Doctors don't use weapons you say?

[Dyne]

They head up to medbay and kill every doctor...

I'll tell you more- aliens even have an IC reason to do it- as doctors are killing their young.

I am in favor of revising the rule, allowing Doctors to arm up and defend their workstation, say, on Red Alert.

[apophis775]

I don't understand this. I really don't. I have yet to see a character over the age of 40. You have to be mentally and physically fit to go into space. At all. You are serving aboard a military vessel, and to be honest if the Sulaco doesn't have a reputation at this point then it should. And you are asking people to split forces. You know, once when I was playing a round where the Sulaco had been boarded I had asked people to organize defense for the Medical bay and the bridge. I got neither. You can't expect people to defend medbay. They generally always reinforce the hangar and the ladders, and the second that goes through the grinder Medbay goes right afterwards.

Doctors are not supposed to be super mega weak because they are not super mega old. Every character I've seen has been in their prime, save for maybe the CL (who has a gun, mind you). No, they are not MADE for fighting, but they are not MADE SUPER MEGA WEAK either.

Stamos, I read that you said that statistically speaking doctors have been doing their jobs more because ever since you introduced this rule. Was this rule introduced around the same time that other more combat oriented roles were? For example, the Specialist, which everyone seems to want to play? Or the marines in general, who get to now snap a bunch of cool new bits to their guns?

I can promise you that the introduction of the rule isn't solely responsible for the amount of doctors doing their jobs, and I can say this with the utmost belief and sincerity because when I was playing back before the alpha map, I saw doctors doing their jobs even with guns allowed. I watched doctors have runners pop up in their surgery rooms mid surgery with another marine standing by, only for the marine to get pounced and hugged by said runner. The doctor would gun it down, save the marine, and continue surgery.

What you have done by introducing this ruling is made it so that ones who do actually do their jobs are left defenseless. And I still don't understand why Doctors are THE ONLY ONES affected by this rule. The Researcher doubles as a doctor. He gets a gun. That makes no sense. It's not logical.

Firstly, By "Super Mega" weak, I meant, they should be easy to kill and need to be protected, not crippling feeble from old age.

And nope. This rule was implemented at least a month after all the fancy new tech. You can actually reach the rules, and see the date the rule was introduced, and compare it to the fancy-new-tech from the update log if you want.

The researcher can't do medical procedures besides cloning and basic first aid.

[Wickedtemp]

Again, this fails to address every other point.

[razerwing]

Firstly, By "Super Mega" weak, I meant, they should be easy to kill and need to be protected, not crippling feeble from old age.

And nope. This rule was implemented at least a month after all the fancy new tech. You can actually reach the rules, and see the date the rule was introduced, and compare it to the fancy-new-tech from the update log if you want.

The researcher can't do medical procedures besides cloning and basic first aid.

Why is it that the Doctors are the only ones that should be easy to kill and need to be protected?
Why do you think that they are going to BE protected?
The marines don't hold medical, they hold the Hangar and Briefing, and if/when that defense fails Medical is the first to get hit because that's where a majority of the people who aren't combat capable are.

[HalfdeadKiller]

So, I was playing a round of CM as a Doctor. Marines got their asses kicked, aliens have boarded/are boarding again, and the shuttle is called. Me and two other doctors load up some medical crates, and set up in Escape Pod 1. Now. On the way there, Comms were down, and we see no other marines, and aliens have boarded multiple times and someone radioed they were aboard before comms got cut. So I go and grab a welder to weld the Escape Pod door if I see Xenos, a wrench to set up tables, and an SMG with two magazines. Now. The intention was not to fight on the front lines with this SMG. It was to try and defend myself and the two other doctors, from any Xenos that try to come and kill us, as we haven't seen any marines and comms are down.

Lo and behold, the queen comes knocking at our pod. I weld the door, and we set up some flimsy tables. The door melts. Queen comes charging, smashing through our tables. I grab the SMG, shoot the queen, queen screeches, and I get put to sleep via verbs and stuff.

Now, during this, myself, the doctors, and an admin are talkin about doctors and guns, because one doctor stated he thought doctors weren't allowed guns. Well. From what I understood, they aren't allowed them so 1. They don't rush and charge with marines, and instead stay behind, not get shot, and heal marines. And 2. To give larva's and such a fighting chance on the Sulaco.

Now. In this case. I was not rushing into battle with marines, nor was there any bursters. But I was still put to sleep simply for using a weapon as a Doctor, in a last stand, no backup situation. This just seems incredibly stupid to me. Granted, me being put to sleep probably benefited me considering I survived for a bit after by playing dead, and some marine stragglers decided to run to the pods, only to be decimated by the aliens. But I was still "punished" for using a weapon, when the purpose of the rule wasn't even happening. I wasn't running to the front lines with a weapon.

So, I guess, does this mean doctors should simply succumb to their deaths, with no chance of fighting back, as they aren't allowed to use weapons in ANY situation? Or are they simply not supposed to be on the front lines, chasing xenos, and more or less being combat medics? And while yes, I am a little miffed about being put to sleep, it didn't really matter at that point anyway. Had I have not been put to sleep, the queen would have ripped me to shreds. I simply want to know what kind of rule this is. Is this a rule where doctors can't use weapons at any time? Or is it so that doctors don't become combat medics?

[Wickedtemp]

So, I was playing a round of CM as a Doctor. Marines got their asses kicked, aliens have boarded/are boarding again, and the shuttle is called. Me and two other doctors load up some medical crates, and set up in Escape Pod 1. Now. On the way there, Comms were down, and we see no other marines, and aliens have boarded multiple times and someone radioed they were aboard before comms got cut. So I go and grab a welder to weld the Escape Pod door if I see Xenos, a wrench to set up tables, and an SMG with two magazines. Now. The intention was not to fight on the front lines with this SMG. It was to try and defend myself and the two other doctors, from any Xenos that try to come and kill us, as we haven't seen any marines and comms are down.

Lo and behold, the queen comes knocking at our pod. I weld the door, and we set up some flimsy tables. The door melts. Queen comes charging, smashing through our tables. I grab the SMG, shoot the queen, queen screeches, and I get put to sleep via verbs and stuff.

Now, during this, myself, the doctors, and an admin are talkin about doctors and guns, because one doctor stated he thought doctors weren't allowed guns. Well. From what I understood, they aren't allowed them so 1. They don't rush and charge with marines, and instead stay behind, not get shot, and heal marines. And 2. To give larva's and such a fighting chance on the Sulaco.

Now. In this case. I was not rushing into battle with marines, nor was there any bursters. But I was still put to sleep simply for using a weapon as a Doctor, in a last stand, no backup situation. This just seems incredibly stupid to me. Granted, me being put to sleep probably benefited me considering I survived for a bit after by playing dead, and some marine stragglers decided to run to the pods, only to be decimated by the aliens. But I was still "punished" for using a weapon, when the purpose of the rule wasn't even happening. I wasn't running to the front lines with a weapon.

So, I guess, does this mean doctors should simply succumb to their deaths, with no chance of fighting back, as they aren't allowed to use weapons in ANY situation? Or are they simply not supposed to be on the front lines, chasing xenos, and more or less being combat medics? And while yes, I am a little miffed about being put to sleep, it didn't really matter at that point anyway. Had I have not been put to sleep, the queen would have ripped me to shreds. I simply want to know what kind of rule this is. Is this a rule where doctors can't use weapons at any time? Or is it so that doctors don't become combat medics?

Basically Staff wants doctors to be the weakest of the weak, and insanely stupid with no sense of self preservation. Basically like robots with literally only one task, and that task is to try to heal people.

Oh, you see an alien about to kill you? You're allowed to poke it with a scalpel, but if you actually do something threatening to it then that's bad and you'll be punished. It seems Staff believes that doctors should just return to the xeno-infested medbay and continue to heal people with a kind of Pirates of the Caribbean Davy Jones Crew mindset. Like... doctors here are basically synths with these laws. "Heal injured people. Do not harm people. Ignore everything else. You are not important, do not make reasonable measures to save yourself." because that's what the current rules force them to be.

Again, in RL it really isn't that difficult to shoot a gun. It really, really isn't. The recoil for ANY of these guns isn't even worth mentioning. I can shoot a 12 gauge just fine and I'm a tiny, skinny little twig. I'm pretty sure the recoil on that would be less than the pulse rifle. And since, in the game, we don't have automatic weapons, they wouldn't need THAT much training to use.

I mean, one of the reasons doctors can't use weapons is that "B-but Doctor RP! And oaths!" thing which, while easily debunked, is also complete shit as well. Baystation 12 is a 'High' RP server, so we take the oaths and such a bit more seriously. And you know what happens when a few mercenaries invade and wipe out our security team? And then they corner the doctors, a scientist, and one of the synths in a wing of Research with no way out? The scientist makes us weaponry, we arm ourselves, and we fight back because while oaths are nice and all, if we don't do this we're dead. And if you value your oath, you'd probably realize that by letting yourself get killed when you can possibly prevent it, you're causing more harm than good than if you fought back and lived.

Doctors are not idiots. Doctors are not automatically weak and feeble. And you can claim that this server even puts a FRACTION of a fuck into RP, but obviously that isn't true when the entirety of medical staff isn't allowed a realistic character.

[Wesmas]

I wrote this once already, but the system decided I wasnt logged in...so, let me write it again.
I was in the round with Halfdeadkiller.
The fact is doctos have no chance to run away from an alien if you can see them. We have no chance of enduring the damage, because the doctors clothes stop no damage. We dont have people stationed to help us and we dont have a pod in medical to use.
Earlier in the round mentioned, I went across ship to help an injuered MP. I went in and got shot by a marine. I was nearly dead, because it ripped through me. If I had the marine armor, half the shots would have bounced. The marine jumpsuit would have taken a fair ammount of damage off. Instead I needed surgery because my chest was torn apart. I know alien damage is different, but the same thing happens.
The way the map is set up can leave doctors doomed too. If there are no marines defending the hanger, or they get pushed back quickly, they then try and hold breifing. This leaves medical, and the bridge, cut off from escape, probably with nobody protecting the people inside. The bridge crew all have service pistols and armor availible, but doctors dont. There is nothing to stop a single runner or hunter comming through medical, killing anyone unluckly enough to be stuck there. The rule also stops any doctor from taking a gun from a dead marine. There could be a load of unconcious crew, a gun on the floor and an alien in front of you, but using that gun to try and save the crews lives is against the rules.
I know the doctors are civvies, but I kinda feel like marine doctors would make more sense. It reduces the chance of a civvie disagreeing with commands 'requests', and also means you have some firearms training, reducing the number of crew required to protect medical.
I suggest adding a dispencer in medial with pistols and armor jackets, to give doctos some kind of chance of running away and keeping aliens off.
We could also have a small ammount of damage resistance in the clothing. I think someoen pointed out civies wouldnt wear it, but we have light materials which can be worn in our world today, is it impossible to imagine the doctors having some resistance built into their suits.
I also suggest adding an escape pod to medical so doctors can get away with injered crew if they are cut off.
The other option is to increase the number of MP's so that there are a couple in medical armed with decent weapons to esscort the doctors to safety during crises. You could do this kind of thing by putting a squad there, but that is not garenteed to happen.
So, what do you think?

[Wickedtemp]

I agree with everything in the above post. Except for the suggested MP squad.

MP already prove themselves to be unreliable for pretty much everything. Having more of them will either mean more incompetent assholes, or just empty slots because the incompetent assholes all chose Command and Marines.

But yeah, Medbay generally is the first place to go, and the moment the defense in the Hangar fails, which it does OFTEN, medbay is utterly fucked, as is anyone still inside. Because doctors aren't allowed to be realistic and defend themselves using reasonable measures, they have no way of getting past the line of xenos and into escape.

[Wesmas]

I agree with everything in the above post. Except for the suggested MP squad.

MP already prove themselves to be unreliable for pretty much everything. Having more of them will either mean more incompetent assholes, or just empty slots because the incompetent assholes all chose Command and Marines

In the first one I wrote, I did point out that MP's tend to be low in numbers, even on medium or high pop rounds. But unless we get the MP's, or a ship defense squad, to station some people in medical, then what can we do? Because we need someone there. It just doesnt work not having security in medical. Curently I beilve the MP count is 3. To me that means at the start of the round, one in breifing, one in requesitions and one in marine prep. Once marines deploy, one on the bridge, one in the hanger, and one in the marine prep/requesitions area. In reality, I would want to deploy pairs of gaurds in all these places and medical. But it cant happen. I dont know, maybe we would have interest in that kinda thing, but it seems unlikely.

[Wickedtemp]

In the first one I wrote, I did point out that MP's tend to be low in numbers, even on medium or high pop rounds. But unless we get the MP's, or a ship defense squad, to station some people in medical, then what can we do? Because we need someone there. It just doesnt work not having security in medical. Curently I beilve the MP count is 3. To me that means at the start of the round, one in breifing, one in requesitions and one in marine prep. Once marines deploy, one on the bridge, one in the hanger, and one in the marine prep/requesitions area. In reality, I would want to deploy pairs of gaurds in all these places and medical. But it cant happen. I dont know, maybe we would have interest in that kinda thing, but it seems unlikely.

I don't normally see all 3 MP slots used in the first place, and when they are, it's Good Cop Alkek and 2 new guys who think that they can beat the shit out of handcuffed prisoners and that being jailed means being stripped of all human rights. Or, it's Alkek, Tanya, and Nix. Had that happen once, it was a pretty solid team. Rowan is also a good MP.

Coming from a guy who regularly plays MP... Unless you know the Officer, it's generally not the best to rely on MP. I mean, if something bad is going down, call MP first, but have a solid back-up plan because from what I've seen, either nothing will be done or shit's going down.

[Wesmas]

I don't normally see all 3 MP slots used in the first place, and when they are, it's Good Cop Alkek and 2 new guys who think that they can beat the shit out of handcuffed prisoners and that being jailed means being stripped of all human rights. Or, it's Alkek, Tanya, and Nix. Had that happen once, it was a pretty solid team. Rowan is also a good MP.

Coming from a guy who regularly plays MP... Unless you know the Officer, it's generally not the best to rely on MP. I mean, if something bad is going down, call MP first, but have a solid back-up plan because from what I've seen, either nothing will be done or shit's going down.

I would add bigby to the list of trusted MP's. I also see where you are comming from, but the quality of the MP's is not the real issue here.

[Wickedtemp]

I would add bigby to the list of trusted MP's. I also see where you are comming from, but the quality of the MP's is not the real issue here.

I don't believe I've seen Bigby as an MP yet... I'm probably going to make a list of all the good MP's so I'll know whether or not I can trust them. I won't post it here because... I don't know, it'd seem like a kind of dick move to the people who might not've made the list. I guess if anyone wanted to see it, they could PM me but I won't be posting it on the forums.

[Veradox]

I see you dorks arguing about why doctors don't get guns but I don't see anyone offering this idea to filter out the good doctors from the bad doctors, the ones who carry a sidearm for when everyone is dead but them separated from the ones who will be friendly firing on everyone at the front line. It's a pretty solid and more than likely a static rule that's made to prevent incidents like that from occurring, so one would think that if someone devotes a five page thread to the right to bear arms, there'd have been a supported solution provided, so I'll toss my hat into the ring with more than enough eye candy to sate discussion and argue it on a one-time basis.

Firstly, this is a videogame set in an untimely future. This is a covered fact, but, maybe not so well as it should be. There's no point in forcing realism if the realism ends up detracting from player experience in the long-run (See: Boarding the Sulaco/Runners Ventcrawling And Decapitating After Leap) mainly because that's silly and there's no reason to keep producing similar results if someone can do something about it. I'm not saying let them carry it all day, by the way. If you support denying doctors guns, I'd have to take your side on it, because it rightly doesn't make too much sense. Still, however, there must be a constant reminder that, again, this is a videogame. Rules like this are instated for balance and balance needs proper justification to be adjusted rather than strings of ad hoc statements, references to inexplicably irrelevant job titles, under-appreciation of the provision of real-life functionality and reused posts just because they're thought as steel beams that no jet fuel can ever hope to challenge. It took a lot of effort to sift through repeated posts on this thread, and it was a general eyesore to handle or even acknowledge.

Secondly, and no less building off of firstly, I'm seeing a lot of blatant, no strings attached 'If _____ then _____', but not everything works in black and white like that because we'll be getting people who understand this procedure but will abuse it whenever possible and even those who disregard it altogether. It's just how the world works, and nobody can change that, so you have to make decisions that interact with a group of differing people with a careful and tedious process. You can't install something into a large community without breaking down and searching through prevalent alternatives or instances which overshadow your propositions and, inevitably, cause more trouble than it's worth. What you'll be wanting is a generic yet worthy solution, to separate x from y, to where staff can identify and be able to understand who's capable of wielding a firearm yet not neglect their role's duties-- Doctoring and maintaining the health of the marines.

They have to know that x will be able to treat their marines, conduct surgical procedures, understand and respect their civilian role in that they will not stray from their department until ordered, be able to comprehend the technicalities, phrasing and meaning present in the griefing and role rules and align their conduct appropriately to them (Refrain from returning fire), and, perhaps, have the community's support based on their general ability (Because let's face it, it's a game and there's people who play it better than others and therefore have an irrevocable advantage.) all while under the influence of a holstered weapon. It'll incorporate circumstance as everyone pleads, but it'll incorporate it under supervision and trust unto a select few rather than handing the right out to everyone, because, again, it just wouldn't work that way.

It's a lot of words, I know, and it's all to support the central point, but here's the not-so TL;DR and something extra after it:

The gist of it is to beg the mighty staff gods with all your hearts to produce a strict white-list system, with understanding of the implied punishment for shattering your reputation in the event you break the guidelines for it being a necessity for application, for your character to be identified to be competent and smart enough to be able to carry a sidearm under certain circumstance. It's a little bit more work to sift through but it might as well encourage people to play doctor knowing they have an ability to not be insta-gibbed, and it'll do well as practice in the future in the event further positions or guidelines arise and it won't be any different than what's expected out of a predator's conduct aside from duty -- Maintain competence in a roleplay environment. It'll literally be a nerfed predator app process. Not much else to it except a little more maintenance.

I don't like the idea that medical staff should hold weapons, but I don't disagree with the fact that it provides it's own points and those points just need to be voiced properly. Build off of this as you will, but don't expect the rule to change just because I invested fifty three minutes to type up some long-winded post because coffee was available, so don't quote me as a supporter either. This just needed to be addressed. The rule probably won't be changed or modified, but, I hope everyone knows why by now at the very least.

[Wickedtemp]

I'd support a whitelist for that, but...honestly that entire post is referring to medical personal have weapons the ENTIRE time, which was not at all what I was suggesting.

Only when boarded. Emergency situations. That's when doctors need to have at least some form of defense. That's what I'm arguing in support for.

But a strict white-list might also work... However I doubt that the Staff want yet another thing to keep an eye on.

[Veradox]

A sentence was cut off in production of that post. It's not intended for them to have a weapon all-day, as that prevents the existence of larvae bursting on the Sulaco way too hard. It's been modified.

[monkeysfist101]

How's this?
The CMO is allowed to carry a sidearm at all times.
In the event of Red Alert or an unauthorized boarding, a weapons locker containing three SMGs and an M37 unlocks.

[Wesmas]

How's this?
The CMO is allowed to carry a sidearm at all times.
In the event of Red Alert or an unauthorized boarding, a weapons locker containing three SMGs and an M37 unlocks.

I was suggesting something similar, but I think those weapons are far to powerful. I was thinking service pistols and maybe an SMG. But that kinda idea is what I think would be best.

[Wickedtemp]

CMO I can see being allowed a sidearm at all times. And if there was a way a weapons locker could be coded so that, when the Queen uses the shuttle, it unlocks, that would be excellent.

I think it would contain a few pistols and an SMG, one extra clip for each. Maybe a few helmets too, I don't know.

Or, since it takes like thirty seconds to run to Prep, grab shit and run back, you could just do that instead. As a doctor I always grab a helmet when we get boarded because it's just fucking stupid not to. The Sulaco is a combat zone, a helmet could save your life.

[Telegnats]

I think being a doctor that basically lives on a space faring vessel fighting a species of aliens whose sole intent is to infect and spread ~150 years (In a 2-d spacemans game) in the future isn't exactly the context in which the Geneva Conventions and the Hippocratic oath were written.

[Dyne]

Neither Geneva convention or Hyppocratic oath prohibits taking arms against dangerous animals in a time when the patients and the doctors lives are threatened.

[monkeysfist101]

If you haven't heard of Ben L. Salomon, look him up. He was a field doctor in WWII who killed at least 98 Japanese soldiers when they over ran his position. He was posthumously awarded the Medal of Honor in 2002. Even if they are not assigned weapons, doctors should be able to take up arms to protect their medbay.

[Wickedtemp]

The thing is, there's no IC reason why doctors shouldn't use weaponry. It's all the OOC reason of "We're worried that doctors will run off and fight."

Okay, then job-ban those people. Seriously this isn't that big of a problem, it's just annoying that Staff is basically saying "We're just going to let Medbay get utterly massacred because if we let them defend themselves, a few people might go on the offensive instead of treating patients."

It's NOT that hard to solve. Rule update, "Doctors are allowed a sidearm for self defense purposes in the event of an attack, however their TOP PRIORITY is and will remain to be taking care of the wounded. To do otherwise may result in a JOB-BAN."

And then enforce it.

[Dyne]

__/\__

[matchafrappe]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_L._Salomon
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Edwards_Walker

What cowinkydink that Dr. Salomon died on an island where I now live.