Game Mode Rework

[monkeysfist101]

I'm just going to store this here for people to make suggestions until the suggestion thread is reopened.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1rqH ... j1TXE/edit

Thank you to everyone who has been leaving suggestions. I'm working through implementing them, though I need to get to class.

Back from camping. I can answer suggestions again.

[MikeHdez97]

I like this idea,because it gonna be more accurate to the movies

[Disco Dalek]

Some really interesting ideas here. Both sides would no doubt be unhappy about certain changes, but they do seem to balance each other out fairly well. I could definitely deal with being unable to escape from nests if some of the other alien nerfs happen. Only real problem I see is that this would be a MAJOR change to the play style of the server. Some of the more minor changes like built in flashlights and welders with built in shields would be really nice to see and much easier to implement short term.

[SecretStamos (Joshuu)]

Actually, when I made the grenade icon, I considered making it look like the tube grenades from aliens. But I went with a more traditional design for gameplay reasons. It's likely players wouldn't recognize the device, either (armed or unarmed) as a grenade. Even experienced players who do recognize the device might have a slower reaction time to it than a classical grenade.

Maybe if the M41a ever gets a functional grenade launcher, we can use those as the ammunition. But having them as a hand-grenade will likely just end up getting a lot of marines killed.

[monkeysfist101]

If not a grenade launcher, then how about a shotgun slightly weaker than the 870? Less damage and ammunition capacity, but still strong enough to take out an egg in one hit?

[SecretStamos (Joshuu)]

If not a grenade launcher, then how about a shotgun slightly weaker than the 870? Less damage and ammunition capacity, but still strong enough to take out an egg in one hit?

We had the underbarrel grenade launcher and underbarrel shotgun planned for the M41a, but they've been put on hold over coding difficulties.

The m41a would probably have a grenade launcher attached by default, but ammunition for it would be scare and difficult to obtain.



It proved to be too difficult to make. It's on hold permanently until it can be figured out.

[Lostmixup]

We had the underbarrel grenade launcher and underbarrel shotgun planned for the M41a, but they've been put on hold over coding difficulties.

The m41a would probably have a grenade launcher attached by default, but ammunition for it would be scare and difficult to obtain.



It proved to be too difficult to make. It's on hold permanently until it can be figured out.

I would imagine you'd attach it like an attachment then right click on it and switch to grenade mode. Sort of like pumping a shotgun or something.

[monkeysfist101]

I would imagine you'd attach it like an attachment then right click on it and switch to grenade mode. Sort of like pumping a shotgun or something.

I'd assume that it wouldn't be an attachment as it's integrated into the rifle, but I agree with the switching it to grenade mode. It should be able to take shotgun shells and grenades, but only having explosive ammo given to the squad leader to distribute.

Edited so I don't look like I wrote that sentence while sniffing glue.

[SecretStamos (Joshuu)]

I would imagine you'd attach it like an attachment then right click on it and switch to grenade mode. Sort of like pumping a shotgun or something.

Designing it on paper is easy, actually implementing and coding it is the issue.

I'd assume that it wouldn't be an attachment as it's integrated into the rifle, but I agree with the switching it to grenade mode. It should be able to take shotgun shells and grenades, but only having explosive ammo given to the squad leader to distribute.

Edited so I don't look like I wrote that sentence while sniffing glue.

We designed the shotgun to be a separate from the grenade launcher. We don't want the m41a firing shotgun shells out of the box because that isn't a standard feature of the M41a, nor would it be good for balance. Literally every marine would be rolling around with a assault-rifle/shotgun hybrid. That's no bueno for gameplay and lore.

[monkeysfist101]

After going back over my sources, I see that the under-slung SPAS 12 is exclusively a grenade launcher. Not only that, but in the movies, there isn't a standard issue shotgun. The shotgun that Hicks used was a family heirloom that his Ithaca Model 37 was used by one of his ancestors in Vietnam and was passed down through the generations. In the original draft, the squad mates asked if he robbed a museum to get it.

[SecretStamos (Joshuu)]

After going back over my sources, I see that the under-slung SPAS 12 is exclusively a grenade launcher. Not only that, but in the movies, there isn't a standard issue shotgun. The shotgun that Hicks used was a family heirloom that his Ithaca Model 37 was used by one of his ancestors in Vietnam and was passed down through the generations. In the original draft, the squad mates asked if he robbed a museum to get it.

When we lack a movie source, we draw from the games and the books. The m37 shotgun is the standard shotgun from the game "Aliens: Colonial Marines"

http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/M37A2_Pump_Shotgun

[monkeysfist101]

When we lack a movie source, we draw from the games and the books. The m37 shotgun is the standard shotgun from the game "Aliens: Colonial Marines"

http://avp.wikia.com/wiki/M37A2_Pump_Shotgun

I'm fully aware. It never made it into the movie and therefore is non-canon. I just thought it was a funny and clever explanation of such a dated shotgun being used that far in the future.

[Toroic]

I can certainly see why marines would enjoy massive xeno nerfs and minor, unimportant buffs.

-Weeds nerfed/drones nerfed
--Queen massively nerfed
-Carrier removed/nerfed
--Facehuggers massively nerfed
-Spitters nerfed
-Doors removed
-Nests reworked
-Vision nerfed

+Marine motion sensors
+Marine weapons buffed
-Marine helmets don't block nerfed huggers
+Ripley buffed
-Grabs changed


Generally though this rework fucks over xenos and I don't see how it improves gameplay, just is more lore-accurate (and aliens lore is pretty scattered and unfocused to begin with.

[Derpislav]

Even as a marine-only player I see that this would make our current xenos unable to win any fair fights. To make the game lore-accurate and fun, we would need a complete, total rework.

[monkeysfist101]

I can certainly see why marines would enjoy massive xeno nerfs and minor, unimportant buffs.

-Weeds nerfed/drones nerfed
--Queen massively nerfed
-Carrier removed/nerfed
--Facehuggers massively nerfed
-Spitters nerfed
-Doors removed
-Nests reworked
-Vision nerfed

+Marine motion sensors
+Marine weapons buffed
-Marine helmets don't block nerfed huggers
+Ripley buffed
-Grabs changed


Generally though this rework fucks over xenos and I don't see how it improves gameplay, just is more lore-accurate (and aliens lore is pretty scattered and unfocused to begin with.

This is a long term list that is constantly being modified as I learn more about our current mechanics and Aliens Lore. As of now, it is heavily marine favored as I've yet to get to the meat of what makes the concept of Xenos truly terrifying. As far as the list of grievances, so far, the only thing drones were nerfed with is that they can't Peyton Manning facehuggers at marines. If anything, they've been buffed by being able to move eggs. Playing the Queen is akin to playing the A.I. She should not be a front line fighter and in the movie only entered combat when every other xeno on LV426 was dead. Personally, the carrier should never have been implemented, but that's just my opinion. Reworking the vision makes sense as Isolation shows us. It is possible to hide from xenos. The marine motion sensor would only tell them that there is movement nearby and require to be held in a marine's hand removing their ability to fire. I'd say that removing half of the Power Loader's speed is a fair exchange and reducing frontal armor is a fair trade for a one tile flamethrower.

Even as a marine-only player I see that this would make our current xenos unable to win any fair fights.

To those of you who do not know, Aliens is a Vietnam War movie IN SPAAACE! The movie's marines represent the US armed forces who were better trained and equipped, but fell prey to ambush tactics. In the atmospheric processing plant, the marines were ambushed and defeated. In every "fair fight" the marines dominated and killed most ofthe hive before Ripley went down to the Queen's lair. I've tried to simulate that by making it easier for xenos to grab marines and drag them back to the hive and make it harder for them to escape. This new system would be built on asymmetric combat.

To make the game lore-accurate and fun, we would need a complete, total rework.

That's what I'm working towards. I appreciate everyone taking the time to give suggestions and constructive criticism. This rebalance has to span all canon sources and, frankly, I've not experienced all of the canon sources (The books, A:CM DLC packs, Most of Isolation, and I think I repressed most of 3 & 4 so I'll be re-watching them.)

I think that answered most questions. I'll review it when I get back from my lab.

[Toroic]

This is a long term list that is constantly being modified as I learn more about our current mechanics and Aliens Lore. As of now, it is heavily marine favored as I've yet to get to the meat of what makes the concept of Xenos truly terrifying. As far as the list of grievances, so far, the only thing drones were nerfed with is that they can't Peyton Manning facehuggers at marines. If anything, they've been buffed by being able to move eggs. Playing the Queen is akin to playing the A.I. She should not be a front line fighter and in the movie only entered combat when every other xeno on LV426 was dead. Personally, the carrier should never have been implemented, but that's just my opinion. Reworking the vision makes sense as Isolation shows us. It is possible to hide from xenos. The marine motion sensor would only tell them that there is movement nearby and require to be held in a marine's hand removing their ability to fire. I'd say that removing half of the Power Loader's speed is a fair exchange and reducing frontal armor is a fair trade for a one tile flamethrower.
To those of you who do not know, Aliens is a Vietnam War movie IN SPAAACE! The movie's marines represent the US armed forces who were better trained and equipped, but fell prey to ambush tactics. In the atmospheric processing plant, the marines were ambushed and defeated. In every "fair fight" the marines dominated and killed most ofthe hive before Ripley went down to the Queen's lair. I've tried to simulate that by making it easier for xenos to grab marines and drag them back to the hive and make it harder for them to escape. This new system would be built on asymmetric combat.
That's what I'm working towards. I appreciate everyone taking the time to give suggestions and constructive criticism. This rebalance has to span all canon sources and, frankly, I've not experienced all of the canon sources (The books, A:CM DLC packs, Most of Isolation, and I think I repressed most of 3 & 4 so I'll be re-watching them.)

I think that answered most questions. I'll review it when I get back from my lab.

Aliens are mildly scary because they have higher numbers, stealth, and wall-crawling. None of which are feasible on this server.

I really don't understand the care about "canon" when we're talking about a series where only 50% of the movies are any good.

The current mechanics are as they are because gameplay is more important than lore. I see how the changes fit the lore better, but absolutely nothing that improves gameplay.

[apophis775]

If you want, I can go through the document and just delete all the stuff that won't happen.


Also, know that when suggestions DO re-open, each suggestions must be it's own topic, or I'll ignore them forever. I HATE trying to sort through 15 suggestions for the one good one, it SUPER delays me.



EDIT:

I went through the document. My comments are in blue, but my edit color is green i think? (like the color google doc highlighted all my stuff with).

[monkeysfist101]

If you want, I can go through the document and just delete all the stuff that won't happen.


Also, know that when suggestions DO re-open, each suggestions must be it's own topic, or I'll ignore them forever. I HATE trying to sort through 15 suggestions for the one good one, it SUPER delays me.



EDIT:

I went through the document. My comments are in blue, but my edit color is green i think? (like the color google doc highlighted all my stuff with).

I just got back into town and reviewed your replies. You made some very good points throughout the document, but several of your points seemed rushed and many lacked your reasons. I've modified the document accordingly and will continue to modify it in the future. When they are re-opened, these will be made as individual suggestions in order of importance. For now, this is the holding area to store my and several other community members' ideas. Your text ended up coming out as black and in one font size smaller than the doc, though I later highlighted your replies. Thank you for taking the time to go over it.

[monkeysfist101]

I finally woke up from my Fallout 4 induced haze (Where did this beard come from?) and got back to the suggestion thread. Replies are updated and some much needed formatting was implemented.

[Toroic]

I finally woke up from my Fallout 4 induced haze (Where did this beard come from?) and got back to the suggestion thread. Replies are updated and some much needed formatting was implemented.

The core of what you're trying to do is still broken.

You're trying to make things lore-accurate and as a secondary feature remove things you don't like about xenos.

Gameplay fun and balance hasn't been a major concern in your suggestions, and that is unacceptable.

[monkeysfist101]

The core of what you're trying to do is still broken.

You're trying to make things lore-accurate and as a secondary feature remove things you don't like about xenos.

Gameplay fun and balance hasn't been a major concern in your suggestions, and that is unacceptable.

Where do I begin? Your comments as of yet have done nothing bot complain about my suggestions without offering your own view. In my rework, a few of the gimmicky xenos are removed, but the marines are fare more nerfed than them. Both sides have received buffs and debuffs. Calling someone's opinion "unacceptable" is both snide and childish considering the doc is a pre-suggestion listing for a game nobody's heard of.

All three of your posts have been attacks containing things like:
"I can certainly see why marines would enjoy massive xeno nerfs and minor, unimportant buffs."
"I really don't understand the care about "canon" when we're talking about a series where only 50% of the movies are any good."
"You're trying to make things lore-accurate and as a secondary feature remove things you don't like about xenos."

From this point on, unless your posts contain relevant constructive criticism or suggestions to add to the list, I will not be acknowledging your statements.

[apophis775]

I just got back into town and reviewed your replies. You made some very good points throughout the document, but several of your points seemed rushed and many lacked your reasons. I've modified the document accordingly and will continue to modify it in the future. When they are re-opened, these will be made as individual suggestions in order of importance. For now, this is the holding area to store my and several other community members' ideas. Your text ended up coming out as black and in one font size smaller than the doc, though I later highlighted your replies. Thank you for taking the time to go over it.

Some of my responses were rushed. I added them, as a way to guide you when you start making suggestion topics, but I'm not going to spend all my time, putting responses in a google document about changes someone wants to make to a game I made that's already got a lot of stuff coming, and several documents that guide it's development. In reality, I don't really have to explain myself for why I don't want to put a specific feature in, I did that out of courtesy. And, not having to explain myself about every decision I make, or denial of a suggestion, is a perk of owning the code and server.

Bottom line though, if I said no to something, making a suggestion topic for it, is just going to get that same thing declined in the future. At the end of the day, though we take input from our players, I tend to focus the development on the direction that me and my dev team thinks is best based on our combined years of experience in this field.

[monkeysfist101]

Some of my responses were rushed. I added them, as a way to guide you when you start making suggestion topics, but I'm not going to spend all my time, putting responses in a google document about changes someone wants to make to a game I made that's already got a lot of stuff coming, and several documents that guide it's development. In reality, I don't really have to explain myself for why I don't want to put a specific feature in, I did that out of courtesy. And, not having to explain myself about every decision I make, or denial of a suggestion, is a perk of owning the code and server.

Bottom line though, if I said no to something, making a suggestion topic for it, is just going to get that same thing declined in the future. At the end of the day, though we take input from our players, I tend to focus the development on the direction that me and my dev team thinks is best based on our combined years of experience in this field.

I get what you're saying. When I wrote that I had just gotten back from spending 24 of the past 48 hours driving and was a may more aggressive than I should have been. I was asking for your reasoning so that I could tailor future suggestions away from the reason you didn't want it in. The thread was established so that the community could work together to come up with a lore friendly rebalance while the suggestion thread is down. The fact that you're contributing to is is more than I asked for/anticipated. Thank you again fr your reply.

[Toroic]

Where do I begin? Your comments as of yet have done nothing bot complain about my suggestions without offering your own view. In my rework, a few of the gimmicky xenos are removed, but the marines are fare more nerfed than them. Both sides have received buffs and debuffs. Calling someone's opinion "unacceptable" is both snide and childish considering the doc is a pre-suggestion listing for a game nobody's heard of.

All three of your posts have been attacks containing things like:
"I can certainly see why marines would enjoy massive xeno nerfs and minor, unimportant buffs."
"I really don't understand the care about "canon" when we're talking about a series where only 50% of the movies are any good."
"You're trying to make things lore-accurate and as a secondary feature remove things you don't like about xenos."

From this point on, unless your posts contain relevant constructive criticism or suggestions to add to the list, I will not be acknowledging your statements.

What's so funny about this is you suggest changes that would make the game worse, without even understanding why they're bad.

For example, not allowing humans to escape from a xeno's grab or a nest is a terrible change, because it completely removes any counterplay from the marine from the moment they are grabbed.

The whole point of allowing helmets to block huggers, marines to unhug other marines, marines to escape nests, and surgery to remove larvae before they burst is to provide marines counterplay.

What you're suggesting is that marines would get grabbed and nested until they burst with absolutely no counterplay. Too many marines already go SSD once they get hugged, and there'd be no reason not to under the system you suggest.

You also dislike xenos having doors for some reason. I don't really understand where this stems from, but without doors making a defensible hive is pretty impossible, and the way xeno players would adapt would be to spam sticky resin (which marine players hate far more than doors) and eventually just use tunnels and walls from early on to seal things off, meaning marines would have to cut through 4-10 layers of walls before they could get into the hive. No one wants that.

Apop has spent a lot of time considering balance and game design. That doesn't mean every decision is 100%, and CM is a very complex game mode, but it generally means that any change that doesn't have some clear gameplay benefits has probably been considered or rejected either because it's inferior or not technically feasible.

[monkeysfist101]

What's so funny about this is you suggest changes that would make the game worse, without even understanding why they're bad.

For example, not allowing humans to escape from a xeno's grab or a nest is a terrible change, because it completely removes any counterplay from the marine from the moment they are grabbed.

The whole point of allowing helmets to block huggers, marines to unhug other marines, marines to escape nests, and surgery to remove larvae before they burst is to provide marines counterplay.

What you're suggesting is that marines would get grabbed and nested until they burst with absolutely no counterplay. Too many marines already go SSD once they get hugged, and there'd be no reason not to under the system you suggest.

You also dislike xenos having doors for some reason. I don't really understand where this stems from, but without doors making a defensible hive is pretty impossible, and the way xeno players would adapt would be to spam sticky resin (which marine players hate far more than doors) and eventually just use tunnels and walls from early on to seal things off, meaning marines would have to cut through 4-10 layers of walls before they could get into the hive. No one wants that.

Apop has spent a lot of time considering balance and game design. That doesn't mean every decision is 100%, and CM is a very complex game mode, but it generally means that any change that doesn't have some clear gameplay benefits has probably been considered or rejected either because it's inferior or not technically feasible.

At least you tried constructive criticism. I sill don't get the oddly hostile response, though. If it bothers you that bad, I'm not forcing you to read the ideas.

What's so funny about this is you suggest changes that would make the game worse, without even understanding why they're bad.

I'll start off by saying that only a few of these (mostly the map changes and the removal of cheap items/classes such as SADAR) are 100% my ideas. This list is a collection of ideas I've heard from ooc, deadchat, and casual banter. I don't agree with some of them, but included them at the request of others.

For example, not allowing humans to escape from a xeno's grab or a nest is a terrible change, because it completely removes any counterplay from the marine from the moment they are grabbed.

The sentiment in the movies and games is that one you've been carried away, you're effectively dead. Unless your buddies mount a rescue mission and retrieve you, you will die. The changes make it harder for a marine to be grabbed, but once the xeno grabs him, if he can haul him off, he's a goner. He can still be rescued and have the larvae extracted, but he won't be able to break out and wreak havoc on the hive.

The whole point of allowing helmets to block huggers, marines to unhug other marines, marines to escape nests, and surgery to remove larvae before they burst is to provide marines counterplay.

Other than marines escaping alone, only one of those things was suggested to be removed and Apophis already said no, so I don't see how this is relevant. Not being able to cut yourself out prevents Ramboing as marines will be less likely to travel alone.

You also dislike xenos having doors for some reason. I don't really understand where this stems from, but without doors making a defensible hive is pretty impossible, and the way xeno players would adapt would be to spam sticky resin (which marine players hate far more than doors) and eventually just use tunnels and walls from early on to seal things off, meaning marines would have to cut through 4-10 layers of walls before they could get into the hive. No one wants that.

If they were used as intended, I would have no problem with doors. As they are now, the checkerboard pattern not only is immersion breaking but it's physically impossible to do on anything but a top down, 2d plane. If there was a way to prevent the checkerboard, I'd be fine with them.

Apop has spent a lot of time considering balance and game design. That doesn't mean every decision is 100%, and CM is a very complex game mode, but it generally means that any change that doesn't have some clear gameplay benefits has probably been considered or rejected either because it's inferior or not technically feasible.

I respect what Apop has done. Colonial Marines is by far my favorite server and I'm grateful for the chance to be a part of the community. I wouldn't have written 14 (really about 10 without formatting) pages of suggestions if I didn't care about the server.


NOTE: As I was clicking send the first time, I had a campus wide power outage. Fortunately, Chrome kept most of this post intact though some things may be a bit off.