering fire after a boiler bombard is useless, because your shots will be blocked by the cades, and any damage you manage to do is negated by falloff damage.

Imagine, the SG doesn't have IFF protection from barricades, when SADAR and sentries have.

[MattAtlas]

SG needs more ammo (100/400), less falloff and more armour penetration + barricade IFF

that's it, that's everything it needs

also remove cancer red overlay

[Dolth]

SG needs more ammo (100/400), less falloff and more armour penetration + barricade IFF

that's it, that's everything it needs

also remove cancer red overlay

Fuck your barricade IFF. Big -1 on that.
And dunno about AP. If the falloff gets away then your damages will be not so bad.

Rest is alright.
Anyone gitlabs that?

[carlarc]

this has been git labbed hundreds of times devs are too busy doing Thing(tm) to check gitlab