Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

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Cleeve
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Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by Cleeve » 15 Dec 2018, 06:16

I was playing as XO Frenkie 'Unga' Morouse today and I got in situation, when, after the full evac some group of marines came to CIC and one marine started killing me with punches. I started shooting back and got eventually got shot.

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Shortly after that I got warned and had some discussion with moderator Taketheshot56.

Below the edited log fragment, which contains discussion.
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What do you think about this situation? Should the high ranking officer just call the MP and start some funny fist fight?

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Re: Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by MattAtlas » 15 Dec 2018, 06:27

I mean it's literally in the rules that you don't escalate like that.

Call the MPs.
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Re: Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by Cleeve » 15 Dec 2018, 06:36

MattAtlas wrote:
15 Dec 2018, 06:27
I mean it's literally in the rules that you don't escalate like that.

Call the MPs.
The rule 14 states that "Do not attack another player without a legitimate, explainable roleplay reason that could be applied in a similar, real-life scenario." which I think I did. In real-life scenario, high rank commander wouldn't wait to be killed.

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Re: Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by taketheshot56 » 15 Dec 2018, 06:52

He didnt start killing you with punches. He punched you a total of 5 times before you fired about 10 rounds of mod88AP into him.

You broke the rules. There were plenty of other ways to deal with that situation.
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Re: Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by Cleeve » 15 Dec 2018, 06:56

taketheshot56 wrote:
15 Dec 2018, 06:52
He didnt start killing you with punches. He punched you a total of 5 times before you fired about 10 rounds of mod88AP into him.

You broke the rules. There were plenty of other ways to deal with that situation.
Yes, he punched me a total of 5 times before I started firing. And if I didn't fire he may punched me more which would result in killing me or seriously injuring. I didn't have time to ask him like: "Yo bro, are you killing me or just punching?". And I am 100% sure that nobody would act in such way in real-life scenario.

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Re: Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by MattAtlas » 15 Dec 2018, 07:44

Cleeve wrote:
15 Dec 2018, 06:56
Yes, he punched me a total of 5 times before I started firing. And if I didn't fire he may punched me more which would result in killing me or seriously injuring. I didn't have time to ask him like: "Yo bro, are you killing me or just punching?". And I am 100% sure that nobody would act in such way in real-life scenario.
Punches do like 5 brute, bro. Even less than that because of your uniform acting as armour.
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Re: Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by CABAL » 15 Dec 2018, 08:49

It's goes like that: He punches you, you punches him back (or trying to escape, but we are talking about "Lethal Force"), then he gets the knife and stabs you, then you can go knife yourself and in the end firearms are allowed. Personal Defence.

This is proper escalation.
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Re: Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by RobBrown4PM » 15 Dec 2018, 14:24

To give you an example, I was punched and crowbarred roughly 20-30 times and was put into crit. I hadn't really been fighting back, but I knew if I let the go they were going to kill me, so I drew my side arm and started shooting.

Getting punched 5 times is no where near cause enough to put slugs into someone.
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Re: Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by Szunti » 15 Dec 2018, 14:42

Welcome to CM, where as an officer you are called Sir Moron and privates punching you are ordinary.

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Re: Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by Simo94 » 15 Dec 2018, 15:15

the proper escalation is punches>melee weapon>guns, u should of called the MPs or used a melee weapon.
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Re: Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by ThesoldierLLJK » 15 Dec 2018, 15:20

Simo94 wrote:
15 Dec 2018, 15:15
the proper escalation is punches>melee weapon>guns, u should of called the MPs or used a melee weapon.
Pretty much this

If you got beaten to death when you do not fight back, and there wasnt a good RP reason behind it, ahelp it.

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Re: Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by Sulaboy » 15 Dec 2018, 15:36

Simo94 wrote:
15 Dec 2018, 15:15
the proper escalation is punches>melee weapon>guns, u should of called the MPs or used a melee weapon.
This isn't directed at you but rather some insight into proper escalation.

There is more to improper escalation than just this. The fact that you are following this progression does not absolve your from other rules. If someone insults you and a fist fight occurs you have a duty to stop fighting if the other is incapable of defending theirselves, you cannot beat someone into paincrit then death without some good RP reason for doing so.
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Re: Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by Cleeve » 15 Dec 2018, 16:19

RobBrown4PM wrote:
15 Dec 2018, 14:24
To give you an example, I was punched and crowbarred roughly 20-30 times and was put into crit. I hadn't really been fighting back, but I knew if I let the go they were going to kill me, so I drew my side arm and started shooting.

Getting punched 5 times is no where near cause enough to put slugs into someone.
I got punched 5 times only because before the 6-th time I started shooting. I didn't know for sure, if marine will stop punching me.
In real-life situation if you have a gun and somebody will start punching you then you will shoot at him. However, here the only legit option for self-defense is punching back which I think is unrealistic.

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Re: Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by CABAL » 15 Dec 2018, 17:59

Cleeve wrote:
15 Dec 2018, 16:19
I got punched 5 times only because before the 6-th time I started shooting. I didn't know for sure, if marine will stop punching me.
In real-life situation if you have a gun and somebody will start punching you then you will shoot at him. However, here the only legit option for self-defense is punching back which I think is unrealistic.
In most countries you would be punished as a criminal for "inproper self-defence". Even as "real life" scenario, you are trained marine and your attacker is also trained marine. He is not boxer, or some kind of martial artist, you have fair chances against him in fist fight. Just becouse marine owns a gun doesn't mean it's reasonable to shoot at anyone who pushes/punches you few times too much.

I had couple situations where I had to use gun against other marine, but I never draw firearm first, yet I holstered it the last usually. No bans, or notes. It's not that hard to understand and live with that rule.
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Re: Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by Jonesome » 15 Dec 2018, 18:02

Nex time, flash him, zip cuff him, and bring him to brig.
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Re: Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by forest2001 » 15 Dec 2018, 20:24

Looking at the scenario you provided it is clear you escalated far too rapidly. Even if you could argue validation to shoot them you needn’t have continually done so. Disabling someone is far preferable to execution and it is likely that your continual firing led to counter attack and your getting shot. After the very first punch you should have called an MP.
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Re: Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by Karmac » 15 Dec 2018, 20:42

ok here's the situation bucko:
video games aren't always realistic, this one is about as unrealistic as they come what with the space aliens and moderators expecting people to follow rules

so at the end of the day if you haven't properly read the rules and a moderator tells you that you fucked up, you don't have a leg to stand on. this guy punched you five times, you didn't ask him to stop or anything and jumped straight to "I'm going to kill this man". it doesn't work like that around here, hopefully you've figured that out by now.
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Re: Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by Cleeve » 16 Dec 2018, 05:16

CABAL wrote:
15 Dec 2018, 17:59
In most countries you would be punished as a criminal for "inproper self-defence". Even as "real life" scenario, you are trained marine and your attacker is also trained marine. He is not boxer, or some kind of martial artist, you have fair chances against him in fist fight. Just becouse marine owns a gun doesn't mean it's reasonable to shoot at anyone who pushes/punches you few times too much.
It wasn't "marine vs marine" situation, it was "marine vs executive officer" situation. Also, it was just after Alamo started unscheduled drop on Almayer, so the situation was critical and required immediate action.
Jonesome wrote:
15 Dec 2018, 18:02
Nex time, flash him, zip cuff him, and bring him to brig.
Does the Executive Officer have access to this things? And should he walk with them to be prepared for such situation?
Karmac wrote:
15 Dec 2018, 20:42
ok here's the situation bucko:
video games aren't always realistic, this one is about as unrealistic as they come what with the space aliens and moderators expecting people to follow rules

so at the end of the day if you haven't properly read the rules and a moderator tells you that you fucked up, you don't have a leg to stand on.
I think that this rule may be interpreted differently in this situation.
Karmac wrote:
15 Dec 2018, 20:42
this guy punched you five times, you didn't ask him to stop or anything and jumped straight to "I'm going to kill this man". it doesn't work like that around here, hopefully you've figured that out by now.
I think that asking a man to stop killing you is stupid and unrealistic. But as I see, if you can't shoot him back then other choice should be directly ahelping.
And I didn't jump straight to "I'm going to kill this man". If, during shooting, he would stopped fighting then I would stop shooting too.

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Re: Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by Karmac » 16 Dec 2018, 05:39

I mean clearly you did jump to "I'm going to kill this guy" because you pulled a gun on him and started firing without saying "Hey maybe put the fists away or I might start shooting", because that would be "too unrealistic" I guess.

You're just making it painfully obvious you've got no understanding of the server rules and are an absolute moron. I spose that makes me a moron too for thinking I could teach a blind man to read something other than braille.
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Re: Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by taketheshot56 » 16 Dec 2018, 05:47

Look my friend. When the staff tells you, that you are wrong. And the players tell you that you are wrong. You are wrong. The only "misinterpretation" was that of you thinking that an executive officer could break the rules.
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Re: Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by starmute » 16 Dec 2018, 06:21

Get out of the situation and call the MPS. You always have a choice to not escalate the situation.
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Re: Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by Cleeve » 16 Dec 2018, 08:02

Karmac wrote:
16 Dec 2018, 05:39
I mean clearly you did jump to "I'm going to kill this guy" because you pulled a gun on him and started firing without saying "Hey maybe put the fists away or I might start shooting", because that would be "too unrealistic" I guess.
I understand that but I didn't jump to 'I'm going to kill this guy'. I am jumped to 'I am going to defend myself with a gun because he may kill me with the punches'. That's realistic. He, could just say 'Stop shooting' too which he didn't.
Karmac wrote:
16 Dec 2018, 05:39
You're just making it painfully obvious you've got no understanding of the server rules and are an absolute moron. I spose that makes me a moron too for thinking I could teach a blind man to read something other than braille.
I hadn't understanding of interpretation of the server rules by staff. Now I think I do - forget roleplay, next time just ahelp.
Also, I agree with you that you are moron and disagree with you that I am moron.
taketheshot56 wrote:
16 Dec 2018, 05:47
Look my friend. When the staff tells you, that you are wrong.
The staff may be wrong too. That's why I created this discussion instead of creating the report on staff.
taketheshot56 wrote:
16 Dec 2018, 05:47
And the players tell you that you are wrong. You are wrong. The only "misinterpretation" was that of you thinking that an executive officer could break the rules.
I didn't use the word "misinterpretation", you are wrong. Also, I didn't thought that executive officer can break the rules, you are wrong here too.
As you may see, the staff can be wrong too.

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Re: Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by Grimreaperx15 » 17 Dec 2018, 00:39

If you really think the moderator was incorrect, the appropriate course of action is to file a Staff Report. It'll be reviewed by Head Staff and a final ruling will be made on if they were wrong or not.

I can tell you that it will almost certainly be ruled that they were right, and you improperly escalated, but you really should file a report if you disagree.

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Re: Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by Kineem » 17 Dec 2018, 01:49

Cleeve wrote:
16 Dec 2018, 05:16
I think that asking a man to stop killing you is stupid and unrealistic.
asking a man not to kill you is in fact pretty normal both in real life and in game
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Re: Interpretation of the Rule 14. Lethal Force

Post by DefinitelyAlone0309 » 17 Dec 2018, 01:56

Chief, you could've just asked the dude "Hey fuckhead, stop punching or I'm giving you lead". If you wonder why the other marine didn't do the same when you were shooting him, he probably was in shock+in-game pain crit. You took 5 punches and you went "That's enough I'm just gonna whip out my pistol and shoot you" when you were an XO, aka someone actually trained and actually went through a lot of commanding experience and actually knew how to adapt to marines being shitheads.

Not only has staff told you that you're wrong, but many players have also told you that you're wrong. If you don't agree with the decision, the staff report section is a thing. Right now you're just arguing yourself into a dead end.

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