Current Server Situation Discussion: Cats out of the bag edition

[SecretStamos (Joshuu)]

As I've said, there are probably better ways to go about this. However, its at a point where this was bound to happen.

I keep logs when i can/and or remember (so I didn't collect logs for specifically Abby). I usually clear them out from time to time because there are some truly great moments that happen on this server and its always fun to save it for future reference. However, this will seem like a very personal attack because as I've said,

I have lost faith in the due process this server claims to have.I would have made a post in Admin Reports. However this was the route I had to take because of that very reason of my lack of faith in due process.

I do understand people make mistakes. However this does not seem to be a trend of mistakes, this seems a trend of unprofessionalism, which as run unhampered. Why has it? There could be many reasons. I am as clearly said not privy to them. Could be favoritism, it could be that you all stand together on things, it could be many things. I have yet to see much evidence in the way of saying this is a bunch of mistakes.

That is the reason why also I have so many events. These logs aren't even old. There's just such a volume of evidence. I put it all up because otherwise you will brush it off.

EDIT: Added a sentence up there.

I have lost faith in the due process this server claims to have.I would have made a post in Admin Reports. However this was the route I had to take because of that very reason of my lack of faith in due process.

We take all reports very seriously. That being said, the majority of them are misleading.

But I'd like to draw attention to the fact that we've removed respected staff from our team over such reports. SAS was retired over a report of his conduct one round. He was very well respected in the community and the staff (and a personal friend of mine), but it happened regardless. The same goes for a number of individuals in the past, including several high-ranking staff.

[Rahlzel]

I'd like this thread to stay open so we can keep the vent unblocked, as it were. I think some important points are being made here on all sides, regardless of whether or not our staff chat was "leaked", which I couldn't care less about unless it's a development secret that we want to surprise our community with.

[Artouris]

We take all reports very seriously. That being said, the majority of them are misleading.

But I'd like to draw attention to the fact that we've removed respected staff from our team over such reports. SAS was retired over a report of his conduct one round. He was very well respected in the community and the staff (and a personal friend of mine), but it happened regardless. The same goes for a number of individuals in the past, including several high-ranking staff.

Which is strange. I remember SAS resigned actually. Not was forcibly retired as you write here. Actually something tells me it was inevitable that he was going to resign anyways. Not by the changing of the seasons as some say, but as of what is happening right now.

While yes, it does happen, but this is different is it not? I remember Abby supposedly moved down to just a coder. Back in three months she's at it again. She was forcibly told to apologize, she did not want to admit it herself recently. Not to mention the apology itself sounds hollow. She's had her developer powers. Shes been taunting people with them. Shes threaten mutes, shes threatened bans, if it does not please her it does not fly. If she wishes to be a god of this server, she has failed at it.

You say you take them(Reports) seriously, but has any actual real punishment been issued in this matter? Has evidence been overlooked in favor of protecting staff members? I ask because I feel like it has sometimes. It will be in this case as well I fear.

You can take the report seriously, but in ones own interest. You can say they're misleading or incorrect, when you skip over the evidence that points otherwise. Now I'm not saying they're all as so. But I don't have faith there isn't some perceivable failure rate. Not in that we were wrong about it accidentally, but because we were wrong about it by covering our tracks.

Not to mention your deleting of posts. I see TotalAnarchy's is gone. I can only assume in that writing this post many other posts will also be gone. What happened to their opinions?

What happened to no tyranny?

What happened to the professionalism?

What happened to this server?

EDIT: Sorry if it sounds a bit weird but i wrote this post before it was locked. I'm posting it now that its unlocked.

[Jeser]

Points, that were raised by Artouris, are interesting for many people. I've heard about some of these situations. But only now they were, kinda, summed up a bit. There ARE problems and now what important is how this will end. What consequences will be after this all end.

Azmodan, please, read biggest Artouris' comment before commenting. It's not being salty. Quite concrete points were made and you can't just turn from this.

Also, thanks for leaving post opened.

[Adjective]

I will say in the most prophetic foreboding, that your interest is to have Absynth fired and that you as an individual are demonstrating a will to one-sidedly present information to get the community to rally behind you for that request.

The fact you were able to convince a current or ex-staff member to leak information to you is in my eyes irreparable. I am a member of staff that is very difficult to find negative judgment or wholehearted opinions from due to my ideal of avoiding negativity. However, it crosses a line when you break confidentiality. Especially when the person who shared the information was most plausible to be a friend.

[DMAN]

Sometimes the council goes public, and it has to fess up. No need to jab someone for doing a little digging for the better, eh?

[apophis775]

For the record, we did talk with, and discuss Abby saying that.

Your taking a conversation, out of context.

Notice how, whoever posted it, didn't post anything leading up to that, or us talking with her about that.

We vent a bit in Staffchat, which is too be expected by all server (just look at the entire released logs from other servers).


The problem i have here, is not necessarily with the content, but with the violation of trust. I'm already fairly certain who did this, and if they come forward, they can talk to me about it.

As many/most of you know, due to my background before CM, I take violations of trust VERY seriously.

[Jeser]

Hm, weird point, Adjective. Personally I don't want Abby to get fired. She is good at her place, she is awesome dev and can do amazing stuff. Problem in behaviour and attitude.

Also, you keep talking about one-sidedly presenting information and facts, though still didn't make a counter arguments to Arttouris points.

Secuty leaks are always bad, though, this time, I'm glad this happened, because before this I was on Abby's side.

[Artouris]

I will say in the most prophetic foreboding, that your interest is to have Absynth fired and that you as an individual are demonstrating a will to one-sidedly present information to get the community to rally behind you for that request.

The fact you were able to convince a current or ex-staff member to leak information to you is in my eyes irreparable. I am a member of staff that is very difficult to find negative judgment or wholehearted opinions from due to my ideal of avoiding negativity. However, it crosses a line when you break confidentiality. Especially when the person who shared the information was most plausible to be a friend.

I ask then, how does one obtain such concrete evidence to prove such a point? While she would abuse her powers, she will never say that she thinks shes above everyone on the server because the amount of people who go on there and have had difficulties with her before would instantly report it. Also I have had no work in convincing. The most I ever did was ask for the permission to use the image. I was shown it if anything.

Its not my interest to have abby fired. I don't have much of a interest in other than exposing the issue for what it is. I think her unprofessionalism however has gotten out of hand. I would be totally fine if she stayed, because she has done some great work for the server. However that work does not give a "Get out of jail free" card because of it. We are all (in theory in real life) subject to the same laws and are expected to follow them. That's what this server in theory has.

I'm fine with that I am probably at this point irreparable in people's views. Sometimes it has to be done, no one who is corrupt enjoys the people who come in to manage the corruption. I have decided that despite the weight of the opposition who would defend her, that this was in a way worth writing.

It was worth the risk of being banned, muted, of being humilated, of being outcasted, for the chance to improve or help the server for the better.

EDIT: Venting is fine, however even in context that's referring to the apologize she had to issue. I can only say that it isn't the first time in staff chat she goes and says shes above the rules. I can understand that things get frustrating, but her conduct and her statement there, which she has shared multiple times and we've seen the actions of her defense that it rings true.

[DMAN]

No one wants the community sliced up, in fact, we all(mostly) want it to be united better and more fluid. We want to all work swimmingly, not against a current of broken up updates and such. Regardless, it happens, so no dwelling on that. Just have a good vent and clear your mind, gotta keep a community together for it to even be a community. Otherwise it's just a hosh-posh of bullshit, and no one wants that. Keep it classy, friends.

[Azmodan412]

Points, that were raised by Artouris, are interesting for many people. I've heard about some of these situations. But only now they were, kinda, summed up a bit. There ARE problems and now what important is how this will end. What consequences will be after this all end.

Azmodan, please, read biggest Artouris' comment before commenting. It's not being salty. Quite concrete points were made and you can't just turn from this.

Also, thanks for leaving post opened.

Read the second half of my post: Shut up and enjoy what the staff worked their asses off to give us.

[DMAN]

Read the second half of my post: Shut up and enjoy what the staff worked their asses off to give us.

A bit of shuffling for the better is fine. Don't try to boss fellow members, they have the right to say as they please. Plus, it's nothing of ill-tempered thought or trash talk, so why attempt to silence it? Let people speak.

[Adjective]

Nobody will be punished for sharing information like you did Arty. But it doesn't stop you from being disliked for being involved with someone who breaks confidentiality trusts. Feel from my perspective the emotions you would feel if one of your friends lied to you and shared information from an area they know is private.

[DMAN]

Nobody will be punished for sharing information like you did Arty. But it doesn't stop you from being disliked for being involved with someone who breaks confidentiality trusts. Feel from my perspective the emotions you would feel if one of your friends lied to you and shared information from an area they know is private.

Indeed, shouldn't have to worry about that, but things like this happen. It's not too bad, and it's just a minor skipping stone for a point. Wouldn't get too attached to it and dwell too much, it's all fine.

[forwardslashN]

Notice how, whoever posted it, didn't post anything leading up to that, or us talking with her about that.

Can we get the logs of the conversation?

I don't want to see Abby removed because I enjoy her updates, but this is not something I can just ignore and pretend isn't a big deal. Because it is, and it seriously changed my perspective on her character.

[LocalizedDownpour]

Can we get the logs of the conversation?

I don't want to see Abby removed because I enjoy her updates, but this is not something I can just ignore and pretend isn't a big deal. Because it is, and it seriously changed my perspective on her character.

I honestly doubt more logs will be released.

[DMAN]

Indeed, no need for more. Then again, nothing should be hidden aside from secret updates of surprise imho, but people have the right to their privacy and privatized convos. Just let it be, eh?

[forwardslashN]

I honestly doubt more logs will be released.

That's understandable. I think a part of the issue is that there is a big block of ice between what the general public knows and what goes on behind the scenes. I just want to be reassured that it was handled; if Abby wants to comment on this, that's fine too. In the interest of full disclosure, I reported Abby as a predator a while back. The topic was listed as being investigated, then it was promptly locked and moved. I still don't know if anything was done about it, since there was no further communication. I thought it was handled in one way or another, but this thread brought on some concern. So that's my reason for posting here.

[MasterZ01]

Why is the Staff chat exempt from evidence. I understand if confidentiality is truly important, but If it's relevant to the discussion then it shouldn't be ignored. I'm not certain the person who leaked said post should be punished, I'm not a person in favor of Punishing whistle blowers.

[Adjective]

PM Apophis in a respectable manner about the logs and concerns and I'm sure he'll understand. Or request so formally here. Only Apophis or Rahlzel can approve us giving you anything from the Staff Chat in forms of pictures.

[Lostmixup]

Stop being salty and enjoy what the staff worked their asses off to bring us.

Some of the complaints are valid to be fair. It's not saltiness. Perhaps a bit of bias, but not saltiness.

[apophis775]

The issue, is that many of the complainmts take the form of "salt" and not "constructive criticism".

[Arachnidnexus]

In all honesty, I have not reported admin issues because I have lost faith in the process. Staff can claim that the process is taken seriously, but I've seen cases dismissed or brushed aside with "this will be taken care of" with little change in how the complaint causer behaves in game. Frankly put, Abby is right in that for her, the rules are just suggestions. I expect this situation to resolve like this: Apophis says Abby has been talked to, Abby takes a break, Abby comes back and does the same thing she always does, rinse and repeat.

[Westhybrid]

Why is the Staff chat exempt from evidence. I understand if confidentiality is truly important, but If it's relevant to the discussion then it shouldn't be ignored. I'm not certain the person who leaked said post should be punished, I'm not a person in favor of Punishing whistle blowers.

Doesn't particularly matter what you're in favor of, or not in favor of. For someone to leak screenshots of our Slack is nauseatingly annoying. Our confidentiality has always been important.

Furthermore, to call it evidence is ridiculous in itself. To even imply anyone is on trial here. This angry mob mentality has devolved the conversation far beyond being any sort of respectable discussion about Abby's or any other staff member's conduct.

[LocalizedDownpour]

That's understandable. I think a part of the issue is that there is a big block of ice between what the general public knows and what goes on behind the scenes. I just want to be reassured that it was handled; if Abby wants to comment on this, that's fine too. In the interest of full disclosure, I reported Abby as a predator a while back. The topic was listed as being investigated, then it was promptly locked and moved. I still don't know if anything was done about it, since there was no further communication. I thought it was handled in one way or another, but this thread brought on some concern. So that's my reason for posting here.

Normally. From my two weeks experience at any rate, most of our investigations are 99% transparent to the point of us posting everything in the chosen thread for all to see. I'm certain one of the heads will be more inclined to answer anything you want to know in one way or anouther in regards to this incident in question, as I agree, this is a big deal, and I'll say it was a pretty big deal in our Slack too when it happened.

This is of course only my perspective, and I'm only a moderator, I'm in the dark about alot of things too.